[nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
Nancy Coffman
nancylc at sprynet.com
Mon Oct 15 00:39:42 UTC 2012
As far as Internet options, most providers have teers. I am on a medium
teer that does most things but buffers video.
The Department of Labor has pages with statistics on what types of jobs are
hiring right now. It also may depend on where you live. Many information
techology professions don't pay as high a wage as they used to. I would be
tempted to google something like "high demand jobs" or look at the labor
market trends on usa.gov.
Nancy Coffman
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Anonymous
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 11:08 AM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
http://information4all.fav.cc/
forgot to add this
On 10/14/12, Anonymous <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well thanks Lee and I also wanted to ask something, due to my problems
> with math I do not know if i was never thought it in a way, I could
> understand or if I just gave up on some of the math in high school I
> live in the state of MI and will be moving out in the month of
> December and I have low amounts of income until, I am able to get a
> job and go to college of some short, I wanted to know if you know of
> any cheep relible ISP's with good down and up speeds. The problem is
> that I am use to 30 down and 5 up high speed. I wanted to know to do
> tasks such as skype, teamtalk, email, my website, and connecting a
> braille plus, what service you would you advise and what speed. I also
> want to get a phone that HAS no limit on texts, calling and don't
> really care about web data as many people still to this day, do not
> know what putting a password or a good password that I am able to
> guess. My family is just good at using their home phone number as a
> wireless password. I also want to go into IT, but I am not quite sure
> what and from what I know it is not going to be programming. Can you
> please provide me a link to all the diffrent, high demand options?
> Also, what would you advise for (a blind enough person to consiter
> maybe having eyesight sometime down the road) to go into for IT?
>
> Doug and all others intrusted, I am making a website for information
> for the blind. If we would have understood some things, it would have
> been a less painful road. Please do not spam as it is a free host and
> if I use up to much CPU on their systems, they will remove my whole
> thing. I will post it in here and other groups when I am done.
>
> Request for the website: If you would like to share your personal
> story about how you got a job and what helped and that kind of thing.
> Or what peace of advice you have for others. It can be anything
> regarding can be anything as my website allows for creative and
> diffrent thinking.. I would like at least 6 of these storys.I will put
> your story in whole with no editing other then grammer things I
> notice, be mindful of what detail you provide.If you wish not to have
> your name in the story, please let me know and I will make sure it is
> not there., I respect that. This is not my primary email, but if you
> would like to be a part of it please contact: blindhelpfultech+tech
> with the subject "tell my story". I will understand if there is no
> takers to start off with as I have no content on the website yet.
>
> On 10/14/12, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Mine was software for DOS. There were 2 versions -- Vert Plus which came
>> with it's own synth that sounded like it had a Swedish accent (I named it
>> Swen and I used it at work), and Personal Vert, which was less expensive,
>> and came with an external synth that was annoying to listen to. It was
>> lovingly called the little pervert...*smile*
>> I always thought that Vert Plus was nastier than the little pervert as
>> for
>> some reason some of the sentences came out sounding like profanity.
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Doug Lee" <dgl at dlee.org>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:01 AM
>> Subject: [nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
>>
>>
>> Quick reply to one question from Laura: I used both PC Vert and Soft
>> Vert! Wonder which one you had. PC Vert was an external, monotone
>> speech box, while Soft Vert was software, as the name implies. I
>> thought Soft Vert sounded a bit like a bored version of DecTalk. PC
>> Vert was what the U of Illinois Rehab Center had available, so I used
>> that quite a lot.
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:49:04PM -0500, qubit wrote:
>> With an attitude like that, you will go far Nadia.
>> Although I don't have the same eye condition you have (my eyes didn't
>> die),
>> I had very low and gradually decreasing vision in one eye over the space
>> of
>> 40 years, and so I overused my eye all through school, grad school and
>> career. After years of intense and sometimes stressful work, I began to
>> suffer from anxiety over the fact that everything depended on my fragile
>> eye
>> as I pushed my vision to the limit.
>> I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
>> At one point I got myself a screen reader to help with reading emails,
>> and
>> that was really amazing in helping with eye strain. But it was an
>> awkward
>> screen reader to use -- anyone else use Vert?
>> Then came windows, which went from being a novelty to being a requirement
>> in
>> the workplace.
>> I got jaws for windows (not sure why I picked jaws rather than
>> windoweyes).
>> But yes, you have to force yourself to make time for keeping up with
>> access
>> tech.
>>
>> As for programming, I don't think it is that much more difficult for a
>> blind
>> person, as most the time you spend thinking rather than reading or
>> writing.
>> If you have good math skills, it is not bad at all.
>> My only difficulty now is that I still miss seeing the screen when I am
>> coding. Using speech is not as natural for me as visualizing the code
>> and
>> structure is easier when I can see the code. That is where a braille
>> display is helpful, but I am not a fast braille reader.
>> Well, good luck and happy hacking all.
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Anonymous" <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 1:41 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>
>>
>> I have learned the lesson over time that personal story written by
>> someone on the list is so true. I had many people point out to me and
>> this is sad in a way, but I guess has been the problem. When people
>> tell you just to use your vision to get by, it is fine until you don't
>> have the option of giving up or trying your best, for me that has
>> never been good enough. I am moving out soon and in ways from what my
>> friend stated you are using more ideas that they give you for complete
>> blindness. I looked into what and how I was going about things before
>> I learned the light went on in my head that maybe just seeing is not
>> good enough anymore. I have a really long personal story to go along
>> with this. I am sorry in advance for the long email.
>>
>> Starting my 8th grade year, I noticed that I could not read the board
>> in school, even if I was about 2 feet or less away from it. I know
>> braille enough to pick up on what I have lost so far, thankfully that
>> is the case. I learned it my 4th grade year in about one year and it
>> was at one point faster then my print reading. That was until I hit my
>> 6th grade year and "I thought I just did not have the time." In all
>> truth looking back on it, I did not think I was going to need it. As
>> one would think well my vision is fine now and what is the need for
>> it?
>>
>> When I was in fourth grade due to my eye condition, I lost all the
>> remaining eyesight in my left eye and according to my family I did not
>> even tell them. My eye condition is very rare and if you get it before
>> your ten from what I read you have a 50/50 chance of having no
>> eyesight. Growing up in school, I was always told use your eyes and I
>> would always recant I am using them to the best of my ability.
>>
>> I started working with computers when I was about 9 around my 8th
>> grade year, my family and I could not put two and two together about
>> why I would go through one computer system, every 3 months. In some
>> shape or forum it would be unusable. I kept claiming, I know what I am
>> doing and they would always say then why do we have to get another
>> system repaired again. They also stated and you want to go into IT? I
>> said of course technology has been a huge tool in my life and I enjoy
>> it a lot. They would always say good luck getting a job with braking
>> tech all the time.
>>
>> . My freshman year and maybe my whole life. When no one was reading
>> things to me. I had to take a test without anyone reading it and I
>> mainly played fill in the gap and hope what I am replying is right. At
>> least well my aid was away, school became a nightmare.
>>
>> My soft more year in high school, my left eye kept watering and they
>> kept saying it is allergens and I kept saying then why does it feel
>> like you just sliced my eye with a knife in many spots and why does it
>> keep watering. It got worse and worse. Well after four months of
>> debate and many eye doctor visits, I found out my eye was dying in my
>> head and I had two options. Mind you, I was only 16 at that time and
>> it felt like a huge choice and I just didn't want to regret the option
>> I made. The two options were remove the eye, have another surgery and
>> wait 6 months and maybe it would not even work. I said to my mom on
>> the way to the eye doctor before I knew my two options. "why the heck
>> do I even have this eye, I can't see out of it and it constantly
>> causes pain and problems" "What good is it doing for me being there
>> anyway?" I ended up getting rid of it and just being done with half
>> the eye problems.
>>
>> Shortly after this problem, this happen in reply to my actions and
>> statements.
>>
>> 10th grade year I was just about ready to pull my hair out as it
>> seemed, I kept telling people I can't read or see that or it is to
>> far away or just email me the darn thing. I kept getting the reply
>> "you could see that last year". I kept saying well it is not last year
>> now is it, it is a new year with new things and maybe new things I
>> can't read. After that remark I was told by my mom once I said I feel
>> like I am missing a lot more then I use to. She said, I agree and some
>> of the evidence is your emails that don't turn out with right spelling
>> and missing words in the middle of what statement you are typing. She
>> said to me just wait, in a day we have a low vision evaluation. I said
>> ok and I was also not thinking or knowing what she meant by that, but
>> I just went with it.
>>
>> The light went on for all of us once he said your "legally blind" and
>> I said what does that mean to me other then just another term. He said
>> well it means a lot in services and might have been the reason why you
>> broke things and could not read much. After that happened I went down
>> to the center in Kalmazoo for a combined 6 and a half months with the
>> summers, I spent there.
>>
>> The first summer may I mind you I spent the first 4 weeks, killing
>> myself over the darn keybourd test, why I did not understand. It was
>> the numbers and the shift options, I kept missing or mixing up. After
>> getting that down.
>>
>> The second summer I walked into my class again. I walked into my
>> technology class and he said after looking at how I use the computer
>> on a normal day with nothing extra to help. Your eye looks like it is
>> going to fall out of your head with the amount of strain and I said so
>> it was not just me skipping around and missing things. He said nope,
>> just someone who has never been told about AT? I looked at him and he
>> explained I had two options at that point, JAWS or ZoomText. After a
>> week I noticed that I just could not stand zoomtext, I told him well
>> first off if I need to I can use windows magnifier, but if I can't see
>> past that amount of zoom, I should be using JAWS anyway. He later
>> noted in my report the following:
>>
>> 1. The school never took the time to explain other options and I said
>> at one point, I feel like I am starting over with technology and using
>> AT. He noted that was very true and he understands that everyone feels
>> that way at first.
>> 2. I had a very visual understanding of windows, but give me jaws and
>> ask what a heading is, I would just ask him to explain.
>> 3. I wanted jaws to prepare for the worst and I just wanted my
>> computer to look as normal as possible along with using something that
>> I will not have to relearn. If something happened.
>>
>> I went home, started a great debate with my school after a year and a
>> half of fighting, I have access to jaws and a laptop.
>>
>> A few things I would have never learned if I would have not wanted to
>> know how things work:
>> HTML and W3C guidelines Alone with windows shortcuts that I never
>> heard of before. Someone called me and said my mouse broke, can I shut
>> down the system, until I get a new mouse and I said sure you can and
>> walked them through it.
>>
>> My teacher at school, I broke my computer. The whole desktop was
>> zoomed in and I said try hitting CRL and moving the mouse wheel and it
>> worked. She called IT they were sitting there, watching me walk
>> through it and they said I thought it was the video card, I never
>> thought of looking there. They left and said to her just ask nadia
>> before we get a phone call next time.
>>
>> My point being I have learned after the third summer there "i am
>> faster when I am blindfolded vs looking at things. That was also noted
>> and it hit me, the problem is I had my eyesight doing everything it
>> couldn't.
>>
>> I am now 19 and am starting to relize that braille is a priority just
>> as much as learning jaws was. I have only used jaws for 1 year and 6
>> months combined with a full copy and not just a 40 minute demo, but
>> for some reason I still get the phone calls asking things from people
>> who have been blind there whole life.
>>
>> It has come to the point where I call places no longer saying I am
>> visually impaired, I say blind. It works better as they tend to be
>> more detailed and then I can ask my visual questions and most of them
>> will just say, you use to have more eyesight and still am a little bit
>> of a visual person and I say yes and end of phone call. When I started
>> saying that it was my way of accepting the fact that yes my vision is
>> not reliable for most things, I was trying to have it do what it could
>> not..
>>
>> Some side notes: I walked into MCB the first summer and they said what
>> size font would you like your documents in and I replied 12. They said
>> well something here does not match. I said what do you mean? People
>> are telling you that that is as big as they can get things? I said
>> nope, I am just use to it. They said well do me a favor stop being use
>> to killing your eyes from here on out. I said ok and I at the age of
>> 16 had no idea what they were trying to tell me. I now after meeting
>> someone and talking with them about it, he said to me they are trying
>> to kindly say, your not trying to kill your eye by doing what you were
>> use to here. I said something to the effect to them, well most of the
>> time I am told it can't be more then 3 pages you print. They said
>> well, here we do not give a care about the paper we go through as long
>> as we are not killing your eyes. I then from there am use to size 26
>> and when I walked back into school and said it is not big enough they
>> said "14 use to be ok, and I said well use to I was killing my eye
>> going by something I did not no any better." I said to my friend
>> awhile back, when I started using jaws for a year, I feel like maybe
>> my eyesight is not as bad. he said trust me it is, but you have
>> learned what strain is and what amounts you were doing when, you did
>> not have anything bigger when you requested it. I went back to the
>> center and the notes were the following:
>> 1. I think she has stopped using her vision as much and she is more
>> productive that way.
>> 2. She seems to be ok with the facts now
>>
>> Point just due to the fact of you being use to something does not mean
>> it was not killing your eyes to start off with. A good friend of mine
>> told me the following:
>>
>> Size 14 ? He said "That is torcher" I said why? He said think about it
>> anything you are pushed to do that creates the amount of strain your
>> eye was under for 14 years and created pain is in my book the word
>> "torcher".
>>
>> The top things a blind person has in their toolkit when getting a job
>> and keeping it is the following:
>>
>> -Willingness to take work home with them and learn
>> -Happy to learn new things
>> -Advocate for themselves
>> -
>> Most of all motivation, it is different for each person, but part of
>> my motivation that people say they cannot seem to understand is.
>> -I want to be productive, but when I have time off, I don?t use it for
>> time off.
>> Example my summer job review, your always doing something on your time
>> off, I don?t understand. Do nothing for once. It is your day off why
>> are you still around doing things? ?Even when there is ?nothing to
>> do?, you find something to do.? I was always told even if there is no
>> ?task to be done, there is always something else to be done? Most of
>> the time that is learning or making your job more effective.
>> -I want to learn new things; in fact, that is what I do in my spare time
>> -Kill myths and untrue things about blindness
>> -Help others
>> -Do the job to my best and find ways to do it better
>> -Insults are a challenge for me to do even better at things along with
>> degrading terms
>> Example: you spend too much time on something =I find another way to
>> do it and do it as well.
>> Example: Your so picky it drives me crazy = be more picky and proficient
>> One thing that motivates me more than that though is learning new
>> things, I like to learn new things and say I learned myself. That for
>> some reason never is old.
>> Something that drives people nuts that helps me out a lot though is
>> being positive. Someone said to me why are you so happy all the
>> time??? I said, I may not be but why must I drag you down as well?
>>
>> Work ethic and willingness to learn gets you far and as one person
>> said "one thing blind people have going for them, is we are use to
>> challeges and having to overcome them. I agree with that as well.
>>
>> With regards,
>> Nadia
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/13/12, david hertweck <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Yes as a computer scientist / engineer doing design / architecture work
>>> gives a person more flexibility. Also management.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Louis Maher
>>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:50 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>
>>> Another answer is to study as much math and other sciences as possible
>>> so
>>> that you can become a scientist and can design the algorithms and not
>>> just
>>> follow the lead of others.
>>>
>>> You must love math and physics, or some other science, to make this
>>> work.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Louis Maher
>>> 713-444-7838
>>> ljmaher at swbell.net
>>> http://www.nfbtx.org/localchapters/houston
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> majolls at cox.net
>>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:10 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>
>>> I did paint a rather dark picture, but I was just stating facts. I
>>> wanted
>>> to make sure that budding programmers knew what they were getting into.
>>> That might make someone think twice whether programming (and the
>>> challenges
>>> that go along with it for a blind person) is really their thing. Do
>>> they
>>> want to put up with the daily challenges? Doing extra work that
>>> normally
>>> sighted people don't have to do? Perhaps not going as fast and being
>>> penalized for your vision which imposes that limitation ... being judged
>>> for
>>> something you have no control over? On this last point, you probably
>>> will
>>> experience this in any job, not just programming. That's why I said you
>>> need to have your solutions and skills up to snuff before you get into
>>> the
>>> job. That way you know what accomodations to ask for and you know they
>>> work. And that's why you need to think about the duties of the job
>>> BEFORE
>>> you get there .. so your solutions address as many issues as possible,
>>> and
>>> you don't have very many issues and surprises on the job. It will save
>>> you
>>> a lot of headaches. When I started working back in the late 70's, I
>>> hadn't
>>> put 2 and 2 together. I was a naive 22-year old kid who thought the
>>> world
>>> was my oyster and had no concept of being measured on a job. We were
>>> all
>>> told we could do anything we wanted to do, but nobody told me that I
>>> needed
>>> to be aware that the disability would throw me curves and make it more
>>> difficult to achieve what everyone else took for granted. I guess I was
>>> dumb.
>>> I had no idea how much slower I was or what impact poor vision would
>>> have
>>> on
>>> my career. I hadn't learned Braille and screen readers hadn't been
>>> invented
>>> yet. So all I had was my vision and reading print. I found out real
>>> fast
>>> that others could do things in less time and It was a rude awakening
>>> when
>>> I
>>> realized that I was being punished for something that was beyond my
>>> control.
>>> I'm not sure I would have listened to someone at that age if they told
>>> me
>>> to
>>> be aware of what problems the disability might bring, but I wish someone
>>> had
>>> told me of what to expect. It's your career that's at stake. I might
>>> have
>>> tried to prepare more, although at that time a lot of the technology
>>> wasn't
>>> even around. I'd just hate for someone else to experience any of this
>>> when
>>> maybe a few words of warning might help them.
>>>
>>> You know, I've heard blind people say ... "I don't want to be treated
>>> any
>>> differently than a normally sighted person", but do they really know
>>> what
>>> they're asking for? In the end, that's exactly how the employer will
>>> treat
>>> them. And they'll measure them against the standard that other normally
>>> sighted have to work toward. That's why they HAVE to be prepared and
>>> know
>>> their solutions ahead of time. If they'll get what they ask for and it
>>> might not be what they expect and/or hope for.
>>>
>>> And here's something that may be interesting to some of you. Personal
>>> story.
>>>
>>> I had been programming for a number of years and I didn't have any
>>> answers
>>> to the issues I've stated. I was using my vision all the time to
>>> program
>>> and simply didn't see a solution. I was taking a programming design
>>> course
>>> and the book we were reading talked about making software
>>> efficient/faster.
>>> The book eventually said ... "if you don't change the fundamental
>>> architecture of the software, you'll only be able to go as fast as the
>>> limitation the architecture imposes upon you". When I read that, the
>>> lightbulb went on. I realized that as long as I used my vision to do
>>> the
>>> job, I was limited to what my vision could do. If I was going to be
>>> more
>>> efficient ... if I was going to have any chance of going faster ... or
>>> doing
>>> this more efficiently ... I would have to STOP USING MY VISION to the
>>> extent
>>> possible. In other words, find an alternate method. That's something I
>>> had
>>> NEVER considered because being raised with vision .. it's drilled into
>>> your
>>> head that you read print, that you just go get glasses, or you just do
>>> the
>>> best you can and basically give up because that's all you can do.
>>>
>>> The big takeaway was to eliminate the vision. I'm a firm believer that
>>> this
>>> is what you have to do. Find a different solution that removes the
>>> problem.
>>> You know the old adage ... if you keep doing something the same way, why
>>> should you expect a different answer? I think you have to get rid of
>>> the
>>> method that doesn't work to expect any sort of improvement.
>>>
>>> Solutions to that issue ... learn Braille .. use a Braille display ..
>>> learn
>>> Jaws (or some screen reader). Know how fast you read with your vision
>>> and
>>> strive to get to where you can read faster with the alternate tools
>>> since
>>> you know that the vision is your Achiles hheel.
>>>
>>> Since then I have measured myself. I know that I only read print at
>>> 130wpm.
>>> No wonder people (when reading a page of text) get done in half the
>>> time!!
>>> I have since found out that normal people read at around 250wpm. And
>>> that's
>>> one reason that I've learned Braille. Well, I'm only reading 65 wpm in
>>> Braille, but I know with print, I don't have any chance of exceeding the
>>> 130
>>> barrier. Fifty + years of experience there. Maybe with Braille I'll
>>> eventually get to 200.
>>>
>>> Sorry, this was a rather lengthy email. But maybe the idea stated by
>>> Clint
>>> Eastwood in his Dirty Harry movies .. "A man has to know his
>>> limitations"
>>> ... has been brought out here. Know them. Know what problems they'll
>>> impose upon you. Then try to find alternate solutions that will help
>>> you
>>> overcome them. It's the only way I can see to help you compete in this
>>> world. If you don't do that, you simply get run over.
>>>
>>> ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>> I don't know if you meant it the way it sounds but I don't think you
>>>> have to be a hotshot to program in java or python.
>>>>
>>>> I was once in a job interview and they asked me which programming
>>>> languages I knew. I said I know all of them. Give me a week with any
>>>> programming language and I'll be an expert in it. Maybe not the
>>>> ultimate expert but an expert none the less. I got the job and they
>>>> said it was that answer more than any other that got me the job.
>>>>
>>>> IMO, it's important to look upon the challenge of learning something
>>>> new as an opportunity. Think of how much more valuable you'll be to
>>>> your company once you've learned that new programming language or
>>>> operating system. Think of how proud you'll be of yourself for having
>>>> succeeded at something that even sighted people struggle with. IMO,
>>>> it's no different from blindness itself. It kinda sucks but the only
>>>> thing
>>>>
>>>> to do is to attack the challenge.
>>>> In fact, I'd say that's one way we blind people have the advantage. We
>>>> know how to overcome challenges.
>>>>
>>>> PS: I'm willing to admit that what I say above might not be literally
>>>> true.
>>>> For example, it may have taken me a little more than a week to become
>>>> an expert in java programming. That might even have taken 2 weeks. :-).
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>>> Freeman
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:15 PM
>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>
>>>> I concur completely with Steve's observations below. These days, in a
>>>> business or even government environment, less and less traditional
>>>> programming is being done and more and more what programming there is
>>>> is contracted out. Moreover, as Steve says, increasingly, businesses
>>>> and government are buying off-the-shelf software packages (some of
>>>> which are screen-reader-accessible and some of which are not). A few
>>>> hot-shot blind programmers are going into environments such as C# and
>>>> java and more are working in interpretive languages such as Pithon.
>>>> But, as Steve says, a number of us are going into other arenas such as
>>>> network administration.
>>>> Over the past few years, my government agency has gone from a HP
>>>> OpenVMS environment to a windows environment (alas, I wish my agency
>>>> had chosen
>>>> UNIX) and so I'm having to come up to speed rather quickly to become
>>>> an administrator of Windows Server ? 2008 R2 systems. When I began my
>>>> employment 33 years ago, I was actually doing systems programming in
>>>> assembly language and if we wanted data brought into our computer
>>>> systems, we wrote the routines directly to do this including the
>>>> drivers for the hardware that handled the data. No more. As Steve
>>>> says, we have a lot of SQL and other packages running on servers
>>>> running essentially what is Windows 7 on steroids -- Windows Server?
>>>> 2008
>>>> R2.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure I'd advise programming as a good entry-level job path
>>>> today either. But those who find it fascinating *can* find jobs. But
>>>> the environment is much more competitive and fast-paced than it once
>>>> was and many tasks these days are more one-off and less are continuing
>>>> maintenance of existing tasks, at least in my shop.
>>>>
>>>> And all this is complicated by the almost paranoid interest in
>>>> security these days. It often just about takes an act of Congress to
>>>> get a screen-reader on one's work station now, for example. This may
>>>> just be an artifact of the electric power system (where I work) but I
>>>> suspect it goes further than this. I remember some time this year when
>>>> one fellow was trying to figure out how to hook up his laptop with all
>>>> his specialized blind-friendly programming tools on secure corporate
>>>> networks where such connectivity is basically forbidden. I have
>>>> somewhat the same problem in that I can't hook up my BrailleSensePLUS
>>>> to my workstation without violating policies.
>>>>
>>>> So the environment isn't as straightforward as it once was.
>>>>
>>>> And I, too, take extra time and seldom put in for comp time even
>>>> though I'm allowed to. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>> Jacobson
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:12 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>
>>>> Generally I would agree with both of you, too, but what I would say
>>>> for my two cents is that I don't know that I would start out now as a
>>>> programmer if I was looking to work for a company. Certainly there
>>>> are still programming jobs, but there are not the jobs there used to
>>>> be. It is much, much more common now for companies to buy software
>>>> that they can use to perform many of the functions they used to
>>>> accomplish with in-house systems that were designed and written by
>>>> their programmers and analysts. When companies need to have
>>>> programming done, it is far more common now to contract it out or even
>>>> outsource it to off-shore locations.
>>>> However, there is a lot of need yet for people who are skilled in
>>>> database design and knowing how to work with databases which includes
>>>> a thorough knowledge of SQL. SQL isn't programming but is rewarding
>>>> and challenging in its own way. There is quite a bit being done with
>>>> networking, too, and there are some blind people who are involved with
>>>> network administration.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, if one is thinking of developing software and wants to
>>>> write it some themselves, a programming language is very important.
>>>> Also, if one has his or her eyes on a specific area where programming
>>>> is common, learning a programming language is still a good idea. I
>>>> also think there is value to be gained by learning a programming
>>>> language and writing something just to get a sense of what is
>>>> necessary. I wonder, though, what the success rate is for blind
>>>> persons or anyone for that matter, going to school to learn a
>>>> programming language and then getting a good job. I am in a position
>>>> where I work that occasionally has me looking at a COBOL program to
>>>> see what is wrong with it. We still run a good bit of COBOL here, but
>>>> the maintenance of COBOL is contracted out. My value to my company,
>>>> probably more than programming, is my in depth knowledge of how the
>>>> business processes relate to our computer systems. That has allowed
>>>> me to take that expertise and bring it with me as I changed to a
>>>> different computer platform, working primarily with databases. Like
>>>> John, I anticipated where the need would be and felt I could do all
>>>> right in the SQL environment and found reasons to learn quite a bit
>>>> about that, some on my own time, so when there was a push in that
>>>> direction, I had at least some of the tools I needed. For someone
>>>> just starting out in this field, it is very important to look at the
>>>> entire field, get some idea of what is interesting and also what fits
>>>> ones strengths. One also needs to look at what one can do for a long
>>>> enough time to get some understanding of how a given employer does
>>>> business even if it isn't ideal, knowing one might be able to move into
>>>> something they like better having gained that experience.
>>>>
>>>> Fifteen years ago, I would never have believed what a mixed bag
>>>> accessibility still is. Unfortunately, there are going to be
>>>> companies who are using tools that are inaccessible enough to make
>>>> working for that company a loosing bet. I still maintain a hope that
>>>> things will continue to improve, but it can still be a factor.
>>>> Sometimes it is clearly the developers of software who are to blame,
>>>> but some of the problem is that screen reader developers just don't
>>>> have time to implement newer technologies that could be accessible
>>>> because they are so busy chasing the development of the latest
>>>> operating systems. I don't know the answer to that particular
>>>> problem. Anyway, there are probably no exact answers, but hopefully
>>>> our
>>>> responses provide some useful food for thought.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:21:39 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >I pretty much agree with everything you say below although I might
>>>> >not paint quite such a dark picture. But, yeah, I feel I've
>>>> been successful in my career by working harder than everybody else,
>>>> putting in extra time to make up for being slower than the sighted
>>>> guys, and doing a lot of research on my own time.
>>>>
>>>> >I also agree with the point about keeping your skills up. There is
>>>> >this phenomenon I call "backwatering". New technologies tend
>>>> to be inaccessible so a blind technologist doesn't get the assignment
>>>> of working with them. Slowly, he becomes less and less crucial to his
>>>> company because he's working with old technology. Then when layoffs
>>>> come around, he's the one to go. And in some ways, that's only fair.
>>>> After all, he is the least important member of the team.
>>>>
>>>> >IMO, its important to be very aggressive in pursuing new technologies.
>>>> >I taught myself on my own time almost all the skills I use
>>>> in my current job. I am sure there are jobs where that isn't necessary
>>>> but they are few and far between. Also, to some degree it depends on
>>>> what you want out of your career. I work for the University of
>>>> Wisconsin and they don't layoff people very often. But a few years
>>>> ago, I went to my boss and said I thought my skills were being wasted
>>>> and that I could do a lot more, he said, "What's your problem? You're
>>>> still getting paid, aren't you?" But I wasn't satisfied just pulling
>>>> down a paycheck. Plus, I figured that eventually they'd get around to
>>>> getting rid of me. So I switched jobs and got into a different
>>>> department.
>>>>
>>>> >----Original Message-----
>>>> >From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> >majolls at cox.net
>>>> >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:31 AM
>>>> >To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> >Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>>> >Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>
>>>> >Working in the computer field is a challenging experience, especially
>>>> >for a
>>>> blind person (well partially sighted in my case).
>>>> Here are some things to consider:
>>>>
>>>> >Know your craft thoroughly. Be as prepared with your programming
>>>> >languages as you possibly can be. Corporations are looking for
>>>> people that can solve a problem quickly and who know where to go look
>>>> when
>>>> they don??"t know the answers. Therefore, you need to
>>>> be as knowledgeable as you possibly can be in whatever programming
>>>> languages you decide to work in.
>>>>
>>>> > Know your weaknesses and have solutions in place before you go get
>>>> > the job. It??"s a competitive environment out there and the
>>>> people that can get the job done right in the shortest amount of time
>>>> at the least cost are the ones that seem to rise to the top at least in
>>>> my
>>>>
>>>> company.
>>>> You need to know any limitations your disability places on you and you
>>>> need to have a solution BEFORE you go to the job so it doesn??"t hurt
>>>> you in your career and you can keep up with the normally sighted
>>>> people. For example, my reading speed is about 130wpm. A normal
>>>> person
>>>> reads at about 250wpm.
>>>> You can see it will take me twice as long reading as someone else. In
>>>> my daily job, I??"m constantly reading code on the computer monitor.
>>>> So you can see how a normal person without any vision issues will
>>>> finish things before me. Doing your best in this case is not good
>>>> enough because you??"ll always be coming in last. And that equates to
>>>> less money at your performance review. Trust me, I have 30+ years of
>>>> experience to back me up on this. If you think Braille, for example,
>>>> will help overcome slow reading, or using programs such as Jaws, learn
>>>> it BEFORE you get to the job so there??"s no chance of supervisors
>>>> forming
>>>>
>>>> opinions of how you work.
>>>>
>>>> >Know that the job will eventually change, and sooner than later. In
>>>> >my job, new technologies are always coming up. The company
>>>> is looking for faster and better ways of doing things. And that means
>>>> they??"re trying new programming languages, new things to make us
>>>> meaner and leaner programmers. And that means that you have to learn
>>>> quickly, and probably more often than you would like. You may be
>>>> required (not by your employer but just by the fact that you have to
>>>> keep up) to spend extra hours in the evening learning if you don??"t
>>>> have enough time during the day. The years of learning a few things
>>>> for your job and doing that for 5-10 years are gone. Figure on having
>>>> to relearn your job every couple of years depending on what new thing
>>>> is
>>>> coming out.
>>>> You have to ask yourself if you feel like keeping up like that all
>>>> the time, or if your disability will put limitations on you there.
>>>> You are definitely under pressure in these situations.
>>>>
>>>> >Be prepared to work overtime. If you??"re in a professional job such
>>>> >as I am and you??"re not as fast as others, it??"s going to
>>>> take you more hours to do the same work in a time-frame that an
>>>> employer considers normal. I??"ve come to the conclusion I can
>>>> probably never please my employer. Or, if you have to do the training
>>>> thing, you may not get it all done in the course of 8 hours. In my
>>>> job, an 8 hour day is the thing of the past. I work more like a 10
>>>> hour day just to stay even .. to make up for my poor eyesight. Even
>>>> with technology such as screen magnification and speech, and Braille,
>>>> I still work a 10 hour day. With the demands of the job, it??"s just
>>>> the
>>>> standard.
>>>>
>>>> >So consider all these things. Perhaps you can assess your situation
>>>> >and justify going into computer programming. It is a good
>>>> career, but to keep up and compete is a challenge. It??"s even moreso
>>>> with a vision disability in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> >I don't want to throw cold water on things, but I've had a lot of
>>>> >frustration in my career. It's no fun when you come in second
>>>> most of the time and people seem to move ahead of you and nothing
>>>> seems to work.
>>>>
>>>> >---- Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>> >> When I was looking for work with my programming certificate, I got
>>>> >> an offer from the IRS, but the salary was very low, and any
>>>> >> programming would have to be approved by head office in DC. I
>>>> >> declined the offer, and soon got a much better one. Even though I
>>>> >> started at a low, trainee salary, it was still significantly better
>>>> >> than the IRS was offering. Though perhaps IRS salaries are the same
>>>> >> across the country, and only low when compared to average New York
>>>> >> salaries.
>>>> >> Tracy
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > I googled tfor info on the program. A link is below. A one
>>>> >> > paragraph summary is as follows...
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> Program Description: The Programming curriculum prepares clients
>>>> >> >> to work
>>>> >> > in a wide range of programming
>>>> >> >> environments including .NET and JAVA, and other application
>>>> >> >> projects as
>>>> >> > well. Certification exams for JAVA and
>>>> >> >> Microsoft Certified Professional Developer (MCPD) are offered
>>>> >> >> through the
>>>> >> > program. Some prior programming
>>>> >> >> experience is helpful, but not necessary to be successful in
>>>> >> >> this course.
>>>> >> > This program often offers the opportunity to get
>>>> >> >> a commitment for employment with the Internal Revenue Service.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > http://lwsb.org/index.php/general-overview/vocational-catalog/#co
>>>> >> > nt
>>>> >> > e
>>>> >> > nt
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Wasn't it this list where we just had a huge debate about java?
>>>> >> > I'm thinking java programming might be making a huge comeback in
>>>> >> > writing apps for mobile phones. But I'll admit I don't really
>>>> >> > know what I'm talking about. I would note, however, that the link
>>>> >> > above indicates that the Lions web site itself is written in php,
>>>> >> > not .net or
>>>> java.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>> >> > Carcione
>>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 9:38 AM
>>>> >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Hi Daniel.
>>>> >> > I got a programming certificate, after I found I was going
>>>> >> > nowhere with my college degree. I looked around, and found a
>>>> >> > certificate course that taught the languages employers were
>>>> >> > looking for at the time. It was local, not out-of-state.
>>>> >> > If you do go to Lions World, try to make sure that they are
>>>> >> > teaching languages that will actually be in demand.
>>>> >> > Learning programming was a very good move for me. I have a
>>>> >> > secure job that pays well, and is usually interesting. I'm not
>>>> >> > sure if the IRS job pays well, or is interesting.
>>>> >> > My brother is also a blind programmer, working for subcontractors
>>>> >> > to the government. He gets paid OK, but gets laid off every few
>>>> >> > years.
>>>> >> > So your results may vary. But I think he'd rather be programming
>>>> >> > than having a rather dull but secure IRS job.
>>>> >> > HTH.
>>>> >> > Tracy
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> Hello Everyone:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I am legally blind with a background in engineering and
>>>> >> >> manufacturing.
>>>> >> >> After
>>>> >> >> talking with many blind engineers, I find that many of them are
>>>> >> >> thriving computer programmers.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I am now trying to decide whether to go to Lions World in Little
>>>> >> >> Rock to take their 10 month computer programming course. My
>>>> >> >> counselor at my states agency for the blind wants me to go to
>>>> >> >> Lions World but to take one of their IRS courses, which would in
>>>> >> >> essence be a guaranteed job with the Feds.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I am the type of person who could do any job, at least that is
>>>> >> >> what my aptitude tests tell me.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> What is life like for blind computer programmers? Do most work
>>>> >> >> for employers or as freelancers/contractors? Are there any
>>>> >> >> languages in particular I should focus on? Are there any other
>>>> >> >> ways of learning computer programming as a blind person than
>>>> >> >> going out of
>>>> state?
>>>> >> >> Learning on my own is just not working for me.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Any advice you can give would be appreciated.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Regards
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Daniel Garcia
>>>> >> >> Northville, MI
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >> >> et
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>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
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