[nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Sun Oct 14 17:53:06 UTC 2012
Where is the "CC" designation in your website address located, and could we know more about you? I think we've seen your name, but the
"anonymous" in your address concerns me a little.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 12:08:01 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>http://information4all.fav.cc/
>forgot to add this
>On 10/14/12, Anonymous <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well thanks Lee and I also wanted to ask something, due to my problems
>> with math I do not know if i was never thought it in a way, I could
>> understand or if I just gave up on some of the math in high school I
>> live in the state of MI and will be moving out in the month of
>> December and I have low amounts of income until, I am able to get a
>> job and go to college of some short, I wanted to know if you know of
>> any cheep relible ISP's with good down and up speeds. The problem is
>> that I am use to 30 down and 5 up high speed. I wanted to know to do
>> tasks such as skype, teamtalk, email, my website, and connecting a
>> braille plus, what service you would you advise and what speed. I also
>> want to get a phone that HAS no limit on texts, calling and don't
>> really care about web data as many people still to this day, do not
>> know what putting a password or a good password that I am able to
>> guess. My family is just good at using their home phone number as a
>> wireless password. I also want to go into IT, but I am not quite sure
>> what and from what I know it is not going to be programming. Can you
>> please provide me a link to all the diffrent, high demand options?
>> Also, what would you advise for (a blind enough person to consiter
>> maybe having eyesight sometime down the road) to go into for IT?
>>
>> Doug and all others intrusted, I am making a website for information
>> for the blind. If we would have understood some things, it would have
>> been a less painful road. Please do not spam as it is a free host and
>> if I use up to much CPU on their systems, they will remove my whole
>> thing. I will post it in here and other groups when I am done.
>>
>> Request for the website: If you would like to share your personal
>> story about how you got a job and what helped and that kind of thing.
>> Or what peace of advice you have for others. It can be anything
>> regarding can be anything as my website allows for creative and
>> diffrent thinking.. I would like at least 6 of these storys.I will put
>> your story in whole with no editing other then grammer things I
>> notice, be mindful of what detail you provide.If you wish not to have
>> your name in the story, please let me know and I will make sure it is
>> not there., I respect that. This is not my primary email, but if you
>> would like to be a part of it please contact: blindhelpfultech+tech
>> with the subject "tell my story". I will understand if there is no
>> takers to start off with as I have no content on the website yet.
>>
>> On 10/14/12, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Mine was software for DOS. There were 2 versions -- Vert Plus which came
>>> with it's own synth that sounded like it had a Swedish accent (I named it
>>> Swen and I used it at work), and Personal Vert, which was less expensive,
>>> and came with an external synth that was annoying to listen to. It was
>>> lovingly called the little pervert...*smile*
>>> I always thought that Vert Plus was nastier than the little pervert as
>>> for
>>> some reason some of the sentences came out sounding like profanity.
>>> --le
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Doug Lee" <dgl at dlee.org>
>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:01 AM
>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
>>>
>>>
>>> Quick reply to one question from Laura: I used both PC Vert and Soft
>>> Vert! Wonder which one you had. PC Vert was an external, monotone
>>> speech box, while Soft Vert was software, as the name implies. I
>>> thought Soft Vert sounded a bit like a bored version of DecTalk. PC
>>> Vert was what the U of Illinois Rehab Center had available, so I used
>>> that quite a lot.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:49:04PM -0500, qubit wrote:
>>> With an attitude like that, you will go far Nadia.
>>> Although I don't have the same eye condition you have (my eyes didn't
>>> die),
>>> I had very low and gradually decreasing vision in one eye over the space
>>> of
>>> 40 years, and so I overused my eye all through school, grad school and
>>> career. After years of intense and sometimes stressful work, I began to
>>> suffer from anxiety over the fact that everything depended on my fragile
>>> eye
>>> as I pushed my vision to the limit.
>>> I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
>>> At one point I got myself a screen reader to help with reading emails,
>>> and
>>> that was really amazing in helping with eye strain. But it was an
>>> awkward
>>> screen reader to use -- anyone else use Vert?
>>> Then came windows, which went from being a novelty to being a requirement
>>> in
>>> the workplace.
>>> I got jaws for windows (not sure why I picked jaws rather than
>>> windoweyes).
>>> But yes, you have to force yourself to make time for keeping up with
>>> access
>>> tech.
>>>
>>> As for programming, I don't think it is that much more difficult for a
>>> blind
>>> person, as most the time you spend thinking rather than reading or
>>> writing.
>>> If you have good math skills, it is not bad at all.
>>> My only difficulty now is that I still miss seeing the screen when I am
>>> coding. Using speech is not as natural for me as visualizing the code
>>> and
>>> structure is easier when I can see the code. That is where a braille
>>> display is helpful, but I am not a fast braille reader.
>>> Well, good luck and happy hacking all.
>>> --le
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Anonymous" <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 1:41 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>
>>>
>>> I have learned the lesson over time that personal story written by
>>> someone on the list is so true. I had many people point out to me and
>>> this is sad in a way, but I guess has been the problem. When people
>>> tell you just to use your vision to get by, it is fine until you don't
>>> have the option of giving up or trying your best, for me that has
>>> never been good enough. I am moving out soon and in ways from what my
>>> friend stated you are using more ideas that they give you for complete
>>> blindness. I looked into what and how I was going about things before
>>> I learned the light went on in my head that maybe just seeing is not
>>> good enough anymore. I have a really long personal story to go along
>>> with this. I am sorry in advance for the long email.
>>>
>>> Starting my 8th grade year, I noticed that I could not read the board
>>> in school, even if I was about 2 feet or less away from it. I know
>>> braille enough to pick up on what I have lost so far, thankfully that
>>> is the case. I learned it my 4th grade year in about one year and it
>>> was at one point faster then my print reading. That was until I hit my
>>> 6th grade year and "I thought I just did not have the time." In all
>>> truth looking back on it, I did not think I was going to need it. As
>>> one would think well my vision is fine now and what is the need for
>>> it?
>>>
>>> When I was in fourth grade due to my eye condition, I lost all the
>>> remaining eyesight in my left eye and according to my family I did not
>>> even tell them. My eye condition is very rare and if you get it before
>>> your ten from what I read you have a 50/50 chance of having no
>>> eyesight. Growing up in school, I was always told use your eyes and I
>>> would always recant I am using them to the best of my ability.
>>>
>>> I started working with computers when I was about 9 around my 8th
>>> grade year, my family and I could not put two and two together about
>>> why I would go through one computer system, every 3 months. In some
>>> shape or forum it would be unusable. I kept claiming, I know what I am
>>> doing and they would always say then why do we have to get another
>>> system repaired again. They also stated and you want to go into IT? I
>>> said of course technology has been a huge tool in my life and I enjoy
>>> it a lot. They would always say good luck getting a job with braking
>>> tech all the time.
>>>
>>> . My freshman year and maybe my whole life. When no one was reading
>>> things to me. I had to take a test without anyone reading it and I
>>> mainly played fill in the gap and hope what I am replying is right. At
>>> least well my aid was away, school became a nightmare.
>>>
>>> My soft more year in high school, my left eye kept watering and they
>>> kept saying it is allergens and I kept saying then why does it feel
>>> like you just sliced my eye with a knife in many spots and why does it
>>> keep watering. It got worse and worse. Well after four months of
>>> debate and many eye doctor visits, I found out my eye was dying in my
>>> head and I had two options. Mind you, I was only 16 at that time and
>>> it felt like a huge choice and I just didn't want to regret the option
>>> I made. The two options were remove the eye, have another surgery and
>>> wait 6 months and maybe it would not even work. I said to my mom on
>>> the way to the eye doctor before I knew my two options. "why the heck
>>> do I even have this eye, I can't see out of it and it constantly
>>> causes pain and problems" "What good is it doing for me being there
>>> anyway?" I ended up getting rid of it and just being done with half
>>> the eye problems.
>>>
>>> Shortly after this problem, this happen in reply to my actions and
>>> statements.
>>>
>>> 10th grade year I was just about ready to pull my hair out as it
>>> seemed, I kept telling people I can't read or see that or it is to
>>> far away or just email me the darn thing. I kept getting the reply
>>> "you could see that last year". I kept saying well it is not last year
>>> now is it, it is a new year with new things and maybe new things I
>>> can't read. After that remark I was told by my mom once I said I feel
>>> like I am missing a lot more then I use to. She said, I agree and some
>>> of the evidence is your emails that don't turn out with right spelling
>>> and missing words in the middle of what statement you are typing. She
>>> said to me just wait, in a day we have a low vision evaluation. I said
>>> ok and I was also not thinking or knowing what she meant by that, but
>>> I just went with it.
>>>
>>> The light went on for all of us once he said your "legally blind" and
>>> I said what does that mean to me other then just another term. He said
>>> well it means a lot in services and might have been the reason why you
>>> broke things and could not read much. After that happened I went down
>>> to the center in Kalmazoo for a combined 6 and a half months with the
>>> summers, I spent there.
>>>
>>> The first summer may I mind you I spent the first 4 weeks, killing
>>> myself over the darn keybourd test, why I did not understand. It was
>>> the numbers and the shift options, I kept missing or mixing up. After
>>> getting that down.
>>>
>>> The second summer I walked into my class again. I walked into my
>>> technology class and he said after looking at how I use the computer
>>> on a normal day with nothing extra to help. Your eye looks like it is
>>> going to fall out of your head with the amount of strain and I said so
>>> it was not just me skipping around and missing things. He said nope,
>>> just someone who has never been told about AT? I looked at him and he
>>> explained I had two options at that point, JAWS or ZoomText. After a
>>> week I noticed that I just could not stand zoomtext, I told him well
>>> first off if I need to I can use windows magnifier, but if I can't see
>>> past that amount of zoom, I should be using JAWS anyway. He later
>>> noted in my report the following:
>>>
>>> 1. The school never took the time to explain other options and I said
>>> at one point, I feel like I am starting over with technology and using
>>> AT. He noted that was very true and he understands that everyone feels
>>> that way at first.
>>> 2. I had a very visual understanding of windows, but give me jaws and
>>> ask what a heading is, I would just ask him to explain.
>>> 3. I wanted jaws to prepare for the worst and I just wanted my
>>> computer to look as normal as possible along with using something that
>>> I will not have to relearn. If something happened.
>>>
>>> I went home, started a great debate with my school after a year and a
>>> half of fighting, I have access to jaws and a laptop.
>>>
>>> A few things I would have never learned if I would have not wanted to
>>> know how things work:
>>> HTML and W3C guidelines Alone with windows shortcuts that I never
>>> heard of before. Someone called me and said my mouse broke, can I shut
>>> down the system, until I get a new mouse and I said sure you can and
>>> walked them through it.
>>>
>>> My teacher at school, I broke my computer. The whole desktop was
>>> zoomed in and I said try hitting CRL and moving the mouse wheel and it
>>> worked. She called IT they were sitting there, watching me walk
>>> through it and they said I thought it was the video card, I never
>>> thought of looking there. They left and said to her just ask nadia
>>> before we get a phone call next time.
>>>
>>> My point being I have learned after the third summer there "i am
>>> faster when I am blindfolded vs looking at things. That was also noted
>>> and it hit me, the problem is I had my eyesight doing everything it
>>> couldn't.
>>>
>>> I am now 19 and am starting to relize that braille is a priority just
>>> as much as learning jaws was. I have only used jaws for 1 year and 6
>>> months combined with a full copy and not just a 40 minute demo, but
>>> for some reason I still get the phone calls asking things from people
>>> who have been blind there whole life.
>>>
>>> It has come to the point where I call places no longer saying I am
>>> visually impaired, I say blind. It works better as they tend to be
>>> more detailed and then I can ask my visual questions and most of them
>>> will just say, you use to have more eyesight and still am a little bit
>>> of a visual person and I say yes and end of phone call. When I started
>>> saying that it was my way of accepting the fact that yes my vision is
>>> not reliable for most things, I was trying to have it do what it could
>>> not..
>>>
>>> Some side notes: I walked into MCB the first summer and they said what
>>> size font would you like your documents in and I replied 12. They said
>>> well something here does not match. I said what do you mean? People
>>> are telling you that that is as big as they can get things? I said
>>> nope, I am just use to it. They said well do me a favor stop being use
>>> to killing your eyes from here on out. I said ok and I at the age of
>>> 16 had no idea what they were trying to tell me. I now after meeting
>>> someone and talking with them about it, he said to me they are trying
>>> to kindly say, your not trying to kill your eye by doing what you were
>>> use to here. I said something to the effect to them, well most of the
>>> time I am told it can't be more then 3 pages you print. They said
>>> well, here we do not give a care about the paper we go through as long
>>> as we are not killing your eyes. I then from there am use to size 26
>>> and when I walked back into school and said it is not big enough they
>>> said "14 use to be ok, and I said well use to I was killing my eye
>>> going by something I did not no any better." I said to my friend
>>> awhile back, when I started using jaws for a year, I feel like maybe
>>> my eyesight is not as bad. he said trust me it is, but you have
>>> learned what strain is and what amounts you were doing when, you did
>>> not have anything bigger when you requested it. I went back to the
>>> center and the notes were the following:
>>> 1. I think she has stopped using her vision as much and she is more
>>> productive that way.
>>> 2. She seems to be ok with the facts now
>>>
>>> Point just due to the fact of you being use to something does not mean
>>> it was not killing your eyes to start off with. A good friend of mine
>>> told me the following:
>>>
>>> Size 14 ? He said "That is torcher" I said why? He said think about it
>>> anything you are pushed to do that creates the amount of strain your
>>> eye was under for 14 years and created pain is in my book the word
>>> "torcher".
>>>
>>> The top things a blind person has in their toolkit when getting a job
>>> and keeping it is the following:
>>>
>>> -Willingness to take work home with them and learn
>>> -Happy to learn new things
>>> -Advocate for themselves
>>> -
>>> Most of all motivation, it is different for each person, but part of
>>> my motivation that people say they cannot seem to understand is.
>>> -I want to be productive, but when I have time off, I don?t use it for
>>> time off.
>>> Example my summer job review, your always doing something on your time
>>> off, I don?t understand. Do nothing for once. It is your day off why
>>> are you still around doing things? ?Even when there is ?nothing to
>>> do?, you find something to do.? I was always told even if there is no
>>> ?task to be done, there is always something else to be done? Most of
>>> the time that is learning or making your job more effective.
>>> -I want to learn new things; in fact, that is what I do in my spare time
>>> -Kill myths and untrue things about blindness
>>> -Help others
>>> -Do the job to my best and find ways to do it better
>>> -Insults are a challenge for me to do even better at things along with
>>> degrading terms
>>> Example: you spend too much time on something =I find another way to
>>> do it and do it as well.
>>> Example: Your so picky it drives me crazy = be more picky and proficient
>>> One thing that motivates me more than that though is learning new
>>> things, I like to learn new things and say I learned myself. That for
>>> some reason never is old.
>>> Something that drives people nuts that helps me out a lot though is
>>> being positive. Someone said to me why are you so happy all the
>>> time??? I said, I may not be but why must I drag you down as well?
>>>
>>> Work ethic and willingness to learn gets you far and as one person
>>> said "one thing blind people have going for them, is we are use to
>>> challeges and having to overcome them. I agree with that as well.
>>>
>>> With regards,
>>> Nadia
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/13/12, david hertweck <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> Yes as a computer scientist / engineer doing design / architecture work
>>>> gives a person more flexibility. Also management.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Louis Maher
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:50 PM
>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>
>>>> Another answer is to study as much math and other sciences as possible
>>>> so
>>>> that you can become a scientist and can design the algorithms and not
>>>> just
>>>> follow the lead of others.
>>>>
>>>> You must love math and physics, or some other science, to make this
>>>> work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Louis Maher
>>>> 713-444-7838
>>>> ljmaher at swbell.net
>>>> http://www.nfbtx.org/localchapters/houston
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> majolls at cox.net
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:10 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>
>>>> I did paint a rather dark picture, but I was just stating facts. I
>>>> wanted
>>>> to make sure that budding programmers knew what they were getting into.
>>>> That might make someone think twice whether programming (and the
>>>> challenges
>>>> that go along with it for a blind person) is really their thing. Do
>>>> they
>>>> want to put up with the daily challenges? Doing extra work that
>>>> normally
>>>> sighted people don't have to do? Perhaps not going as fast and being
>>>> penalized for your vision which imposes that limitation ... being judged
>>>> for
>>>> something you have no control over? On this last point, you probably
>>>> will
>>>> experience this in any job, not just programming. That's why I said you
>>>> need to have your solutions and skills up to snuff before you get into
>>>> the
>>>> job. That way you know what accomodations to ask for and you know they
>>>> work. And that's why you need to think about the duties of the job
>>>> BEFORE
>>>> you get there .. so your solutions address as many issues as possible,
>>>> and
>>>> you don't have very many issues and surprises on the job. It will save
>>>> you
>>>> a lot of headaches. When I started working back in the late 70's, I
>>>> hadn't
>>>> put 2 and 2 together. I was a naive 22-year old kid who thought the
>>>> world
>>>> was my oyster and had no concept of being measured on a job. We were
>>>> all
>>>> told we could do anything we wanted to do, but nobody told me that I
>>>> needed
>>>> to be aware that the disability would throw me curves and make it more
>>>> difficult to achieve what everyone else took for granted. I guess I was
>>>> dumb.
>>>> I had no idea how much slower I was or what impact poor vision would
>>>> have
>>>> on
>>>> my career. I hadn't learned Braille and screen readers hadn't been
>>>> invented
>>>> yet. So all I had was my vision and reading print. I found out real
>>>> fast
>>>> that others could do things in less time and It was a rude awakening
>>>> when
>>>> I
>>>> realized that I was being punished for something that was beyond my
>>>> control.
>>>> I'm not sure I would have listened to someone at that age if they told
>>>> me
>>>> to
>>>> be aware of what problems the disability might bring, but I wish someone
>>>> had
>>>> told me of what to expect. It's your career that's at stake. I might
>>>> have
>>>> tried to prepare more, although at that time a lot of the technology
>>>> wasn't
>>>> even around. I'd just hate for someone else to experience any of this
>>>> when
>>>> maybe a few words of warning might help them.
>>>>
>>>> You know, I've heard blind people say ... "I don't want to be treated
>>>> any
>>>> differently than a normally sighted person", but do they really know
>>>> what
>>>> they're asking for? In the end, that's exactly how the employer will
>>>> treat
>>>> them. And they'll measure them against the standard that other normally
>>>> sighted have to work toward. That's why they HAVE to be prepared and
>>>> know
>>>> their solutions ahead of time. If they'll get what they ask for and it
>>>> might not be what they expect and/or hope for.
>>>>
>>>> And here's something that may be interesting to some of you. Personal
>>>> story.
>>>>
>>>> I had been programming for a number of years and I didn't have any
>>>> answers
>>>> to the issues I've stated. I was using my vision all the time to
>>>> program
>>>> and simply didn't see a solution. I was taking a programming design
>>>> course
>>>> and the book we were reading talked about making software
>>>> efficient/faster.
>>>> The book eventually said ... "if you don't change the fundamental
>>>> architecture of the software, you'll only be able to go as fast as the
>>>> limitation the architecture imposes upon you". When I read that, the
>>>> lightbulb went on. I realized that as long as I used my vision to do
>>>> the
>>>> job, I was limited to what my vision could do. If I was going to be
>>>> more
>>>> efficient ... if I was going to have any chance of going faster ... or
>>>> doing
>>>> this more efficiently ... I would have to STOP USING MY VISION to the
>>>> extent
>>>> possible. In other words, find an alternate method. That's something I
>>>> had
>>>> NEVER considered because being raised with vision .. it's drilled into
>>>> your
>>>> head that you read print, that you just go get glasses, or you just do
>>>> the
>>>> best you can and basically give up because that's all you can do.
>>>>
>>>> The big takeaway was to eliminate the vision. I'm a firm believer that
>>>> this
>>>> is what you have to do. Find a different solution that removes the
>>>> problem.
>>>> You know the old adage ... if you keep doing something the same way, why
>>>> should you expect a different answer? I think you have to get rid of
>>>> the
>>>> method that doesn't work to expect any sort of improvement.
>>>>
>>>> Solutions to that issue ... learn Braille .. use a Braille display ..
>>>> learn
>>>> Jaws (or some screen reader). Know how fast you read with your vision
>>>> and
>>>> strive to get to where you can read faster with the alternate tools
>>>> since
>>>> you know that the vision is your Achiles hheel.
>>>>
>>>> Since then I have measured myself. I know that I only read print at
>>>> 130wpm.
>>>> No wonder people (when reading a page of text) get done in half the
>>>> time!!
>>>> I have since found out that normal people read at around 250wpm. And
>>>> that's
>>>> one reason that I've learned Braille. Well, I'm only reading 65 wpm in
>>>> Braille, but I know with print, I don't have any chance of exceeding the
>>>> 130
>>>> barrier. Fifty + years of experience there. Maybe with Braille I'll
>>>> eventually get to 200.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, this was a rather lengthy email. But maybe the idea stated by
>>>> Clint
>>>> Eastwood in his Dirty Harry movies .. "A man has to know his
>>>> limitations"
>>>> ... has been brought out here. Know them. Know what problems they'll
>>>> impose upon you. Then try to find alternate solutions that will help
>>>> you
>>>> overcome them. It's the only way I can see to help you compete in this
>>>> world. If you don't do that, you simply get run over.
>>>>
>>>> ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>>> I don't know if you meant it the way it sounds but I don't think you
>>>>> have to be a hotshot to program in java or python.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was once in a job interview and they asked me which programming
>>>>> languages I knew. I said I know all of them. Give me a week with any
>>>>> programming language and I'll be an expert in it. Maybe not the
>>>>> ultimate expert but an expert none the less. I got the job and they
>>>>> said it was that answer more than any other that got me the job.
>>>>>
>>>>> IMO, it's important to look upon the challenge of learning something
>>>>> new as an opportunity. Think of how much more valuable you'll be to
>>>>> your company once you've learned that new programming language or
>>>>> operating system. Think of how proud you'll be of yourself for having
>>>>> succeeded at something that even sighted people struggle with. IMO,
>>>>> it's no different from blindness itself. It kinda sucks but the only
>>>>> thing
>>>>>
>>>>> to do is to attack the challenge.
>>>>> In fact, I'd say that's one way we blind people have the advantage. We
>>>>> know how to overcome challenges.
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: I'm willing to admit that what I say above might not be literally
>>>>> true.
>>>>> For example, it may have taken me a little more than a week to become
>>>>> an expert in java programming. That might even have taken 2 weeks. :-).
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>>>> Freeman
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:15 PM
>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>
>>>>> I concur completely with Steve's observations below. These days, in a
>>>>> business or even government environment, less and less traditional
>>>>> programming is being done and more and more what programming there is
>>>>> is contracted out. Moreover, as Steve says, increasingly, businesses
>>>>> and government are buying off-the-shelf software packages (some of
>>>>> which are screen-reader-accessible and some of which are not). A few
>>>>> hot-shot blind programmers are going into environments such as C# and
>>>>> java and more are working in interpretive languages such as Pithon.
>>>>> But, as Steve says, a number of us are going into other arenas such as
>>>>> network administration.
>>>>> Over the past few years, my government agency has gone from a HP
>>>>> OpenVMS environment to a windows environment (alas, I wish my agency
>>>>> had chosen
>>>>> UNIX) and so I'm having to come up to speed rather quickly to become
>>>>> an administrator of Windows Server ? 2008 R2 systems. When I began my
>>>>> employment 33 years ago, I was actually doing systems programming in
>>>>> assembly language and if we wanted data brought into our computer
>>>>> systems, we wrote the routines directly to do this including the
>>>>> drivers for the hardware that handled the data. No more. As Steve
>>>>> says, we have a lot of SQL and other packages running on servers
>>>>> running essentially what is Windows 7 on steroids -- Windows Server?
>>>>> 2008
>>>>> R2.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure I'd advise programming as a good entry-level job path
>>>>> today either. But those who find it fascinating *can* find jobs. But
>>>>> the environment is much more competitive and fast-paced than it once
>>>>> was and many tasks these days are more one-off and less are continuing
>>>>> maintenance of existing tasks, at least in my shop.
>>>>>
>>>>> And all this is complicated by the almost paranoid interest in
>>>>> security these days. It often just about takes an act of Congress to
>>>>> get a screen-reader on one's work station now, for example. This may
>>>>> just be an artifact of the electric power system (where I work) but I
>>>>> suspect it goes further than this. I remember some time this year when
>>>>> one fellow was trying to figure out how to hook up his laptop with all
>>>>> his specialized blind-friendly programming tools on secure corporate
>>>>> networks where such connectivity is basically forbidden. I have
>>>>> somewhat the same problem in that I can't hook up my BrailleSensePLUS
>>>>> to my workstation without violating policies.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the environment isn't as straightforward as it once was.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I, too, take extra time and seldom put in for comp time even
>>>>> though I'm allowed to. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>> Jacobson
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:12 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>
>>>>> Generally I would agree with both of you, too, but what I would say
>>>>> for my two cents is that I don't know that I would start out now as a
>>>>> programmer if I was looking to work for a company. Certainly there
>>>>> are still programming jobs, but there are not the jobs there used to
>>>>> be. It is much, much more common now for companies to buy software
>>>>> that they can use to perform many of the functions they used to
>>>>> accomplish with in-house systems that were designed and written by
>>>>> their programmers and analysts. When companies need to have
>>>>> programming done, it is far more common now to contract it out or even
>>>>> outsource it to off-shore locations.
>>>>> However, there is a lot of need yet for people who are skilled in
>>>>> database design and knowing how to work with databases which includes
>>>>> a thorough knowledge of SQL. SQL isn't programming but is rewarding
>>>>> and challenging in its own way. There is quite a bit being done with
>>>>> networking, too, and there are some blind people who are involved with
>>>>> network administration.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, if one is thinking of developing software and wants to
>>>>> write it some themselves, a programming language is very important.
>>>>> Also, if one has his or her eyes on a specific area where programming
>>>>> is common, learning a programming language is still a good idea. I
>>>>> also think there is value to be gained by learning a programming
>>>>> language and writing something just to get a sense of what is
>>>>> necessary. I wonder, though, what the success rate is for blind
>>>>> persons or anyone for that matter, going to school to learn a
>>>>> programming language and then getting a good job. I am in a position
>>>>> where I work that occasionally has me looking at a COBOL program to
>>>>> see what is wrong with it. We still run a good bit of COBOL here, but
>>>>> the maintenance of COBOL is contracted out. My value to my company,
>>>>> probably more than programming, is my in depth knowledge of how the
>>>>> business processes relate to our computer systems. That has allowed
>>>>> me to take that expertise and bring it with me as I changed to a
>>>>> different computer platform, working primarily with databases. Like
>>>>> John, I anticipated where the need would be and felt I could do all
>>>>> right in the SQL environment and found reasons to learn quite a bit
>>>>> about that, some on my own time, so when there was a push in that
>>>>> direction, I had at least some of the tools I needed. For someone
>>>>> just starting out in this field, it is very important to look at the
>>>>> entire field, get some idea of what is interesting and also what fits
>>>>> ones strengths. One also needs to look at what one can do for a long
>>>>> enough time to get some understanding of how a given employer does
>>>>> business even if it isn't ideal, knowing one might be able to move into
>>>>> something they like better having gained that experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fifteen years ago, I would never have believed what a mixed bag
>>>>> accessibility still is. Unfortunately, there are going to be
>>>>> companies who are using tools that are inaccessible enough to make
>>>>> working for that company a loosing bet. I still maintain a hope that
>>>>> things will continue to improve, but it can still be a factor.
>>>>> Sometimes it is clearly the developers of software who are to blame,
>>>>> but some of the problem is that screen reader developers just don't
>>>>> have time to implement newer technologies that could be accessible
>>>>> because they are so busy chasing the development of the latest
>>>>> operating systems. I don't know the answer to that particular
>>>>> problem. Anyway, there are probably no exact answers, but hopefully
>>>>> our
>>>>> responses provide some useful food for thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:21:39 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >I pretty much agree with everything you say below although I might
>>>>> >not paint quite such a dark picture. But, yeah, I feel I've
>>>>> been successful in my career by working harder than everybody else,
>>>>> putting in extra time to make up for being slower than the sighted
>>>>> guys, and doing a lot of research on my own time.
>>>>>
>>>>> >I also agree with the point about keeping your skills up. There is
>>>>> >this phenomenon I call "backwatering". New technologies tend
>>>>> to be inaccessible so a blind technologist doesn't get the assignment
>>>>> of working with them. Slowly, he becomes less and less crucial to his
>>>>> company because he's working with old technology. Then when layoffs
>>>>> come around, he's the one to go. And in some ways, that's only fair.
>>>>> After all, he is the least important member of the team.
>>>>>
>>>>> >IMO, its important to be very aggressive in pursuing new technologies.
>>>>> >I taught myself on my own time almost all the skills I use
>>>>> in my current job. I am sure there are jobs where that isn't necessary
>>>>> but they are few and far between. Also, to some degree it depends on
>>>>> what you want out of your career. I work for the University of
>>>>> Wisconsin and they don't layoff people very often. But a few years
>>>>> ago, I went to my boss and said I thought my skills were being wasted
>>>>> and that I could do a lot more, he said, "What's your problem? You're
>>>>> still getting paid, aren't you?" But I wasn't satisfied just pulling
>>>>> down a paycheck. Plus, I figured that eventually they'd get around to
>>>>> getting rid of me. So I switched jobs and got into a different
>>>>> department.
>>>>>
>>>>> >----Original Message-----
>>>>> >From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> >majolls at cox.net
>>>>> >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:31 AM
>>>>> >To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> >Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>>>> >Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>
>>>>> >Working in the computer field is a challenging experience, especially
>>>>> >for a
>>>>> blind person (well partially sighted in my case).
>>>>> Here are some things to consider:
>>>>>
>>>>> >Know your craft thoroughly. Be as prepared with your programming
>>>>> >languages as you possibly can be. Corporations are looking for
>>>>> people that can solve a problem quickly and who know where to go look
>>>>> when
>>>>> they don??"t know the answers. Therefore, you need to
>>>>> be as knowledgeable as you possibly can be in whatever programming
>>>>> languages you decide to work in.
>>>>>
>>>>> > Know your weaknesses and have solutions in place before you go get
>>>>> > the job. It??"s a competitive environment out there and the
>>>>> people that can get the job done right in the shortest amount of time
>>>>> at the least cost are the ones that seem to rise to the top at least in
>>>>> my
>>>>>
>>>>> company.
>>>>> You need to know any limitations your disability places on you and you
>>>>> need to have a solution BEFORE you go to the job so it doesn??"t hurt
>>>>> you in your career and you can keep up with the normally sighted
>>>>> people. For example, my reading speed is about 130wpm. A normal
>>>>> person
>>>>> reads at about 250wpm.
>>>>> You can see it will take me twice as long reading as someone else. In
>>>>> my daily job, I??"m constantly reading code on the computer monitor.
>>>>> So you can see how a normal person without any vision issues will
>>>>> finish things before me. Doing your best in this case is not good
>>>>> enough because you??"ll always be coming in last. And that equates to
>>>>> less money at your performance review. Trust me, I have 30+ years of
>>>>> experience to back me up on this. If you think Braille, for example,
>>>>> will help overcome slow reading, or using programs such as Jaws, learn
>>>>> it BEFORE you get to the job so there??"s no chance of supervisors
>>>>> forming
>>>>>
>>>>> opinions of how you work.
>>>>>
>>>>> >Know that the job will eventually change, and sooner than later. In
>>>>> >my job, new technologies are always coming up. The company
>>>>> is looking for faster and better ways of doing things. And that means
>>>>> they??"re trying new programming languages, new things to make us
>>>>> meaner and leaner programmers. And that means that you have to learn
>>>>> quickly, and probably more often than you would like. You may be
>>>>> required (not by your employer but just by the fact that you have to
>>>>> keep up) to spend extra hours in the evening learning if you don??"t
>>>>> have enough time during the day. The years of learning a few things
>>>>> for your job and doing that for 5-10 years are gone. Figure on having
>>>>> to relearn your job every couple of years depending on what new thing
>>>>> is
>>>>> coming out.
>>>>> You have to ask yourself if you feel like keeping up like that all
>>>>> the time, or if your disability will put limitations on you there.
>>>>> You are definitely under pressure in these situations.
>>>>>
>>>>> >Be prepared to work overtime. If you??"re in a professional job such
>>>>> >as I am and you??"re not as fast as others, it??"s going to
>>>>> take you more hours to do the same work in a time-frame that an
>>>>> employer considers normal. I??"ve come to the conclusion I can
>>>>> probably never please my employer. Or, if you have to do the training
>>>>> thing, you may not get it all done in the course of 8 hours. In my
>>>>> job, an 8 hour day is the thing of the past. I work more like a 10
>>>>> hour day just to stay even .. to make up for my poor eyesight. Even
>>>>> with technology such as screen magnification and speech, and Braille,
>>>>> I still work a 10 hour day. With the demands of the job, it??"s just
>>>>> the
>>>>> standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> >So consider all these things. Perhaps you can assess your situation
>>>>> >and justify going into computer programming. It is a good
>>>>> career, but to keep up and compete is a challenge. It??"s even moreso
>>>>> with a vision disability in my opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> >I don't want to throw cold water on things, but I've had a lot of
>>>>> >frustration in my career. It's no fun when you come in second
>>>>> most of the time and people seem to move ahead of you and nothing
>>>>> seems to work.
>>>>>
>>>>> >---- Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>> >> When I was looking for work with my programming certificate, I got
>>>>> >> an offer from the IRS, but the salary was very low, and any
>>>>> >> programming would have to be approved by head office in DC. I
>>>>> >> declined the offer, and soon got a much better one. Even though I
>>>>> >> started at a low, trainee salary, it was still significantly better
>>>>> >> than the IRS was offering. Though perhaps IRS salaries are the same
>>>>> >> across the country, and only low when compared to average New York
>>>>> >> salaries.
>>>>> >> Tracy
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > I googled tfor info on the program. A link is below. A one
>>>>> >> > paragraph summary is as follows...
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> Program Description: The Programming curriculum prepares clients
>>>>> >> >> to work
>>>>> >> > in a wide range of programming
>>>>> >> >> environments including .NET and JAVA, and other application
>>>>> >> >> projects as
>>>>> >> > well. Certification exams for JAVA and
>>>>> >> >> Microsoft Certified Professional Developer (MCPD) are offered
>>>>> >> >> through the
>>>>> >> > program. Some prior programming
>>>>> >> >> experience is helpful, but not necessary to be successful in
>>>>> >> >> this course.
>>>>> >> > This program often offers the opportunity to get
>>>>> >> >> a commitment for employment with the Internal Revenue Service.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > http://lwsb.org/index.php/general-overview/vocational-catalog/#co
>>>>> >> > nt
>>>>> >> > e
>>>>> >> > nt
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Wasn't it this list where we just had a huge debate about java?
>>>>> >> > I'm thinking java programming might be making a huge comeback in
>>>>> >> > writing apps for mobile phones. But I'll admit I don't really
>>>>> >> > know what I'm talking about. I would note, however, that the link
>>>>> >> > above indicates that the Lions web site itself is written in php,
>>>>> >> > not .net or
>>>>> java.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>>> >> > Carcione
>>>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 9:38 AM
>>>>> >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Hi Daniel.
>>>>> >> > I got a programming certificate, after I found I was going
>>>>> >> > nowhere with my college degree. I looked around, and found a
>>>>> >> > certificate course that taught the languages employers were
>>>>> >> > looking for at the time. It was local, not out-of-state.
>>>>> >> > If you do go to Lions World, try to make sure that they are
>>>>> >> > teaching languages that will actually be in demand.
>>>>> >> > Learning programming was a very good move for me. I have a
>>>>> >> > secure job that pays well, and is usually interesting. I'm not
>>>>> >> > sure if the IRS job pays well, or is interesting.
>>>>> >> > My brother is also a blind programmer, working for subcontractors
>>>>> >> > to the government. He gets paid OK, but gets laid off every few
>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>> >> > So your results may vary. But I think he'd rather be programming
>>>>> >> > than having a rather dull but secure IRS job.
>>>>> >> > HTH.
>>>>> >> > Tracy
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> Hello Everyone:
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> I am legally blind with a background in engineering and
>>>>> >> >> manufacturing.
>>>>> >> >> After
>>>>> >> >> talking with many blind engineers, I find that many of them are
>>>>> >> >> thriving computer programmers.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> I am now trying to decide whether to go to Lions World in Little
>>>>> >> >> Rock to take their 10 month computer programming course. My
>>>>> >> >> counselor at my states agency for the blind wants me to go to
>>>>> >> >> Lions World but to take one of their IRS courses, which would in
>>>>> >> >> essence be a guaranteed job with the Feds.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> I am the type of person who could do any job, at least that is
>>>>> >> >> what my aptitude tests tell me.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> What is life like for blind computer programmers? Do most work
>>>>> >> >> for employers or as freelancers/contractors? Are there any
>>>>> >> >> languages in particular I should focus on? Are there any other
>>>>> >> >> ways of learning computer programming as a blind person than
>>>>> >> >> going out of
>>>>> state?
>>>>> >> >> Learning on my own is just not working for me.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Any advice you can give would be appreciated.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Regards
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Daniel Garcia
>>>>> >> >> Northville, MI
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> >> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40ac
>>>>> >> >> ce
>>>>> >> >> s
>>>>> >> >> s.n
>>>>> >> >> et
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> > nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >_______________________________________________
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>>> --
>>> Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
>>> SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>>> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>>> "When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you."
>>> --African Proverb
>>>
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