[nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Thu Oct 18 00:50:00 UTC 2012
Nadia,
Got it, thanks for explaining. I remember you but didn't remember the "CC" or you using anonymous before, that's all. Thanks.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 17:13:01 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>Steave I do understand what you are saying about the whole having my
>first and last name not listed. My name is nadia cioffi, I have been
>on the lists since I was 16 not really replying, untill about 17. I
>understand your consern with .cc at this time it is previding me with
>free webhosting. If and when this takes off a little bit I will forke
>over the cash to get something that does not look so odd. At this
>point I need to get content down and then move on to paying for the
>extra. As for the CC it is a subdomain of http:fav.cc, I really would
>like one of you to check out the hosting as it seems to good that they
>are not charging a dime. I also wanted to know who is cheep and
>reliable with webhosts as I have had very bad luck with go daddy and
>their whole you see what you get and I can't work anything they use.
>On 10/15/12, Anonymous <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com> wrote:
>> thank you and as for the whole who I am I am Nadia Cioffi and I will
>> go into more detail on a diffrent post. else it will just end up
>> getting longer.
>>
>> On 10/14/12, Nancy Coffman <nancylc at sprynet.com> wrote:
>>> As far as Internet options, most providers have teers. I am on a medium
>>> teer that does most things but buffers video.
>>>
>>> The Department of Labor has pages with statistics on what types of jobs
>>> are
>>> hiring right now. It also may depend on where you live. Many
>>> information
>>> techology professions don't pay as high a wage as they used to. I would
>>> be
>>> tempted to google something like "high demand jobs" or look at the labor
>>> market trends on usa.gov.
>>>
>>> Nancy Coffman
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Anonymous
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 11:08 AM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
>>>
>>> http://information4all.fav.cc/
>>> forgot to add this
>>>
>>> On 10/14/12, Anonymous <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Well thanks Lee and I also wanted to ask something, due to my problems
>>>> with math I do not know if i was never thought it in a way, I could
>>>> understand or if I just gave up on some of the math in high school I
>>>> live in the state of MI and will be moving out in the month of
>>>> December and I have low amounts of income until, I am able to get a
>>>> job and go to college of some short, I wanted to know if you know of
>>>> any cheep relible ISP's with good down and up speeds. The problem is
>>>> that I am use to 30 down and 5 up high speed. I wanted to know to do
>>>> tasks such as skype, teamtalk, email, my website, and connecting a
>>>> braille plus, what service you would you advise and what speed. I also
>>>> want to get a phone that HAS no limit on texts, calling and don't
>>>> really care about web data as many people still to this day, do not
>>>> know what putting a password or a good password that I am able to
>>>> guess. My family is just good at using their home phone number as a
>>>> wireless password. I also want to go into IT, but I am not quite sure
>>>> what and from what I know it is not going to be programming. Can you
>>>> please provide me a link to all the diffrent, high demand options?
>>>> Also, what would you advise for (a blind enough person to consiter
>>>> maybe having eyesight sometime down the road) to go into for IT?
>>>>
>>>> Doug and all others intrusted, I am making a website for information
>>>> for the blind. If we would have understood some things, it would have
>>>> been a less painful road. Please do not spam as it is a free host and
>>>> if I use up to much CPU on their systems, they will remove my whole
>>>> thing. I will post it in here and other groups when I am done.
>>>>
>>>> Request for the website: If you would like to share your personal
>>>> story about how you got a job and what helped and that kind of thing.
>>>> Or what peace of advice you have for others. It can be anything
>>>> regarding can be anything as my website allows for creative and
>>>> diffrent thinking.. I would like at least 6 of these storys.I will put
>>>> your story in whole with no editing other then grammer things I
>>>> notice, be mindful of what detail you provide.If you wish not to have
>>>> your name in the story, please let me know and I will make sure it is
>>>> not there., I respect that. This is not my primary email, but if you
>>>> would like to be a part of it please contact: blindhelpfultech+tech
>>>> with the subject "tell my story". I will understand if there is no
>>>> takers to start off with as I have no content on the website yet.
>>>>
>>>> On 10/14/12, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Mine was software for DOS. There were 2 versions -- Vert Plus which
>>>>> came
>>>>> with it's own synth that sounded like it had a Swedish accent (I named
>>>>> it
>>>>> Swen and I used it at work), and Personal Vert, which was less
>>>>> expensive,
>>>>> and came with an external synth that was annoying to listen to. It was
>>>>> lovingly called the little pervert...*smile*
>>>>> I always thought that Vert Plus was nastier than the little pervert as
>>>>> for
>>>>> some reason some of the sentences came out sounding like profanity.
>>>>> --le
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Doug Lee" <dgl at dlee.org>
>>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:01 AM
>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Quick reply to one question from Laura: I used both PC Vert and Soft
>>>>> Vert! Wonder which one you had. PC Vert was an external, monotone
>>>>> speech box, while Soft Vert was software, as the name implies. I
>>>>> thought Soft Vert sounded a bit like a bored version of DecTalk. PC
>>>>> Vert was what the U of Illinois Rehab Center had available, so I used
>>>>> that quite a lot.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:49:04PM -0500, qubit wrote:
>>>>> With an attitude like that, you will go far Nadia.
>>>>> Although I don't have the same eye condition you have (my eyes didn't
>>>>> die),
>>>>> I had very low and gradually decreasing vision in one eye over the
>>>>> space
>>>>> of
>>>>> 40 years, and so I overused my eye all through school, grad school and
>>>>> career. After years of intense and sometimes stressful work, I began
>>>>> to
>>>>> suffer from anxiety over the fact that everything depended on my
>>>>> fragile
>>>>> eye
>>>>> as I pushed my vision to the limit.
>>>>> I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
>>>>> At one point I got myself a screen reader to help with reading emails,
>>>>> and
>>>>> that was really amazing in helping with eye strain. But it was an
>>>>> awkward
>>>>> screen reader to use -- anyone else use Vert?
>>>>> Then came windows, which went from being a novelty to being a
>>>>> requirement
>>>>> in
>>>>> the workplace.
>>>>> I got jaws for windows (not sure why I picked jaws rather than
>>>>> windoweyes).
>>>>> But yes, you have to force yourself to make time for keeping up with
>>>>> access
>>>>> tech.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for programming, I don't think it is that much more difficult for a
>>>>> blind
>>>>> person, as most the time you spend thinking rather than reading or
>>>>> writing.
>>>>> If you have good math skills, it is not bad at all.
>>>>> My only difficulty now is that I still miss seeing the screen when I am
>>>>> coding. Using speech is not as natural for me as visualizing the code
>>>>> and
>>>>> structure is easier when I can see the code. That is where a braille
>>>>> display is helpful, but I am not a fast braille reader.
>>>>> Well, good luck and happy hacking all.
>>>>> --le
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Anonymous" <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 1:41 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have learned the lesson over time that personal story written by
>>>>> someone on the list is so true. I had many people point out to me and
>>>>> this is sad in a way, but I guess has been the problem. When people
>>>>> tell you just to use your vision to get by, it is fine until you don't
>>>>> have the option of giving up or trying your best, for me that has
>>>>> never been good enough. I am moving out soon and in ways from what my
>>>>> friend stated you are using more ideas that they give you for complete
>>>>> blindness. I looked into what and how I was going about things before
>>>>> I learned the light went on in my head that maybe just seeing is not
>>>>> good enough anymore. I have a really long personal story to go along
>>>>> with this. I am sorry in advance for the long email.
>>>>>
>>>>> Starting my 8th grade year, I noticed that I could not read the board
>>>>> in school, even if I was about 2 feet or less away from it. I know
>>>>> braille enough to pick up on what I have lost so far, thankfully that
>>>>> is the case. I learned it my 4th grade year in about one year and it
>>>>> was at one point faster then my print reading. That was until I hit my
>>>>> 6th grade year and "I thought I just did not have the time." In all
>>>>> truth looking back on it, I did not think I was going to need it. As
>>>>> one would think well my vision is fine now and what is the need for
>>>>> it?
>>>>>
>>>>> When I was in fourth grade due to my eye condition, I lost all the
>>>>> remaining eyesight in my left eye and according to my family I did not
>>>>> even tell them. My eye condition is very rare and if you get it before
>>>>> your ten from what I read you have a 50/50 chance of having no
>>>>> eyesight. Growing up in school, I was always told use your eyes and I
>>>>> would always recant I am using them to the best of my ability.
>>>>>
>>>>> I started working with computers when I was about 9 around my 8th
>>>>> grade year, my family and I could not put two and two together about
>>>>> why I would go through one computer system, every 3 months. In some
>>>>> shape or forum it would be unusable. I kept claiming, I know what I am
>>>>> doing and they would always say then why do we have to get another
>>>>> system repaired again. They also stated and you want to go into IT? I
>>>>> said of course technology has been a huge tool in my life and I enjoy
>>>>> it a lot. They would always say good luck getting a job with braking
>>>>> tech all the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> . My freshman year and maybe my whole life. When no one was reading
>>>>> things to me. I had to take a test without anyone reading it and I
>>>>> mainly played fill in the gap and hope what I am replying is right. At
>>>>> least well my aid was away, school became a nightmare.
>>>>>
>>>>> My soft more year in high school, my left eye kept watering and they
>>>>> kept saying it is allergens and I kept saying then why does it feel
>>>>> like you just sliced my eye with a knife in many spots and why does it
>>>>> keep watering. It got worse and worse. Well after four months of
>>>>> debate and many eye doctor visits, I found out my eye was dying in my
>>>>> head and I had two options. Mind you, I was only 16 at that time and
>>>>> it felt like a huge choice and I just didn't want to regret the option
>>>>> I made. The two options were remove the eye, have another surgery and
>>>>> wait 6 months and maybe it would not even work. I said to my mom on
>>>>> the way to the eye doctor before I knew my two options. "why the heck
>>>>> do I even have this eye, I can't see out of it and it constantly
>>>>> causes pain and problems" "What good is it doing for me being there
>>>>> anyway?" I ended up getting rid of it and just being done with half
>>>>> the eye problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shortly after this problem, this happen in reply to my actions and
>>>>> statements.
>>>>>
>>>>> 10th grade year I was just about ready to pull my hair out as it
>>>>> seemed, I kept telling people I can't read or see that or it is to
>>>>> far away or just email me the darn thing. I kept getting the reply
>>>>> "you could see that last year". I kept saying well it is not last year
>>>>> now is it, it is a new year with new things and maybe new things I
>>>>> can't read. After that remark I was told by my mom once I said I feel
>>>>> like I am missing a lot more then I use to. She said, I agree and some
>>>>> of the evidence is your emails that don't turn out with right spelling
>>>>> and missing words in the middle of what statement you are typing. She
>>>>> said to me just wait, in a day we have a low vision evaluation. I said
>>>>> ok and I was also not thinking or knowing what she meant by that, but
>>>>> I just went with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The light went on for all of us once he said your "legally blind" and
>>>>> I said what does that mean to me other then just another term. He said
>>>>> well it means a lot in services and might have been the reason why you
>>>>> broke things and could not read much. After that happened I went down
>>>>> to the center in Kalmazoo for a combined 6 and a half months with the
>>>>> summers, I spent there.
>>>>>
>>>>> The first summer may I mind you I spent the first 4 weeks, killing
>>>>> myself over the darn keybourd test, why I did not understand. It was
>>>>> the numbers and the shift options, I kept missing or mixing up. After
>>>>> getting that down.
>>>>>
>>>>> The second summer I walked into my class again. I walked into my
>>>>> technology class and he said after looking at how I use the computer
>>>>> on a normal day with nothing extra to help. Your eye looks like it is
>>>>> going to fall out of your head with the amount of strain and I said so
>>>>> it was not just me skipping around and missing things. He said nope,
>>>>> just someone who has never been told about AT? I looked at him and he
>>>>> explained I had two options at that point, JAWS or ZoomText. After a
>>>>> week I noticed that I just could not stand zoomtext, I told him well
>>>>> first off if I need to I can use windows magnifier, but if I can't see
>>>>> past that amount of zoom, I should be using JAWS anyway. He later
>>>>> noted in my report the following:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. The school never took the time to explain other options and I said
>>>>> at one point, I feel like I am starting over with technology and using
>>>>> AT. He noted that was very true and he understands that everyone feels
>>>>> that way at first.
>>>>> 2. I had a very visual understanding of windows, but give me jaws and
>>>>> ask what a heading is, I would just ask him to explain.
>>>>> 3. I wanted jaws to prepare for the worst and I just wanted my
>>>>> computer to look as normal as possible along with using something that
>>>>> I will not have to relearn. If something happened.
>>>>>
>>>>> I went home, started a great debate with my school after a year and a
>>>>> half of fighting, I have access to jaws and a laptop.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few things I would have never learned if I would have not wanted to
>>>>> know how things work:
>>>>> HTML and W3C guidelines Alone with windows shortcuts that I never
>>>>> heard of before. Someone called me and said my mouse broke, can I shut
>>>>> down the system, until I get a new mouse and I said sure you can and
>>>>> walked them through it.
>>>>>
>>>>> My teacher at school, I broke my computer. The whole desktop was
>>>>> zoomed in and I said try hitting CRL and moving the mouse wheel and it
>>>>> worked. She called IT they were sitting there, watching me walk
>>>>> through it and they said I thought it was the video card, I never
>>>>> thought of looking there. They left and said to her just ask nadia
>>>>> before we get a phone call next time.
>>>>>
>>>>> My point being I have learned after the third summer there "i am
>>>>> faster when I am blindfolded vs looking at things. That was also noted
>>>>> and it hit me, the problem is I had my eyesight doing everything it
>>>>> couldn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am now 19 and am starting to relize that braille is a priority just
>>>>> as much as learning jaws was. I have only used jaws for 1 year and 6
>>>>> months combined with a full copy and not just a 40 minute demo, but
>>>>> for some reason I still get the phone calls asking things from people
>>>>> who have been blind there whole life.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has come to the point where I call places no longer saying I am
>>>>> visually impaired, I say blind. It works better as they tend to be
>>>>> more detailed and then I can ask my visual questions and most of them
>>>>> will just say, you use to have more eyesight and still am a little bit
>>>>> of a visual person and I say yes and end of phone call. When I started
>>>>> saying that it was my way of accepting the fact that yes my vision is
>>>>> not reliable for most things, I was trying to have it do what it could
>>>>> not..
>>>>>
>>>>> Some side notes: I walked into MCB the first summer and they said what
>>>>> size font would you like your documents in and I replied 12. They said
>>>>> well something here does not match. I said what do you mean? People
>>>>> are telling you that that is as big as they can get things? I said
>>>>> nope, I am just use to it. They said well do me a favor stop being use
>>>>> to killing your eyes from here on out. I said ok and I at the age of
>>>>> 16 had no idea what they were trying to tell me. I now after meeting
>>>>> someone and talking with them about it, he said to me they are trying
>>>>> to kindly say, your not trying to kill your eye by doing what you were
>>>>> use to here. I said something to the effect to them, well most of the
>>>>> time I am told it can't be more then 3 pages you print. They said
>>>>> well, here we do not give a care about the paper we go through as long
>>>>> as we are not killing your eyes. I then from there am use to size 26
>>>>> and when I walked back into school and said it is not big enough they
>>>>> said "14 use to be ok, and I said well use to I was killing my eye
>>>>> going by something I did not no any better." I said to my friend
>>>>> awhile back, when I started using jaws for a year, I feel like maybe
>>>>> my eyesight is not as bad. he said trust me it is, but you have
>>>>> learned what strain is and what amounts you were doing when, you did
>>>>> not have anything bigger when you requested it. I went back to the
>>>>> center and the notes were the following:
>>>>> 1. I think she has stopped using her vision as much and she is more
>>>>> productive that way.
>>>>> 2. She seems to be ok with the facts now
>>>>>
>>>>> Point just due to the fact of you being use to something does not mean
>>>>> it was not killing your eyes to start off with. A good friend of mine
>>>>> told me the following:
>>>>>
>>>>> Size 14 ? He said "That is torcher" I said why? He said think about it
>>>>> anything you are pushed to do that creates the amount of strain your
>>>>> eye was under for 14 years and created pain is in my book the word
>>>>> "torcher".
>>>>>
>>>>> The top things a blind person has in their toolkit when getting a job
>>>>> and keeping it is the following:
>>>>>
>>>>> -Willingness to take work home with them and learn
>>>>> -Happy to learn new things
>>>>> -Advocate for themselves
>>>>> -
>>>>> Most of all motivation, it is different for each person, but part of
>>>>> my motivation that people say they cannot seem to understand is.
>>>>> -I want to be productive, but when I have time off, I don?t use it for
>>>>> time off.
>>>>> Example my summer job review, your always doing something on your time
>>>>> off, I don?t understand. Do nothing for once. It is your day off why
>>>>> are you still around doing things? ?Even when there is ?nothing to
>>>>> do?, you find something to do.? I was always told even if there is no
>>>>> ?task to be done, there is always something else to be done? Most of
>>>>> the time that is learning or making your job more effective.
>>>>> -I want to learn new things; in fact, that is what I do in my spare
>>>>> time
>>>>> -Kill myths and untrue things about blindness
>>>>> -Help others
>>>>> -Do the job to my best and find ways to do it better
>>>>> -Insults are a challenge for me to do even better at things along with
>>>>> degrading terms
>>>>> Example: you spend too much time on something =I find another way to
>>>>> do it and do it as well.
>>>>> Example: Your so picky it drives me crazy = be more picky and
>>>>> proficient
>>>>> One thing that motivates me more than that though is learning new
>>>>> things, I like to learn new things and say I learned myself. That for
>>>>> some reason never is old.
>>>>> Something that drives people nuts that helps me out a lot though is
>>>>> being positive. Someone said to me why are you so happy all the
>>>>> time??? I said, I may not be but why must I drag you down as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> Work ethic and willingness to learn gets you far and as one person
>>>>> said "one thing blind people have going for them, is we are use to
>>>>> challeges and having to overcome them. I agree with that as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> With regards,
>>>>> Nadia
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/13/12, david hertweck <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Yes as a computer scientist / engineer doing design / architecture
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> gives a person more flexibility. Also management.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Louis Maher
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:50 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another answer is to study as much math and other sciences as possible
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> that you can become a scientist and can design the algorithms and not
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> follow the lead of others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You must love math and physics, or some other science, to make this
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Louis Maher
>>>>>> 713-444-7838
>>>>>> ljmaher at swbell.net
>>>>>> http://www.nfbtx.org/localchapters/houston
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> majolls at cox.net
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:10 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did paint a rather dark picture, but I was just stating facts. I
>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>> to make sure that budding programmers knew what they were getting
>>>>>> into.
>>>>>> That might make someone think twice whether programming (and the
>>>>>> challenges
>>>>>> that go along with it for a blind person) is really their thing. Do
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> want to put up with the daily challenges? Doing extra work that
>>>>>> normally
>>>>>> sighted people don't have to do? Perhaps not going as fast and being
>>>>>> penalized for your vision which imposes that limitation ... being
>>>>>> judged
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> something you have no control over? On this last point, you probably
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> experience this in any job, not just programming. That's why I said
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> need to have your solutions and skills up to snuff before you get into
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> job. That way you know what accomodations to ask for and you know
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> work. And that's why you need to think about the duties of the job
>>>>>> BEFORE
>>>>>> you get there .. so your solutions address as many issues as possible,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> you don't have very many issues and surprises on the job. It will
>>>>>> save
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> a lot of headaches. When I started working back in the late 70's, I
>>>>>> hadn't
>>>>>> put 2 and 2 together. I was a naive 22-year old kid who thought the
>>>>>> world
>>>>>> was my oyster and had no concept of being measured on a job. We were
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> told we could do anything we wanted to do, but nobody told me that I
>>>>>> needed
>>>>>> to be aware that the disability would throw me curves and make it more
>>>>>> difficult to achieve what everyone else took for granted. I guess I
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> dumb.
>>>>>> I had no idea how much slower I was or what impact poor vision would
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> my career. I hadn't learned Braille and screen readers hadn't been
>>>>>> invented
>>>>>> yet. So all I had was my vision and reading print. I found out real
>>>>>> fast
>>>>>> that others could do things in less time and It was a rude awakening
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> realized that I was being punished for something that was beyond my
>>>>>> control.
>>>>>> I'm not sure I would have listened to someone at that age if they told
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be aware of what problems the disability might bring, but I wish
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> told me of what to expect. It's your career that's at stake. I might
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> tried to prepare more, although at that time a lot of the technology
>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>> even around. I'd just hate for someone else to experience any of this
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> maybe a few words of warning might help them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know, I've heard blind people say ... "I don't want to be treated
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> differently than a normally sighted person", but do they really know
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> they're asking for? In the end, that's exactly how the employer will
>>>>>> treat
>>>>>> them. And they'll measure them against the standard that other
>>>>>> normally
>>>>>> sighted have to work toward. That's why they HAVE to be prepared and
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> their solutions ahead of time. If they'll get what they ask for and
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> might not be what they expect and/or hope for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And here's something that may be interesting to some of you. Personal
>>>>>> story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had been programming for a number of years and I didn't have any
>>>>>> answers
>>>>>> to the issues I've stated. I was using my vision all the time to
>>>>>> program
>>>>>> and simply didn't see a solution. I was taking a programming design
>>>>>> course
>>>>>> and the book we were reading talked about making software
>>>>>> efficient/faster.
>>>>>> The book eventually said ... "if you don't change the fundamental
>>>>>> architecture of the software, you'll only be able to go as fast as the
>>>>>> limitation the architecture imposes upon you". When I read that, the
>>>>>> lightbulb went on. I realized that as long as I used my vision to do
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> job, I was limited to what my vision could do. If I was going to be
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> efficient ... if I was going to have any chance of going faster ... or
>>>>>> doing
>>>>>> this more efficiently ... I would have to STOP USING MY VISION to the
>>>>>> extent
>>>>>> possible. In other words, find an alternate method. That's something
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> NEVER considered because being raised with vision .. it's drilled into
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> head that you read print, that you just go get glasses, or you just do
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> best you can and basically give up because that's all you can do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The big takeaway was to eliminate the vision. I'm a firm believer
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is what you have to do. Find a different solution that removes the
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>> You know the old adage ... if you keep doing something the same way,
>>>>>> why
>>>>>> should you expect a different answer? I think you have to get rid of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> method that doesn't work to expect any sort of improvement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Solutions to that issue ... learn Braille .. use a Braille display ..
>>>>>> learn
>>>>>> Jaws (or some screen reader). Know how fast you read with your vision
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> strive to get to where you can read faster with the alternate tools
>>>>>> since
>>>>>> you know that the vision is your Achiles hheel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since then I have measured myself. I know that I only read print at
>>>>>> 130wpm.
>>>>>> No wonder people (when reading a page of text) get done in half the
>>>>>> time!!
>>>>>> I have since found out that normal people read at around 250wpm. And
>>>>>> that's
>>>>>> one reason that I've learned Braille. Well, I'm only reading 65 wpm
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Braille, but I know with print, I don't have any chance of exceeding
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> 130
>>>>>> barrier. Fifty + years of experience there. Maybe with Braille I'll
>>>>>> eventually get to 200.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, this was a rather lengthy email. But maybe the idea stated by
>>>>>> Clint
>>>>>> Eastwood in his Dirty Harry movies .. "A man has to know his
>>>>>> limitations"
>>>>>> ... has been brought out here. Know them. Know what problems they'll
>>>>>> impose upon you. Then try to find alternate solutions that will help
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> overcome them. It's the only way I can see to help you compete in
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> world. If you don't do that, you simply get run over.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't know if you meant it the way it sounds but I don't think you
>>>>>>> have to be a hotshot to program in java or python.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was once in a job interview and they asked me which programming
>>>>>>> languages I knew. I said I know all of them. Give me a week with any
>>>>>>> programming language and I'll be an expert in it. Maybe not the
>>>>>>> ultimate expert but an expert none the less. I got the job and they
>>>>>>> said it was that answer more than any other that got me the job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMO, it's important to look upon the challenge of learning something
>>>>>>> new as an opportunity. Think of how much more valuable you'll be to
>>>>>>> your company once you've learned that new programming language or
>>>>>>> operating system. Think of how proud you'll be of yourself for
>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>> succeeded at something that even sighted people struggle with. IMO,
>>>>>>> it's no different from blindness itself. It kinda sucks but the only
>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to do is to attack the challenge.
>>>>>>> In fact, I'd say that's one way we blind people have the advantage.
>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>> know how to overcome challenges.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PS: I'm willing to admit that what I say above might not be literally
>>>>>>> true.
>>>>>>> For example, it may have taken me a little more than a week to become
>>>>>>> an expert in java programming. That might even have taken 2 weeks.
>>>>>>> :-).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>>>>>> Freeman
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:15 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I concur completely with Steve's observations below. These days, in a
>>>>>>> business or even government environment, less and less traditional
>>>>>>> programming is being done and more and more what programming there is
>>>>>>> is contracted out. Moreover, as Steve says, increasingly, businesses
>>>>>>> and government are buying off-the-shelf software packages (some of
>>>>>>> which are screen-reader-accessible and some of which are not). A few
>>>>>>> hot-shot blind programmers are going into environments such as C# and
>>>>>>> java and more are working in interpretive languages such as Pithon.
>>>>>>> But, as Steve says, a number of us are going into other arenas such
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> network administration.
>>>>>>> Over the past few years, my government agency has gone from a HP
>>>>>>> OpenVMS environment to a windows environment (alas, I wish my agency
>>>>>>> had chosen
>>>>>>> UNIX) and so I'm having to come up to speed rather quickly to become
>>>>>>> an administrator of Windows Server ? 2008 R2 systems. When I began my
>>>>>>> employment 33 years ago, I was actually doing systems programming in
>>>>>>> assembly language and if we wanted data brought into our computer
>>>>>>> systems, we wrote the routines directly to do this including the
>>>>>>> drivers for the hardware that handled the data. No more. As Steve
>>>>>>> says, we have a lot of SQL and other packages running on servers
>>>>>>> running essentially what is Windows 7 on steroids -- Windows Server?
>>>>>>> 2008
>>>>>>> R2.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure I'd advise programming as a good entry-level job path
>>>>>>> today either. But those who find it fascinating *can* find jobs. But
>>>>>>> the environment is much more competitive and fast-paced than it once
>>>>>>> was and many tasks these days are more one-off and less are
>>>>>>> continuing
>>>>>>> maintenance of existing tasks, at least in my shop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And all this is complicated by the almost paranoid interest in
>>>>>>> security these days. It often just about takes an act of Congress to
>>>>>>> get a screen-reader on one's work station now, for example. This may
>>>>>>> just be an artifact of the electric power system (where I work) but I
>>>>>>> suspect it goes further than this. I remember some time this year
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> one fellow was trying to figure out how to hook up his laptop with
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> his specialized blind-friendly programming tools on secure corporate
>>>>>>> networks where such connectivity is basically forbidden. I have
>>>>>>> somewhat the same problem in that I can't hook up my BrailleSensePLUS
>>>>>>> to my workstation without violating policies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the environment isn't as straightforward as it once was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I, too, take extra time and seldom put in for comp time even
>>>>>>> though I'm allowed to. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>>>> Jacobson
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:12 PM
>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Generally I would agree with both of you, too, but what I would say
>>>>>>> for my two cents is that I don't know that I would start out now as a
>>>>>>> programmer if I was looking to work for a company. Certainly there
>>>>>>> are still programming jobs, but there are not the jobs there used to
>>>>>>> be. It is much, much more common now for companies to buy software
>>>>>>> that they can use to perform many of the functions they used to
>>>>>>> accomplish with in-house systems that were designed and written by
>>>>>>> their programmers and analysts. When companies need to have
>>>>>>> programming done, it is far more common now to contract it out or
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> outsource it to off-shore locations.
>>>>>>> However, there is a lot of need yet for people who are skilled in
>>>>>>> database design and knowing how to work with databases which includes
>>>>>>> a thorough knowledge of SQL. SQL isn't programming but is rewarding
>>>>>>> and challenging in its own way. There is quite a bit being done with
>>>>>>> networking, too, and there are some blind people who are involved
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> network administration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, if one is thinking of developing software and wants to
>>>>>>> write it some themselves, a programming language is very important.
>>>>>>> Also, if one has his or her eyes on a specific area where programming
>>>>>>> is common, learning a programming language is still a good idea. I
>>>>>>> also think there is value to be gained by learning a programming
>>>>>>> language and writing something just to get a sense of what is
>>>>>>> necessary. I wonder, though, what the success rate is for blind
>>>>>>> persons or anyone for that matter, going to school to learn a
>>>>>>> programming language and then getting a good job. I am in a position
>>>>>>> where I work that occasionally has me looking at a COBOL program to
>>>>>>> see what is wrong with it. We still run a good bit of COBOL here,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> the maintenance of COBOL is contracted out. My value to my company,
>>>>>>> probably more than programming, is my in depth knowledge of how the
>>>>>>> business processes relate to our computer systems. That has allowed
>>>>>>> me to take that expertise and bring it with me as I changed to a
>>>>>>> different computer platform, working primarily with databases. Like
>>>>>>> John, I anticipated where the need would be and felt I could do all
>>>>>>> right in the SQL environment and found reasons to learn quite a bit
>>>>>>> about that, some on my own time, so when there was a push in that
>>>>>>> direction, I had at least some of the tools I needed. For someone
>>>>>>> just starting out in this field, it is very important to look at the
>>>>>>> entire field, get some idea of what is interesting and also what fits
>>>>>>> ones strengths. One also needs to look at what one can do for a long
>>>>>>> enough time to get some understanding of how a given employer does
>>>>>>> business even if it isn't ideal, knowing one might be able to move
>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>> something they like better having gained that experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fifteen years ago, I would never have believed what a mixed bag
>>>>>>> accessibility still is. Unfortunately, there are going to be
>>>>>>> companies who are using tools that are inaccessible enough to make
>>>>>>> working for that company a loosing bet. I still maintain a hope that
>>>>>>> things will continue to improve, but it can still be a factor.
>>>>>>> Sometimes it is clearly the developers of software who are to blame,
>>>>>>> but some of the problem is that screen reader developers just don't
>>>>>>> have time to implement newer technologies that could be accessible
>>>>>>> because they are so busy chasing the development of the latest
>>>>>>> operating systems. I don't know the answer to that particular
>>>>>>> problem. Anyway, there are probably no exact answers, but hopefully
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> responses provide some useful food for thought.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:21:39 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >I pretty much agree with everything you say below although I might
>>>>>>> >not paint quite such a dark picture. But, yeah, I feel I've
>>>>>>> been successful in my career by working harder than everybody else,
>>>>>>> putting in extra time to make up for being slower than the sighted
>>>>>>> guys, and doing a lot of research on my own time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >I also agree with the point about keeping your skills up. There is
>>>>>>> >this phenomenon I call "backwatering". New technologies tend
>>>>>>> to be inaccessible so a blind technologist doesn't get the assignment
>>>>>>> of working with them. Slowly, he becomes less and less crucial to his
>>>>>>> company because he's working with old technology. Then when layoffs
>>>>>>> come around, he's the one to go. And in some ways, that's only fair.
>>>>>>> After all, he is the least important member of the team.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >IMO, its important to be very aggressive in pursuing new
>>>>>>> > technologies.
>>>>>>> >I taught myself on my own time almost all the skills I use
>>>>>>> in my current job. I am sure there are jobs where that isn't
>>>>>>> necessary
>>>>>>> but they are few and far between. Also, to some degree it depends on
>>>>>>> what you want out of your career. I work for the University of
>>>>>>> Wisconsin and they don't layoff people very often. But a few years
>>>>>>> ago, I went to my boss and said I thought my skills were being wasted
>>>>>>> and that I could do a lot more, he said, "What's your problem? You're
>>>>>>> still getting paid, aren't you?" But I wasn't satisfied just pulling
>>>>>>> down a paycheck. Plus, I figured that eventually they'd get around to
>>>>>>> getting rid of me. So I switched jobs and got into a different
>>>>>>> department.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> >From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> >majolls at cox.net
>>>>>>> >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:31 AM
>>>>>>> >To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>> >Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>>>>>> >Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >Working in the computer field is a challenging experience,
>>>>>>> > especially
>>>>>>> >for a
>>>>>>> blind person (well partially sighted in my case).
>>>>>>> Here are some things to consider:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >Know your craft thoroughly. Be as prepared with your programming
>>>>>>> >languages as you possibly can be. Corporations are looking for
>>>>>>> people that can solve a problem quickly and who know where to go look
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> they don??"t know the answers. Therefore, you need to
>>>>>>> be as knowledgeable as you possibly can be in whatever programming
>>>>>>> languages you decide to work in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Know your weaknesses and have solutions in place before you go get
>>>>>>> > the job. It??"s a competitive environment out there and the
>>>>>>> people that can get the job done right in the shortest amount of time
>>>>>>> at the least cost are the ones that seem to rise to the top at least
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> company.
>>>>>>> You need to know any limitations your disability places on you and
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> need to have a solution BEFORE you go to the job so it doesn??"t hurt
>>>>>>> you in your career and you can keep up with the normally sighted
>>>>>>> people. For example, my reading speed is about 130wpm. A normal
>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>> reads at about 250wpm.
>>>>>>> You can see it will take me twice as long reading as someone else.
>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>> my daily job, I??"m constantly reading code on the computer monitor.
>>>>>>> So you can see how a normal person without any vision issues will
>>>>>>> finish things before me. Doing your best in this case is not good
>>>>>>> enough because you??"ll always be coming in last. And that equates
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> less money at your performance review. Trust me, I have 30+ years of
>>>>>>> experience to back me up on this. If you think Braille, for example,
>>>>>>> will help overcome slow reading, or using programs such as Jaws,
>>>>>>> learn
>>>>>>> it BEFORE you get to the job so there??"s no chance of supervisors
>>>>>>> forming
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> opinions of how you work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >Know that the job will eventually change, and sooner than later. In
>>>>>>> >my job, new technologies are always coming up. The company
>>>>>>> is looking for faster and better ways of doing things. And that
>>>>>>> means
>>>>>>> they??"re trying new programming languages, new things to make us
>>>>>>> meaner and leaner programmers. And that means that you have to learn
>>>>>>> quickly, and probably more often than you would like. You may be
>>>>>>> required (not by your employer but just by the fact that you have to
>>>>>>> keep up) to spend extra hours in the evening learning if you don??"t
>>>>>>> have enough time during the day. The years of learning a few things
>>>>>>> for your job and doing that for 5-10 years are gone. Figure on
>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>> to relearn your job every couple of years depending on what new thing
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> coming out.
>>>>>>> You have to ask yourself if you feel like keeping up like that all
>>>>>>> the time, or if your disability will put limitations on you there.
>>>>>>> You are definitely under pressure in these situations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >Be prepared to work overtime. If you??"re in a professional job
>>>>>>> > such
>>>>>>> >as I am and you??"re not as fast as others, it??"s going to
>>>>>>> take you more hours to do the same work in a time-frame that an
>>>>>>> employer considers normal. I??"ve come to the conclusion I can
>>>>>>> probably never please my employer. Or, if you have to do the
>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>> thing, you may not get it all done in the course of 8 hours. In my
>>>>>>> job, an 8 hour day is the thing of the past. I work more like a 10
>>>>>>> hour day just to stay even .. to make up for my poor eyesight. Even
>>>>>>> with technology such as screen magnification and speech, and Braille,
>>>>>>> I still work a 10 hour day. With the demands of the job, it??"s just
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> standard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >So consider all these things. Perhaps you can assess your situation
>>>>>>> >and justify going into computer programming. It is a good
>>>>>>> career, but to keep up and compete is a challenge. It??"s even
>>>>>>> moreso
>>>>>>> with a vision disability in my opinion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >I don't want to throw cold water on things, but I've had a lot of
>>>>>>> >frustration in my career. It's no fun when you come in second
>>>>>>> most of the time and people seem to move ahead of you and nothing
>>>>>>> seems to work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >---- Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> >> When I was looking for work with my programming certificate, I got
>>>>>>> >> an offer from the IRS, but the salary was very low, and any
>>>>>>> >> programming would have to be approved by head office in DC. I
>>>>>>> >> declined the offer, and soon got a much better one. Even though I
>>>>>>> >> started at a low, trainee salary, it was still significantly
>>>>>>> >> better
>>>>>>> >> than the IRS was offering. Though perhaps IRS salaries are the
>>>>>>> >> same
>>>>>>> >> across the country, and only low when compared to average New York
>>>>>>> >> salaries.
>>>>>>> >> Tracy
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> > I googled tfor info on the program. A link is below. A one
>>>>>>> >> > paragraph summary is as follows...
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> >> Program Description: The Programming curriculum prepares
>>>>>>> >> >> clients
>>>>>>> >> >> to work
>>>>>>> >> > in a wide range of programming
>>>>>>> >> >> environments including .NET and JAVA, and other application
>>>>>>> >> >> projects as
>>>>>>> >> > well. Certification exams for JAVA and
>>>>>>> >> >> Microsoft Certified Professional Developer (MCPD) are offered
>>>>>>> >> >> through the
>>>>>>> >> > program. Some prior programming
>>>>>>> >> >> experience is helpful, but not necessary to be successful in
>>>>>>> >> >> this course.
>>>>>>> >> > This program often offers the opportunity to get
>>>>>>> >> >> a commitment for employment with the Internal Revenue Service.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > http://lwsb.org/index.php/general-overview/vocational-catalog/#co
>>>>>>> >> > nt
>>>>>>> >> > e
>>>>>>> >> > nt
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > Wasn't it this list where we just had a huge debate about java?
>>>>>>> >> > I'm thinking java programming might be making a huge comeback in
>>>>>>> >> > writing apps for mobile phones. But I'll admit I don't really
>>>>>>> >> > know what I'm talking about. I would note, however, that the
>>>>>>> >> > link
>>>>>>> >> > above indicates that the Lions web site itself is written in
>>>>>>> >> > php,
>>>>>>> >> > not .net or
>>>>>>> java.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> >> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>>>>> >> > Carcione
>>>>>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 9:38 AM
>>>>>>> >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > Hi Daniel.
>>>>>>> >> > I got a programming certificate, after I found I was going
>>>>>>> >> > nowhere with my college degree. I looked around, and found a
>>>>>>> >> > certificate course that taught the languages employers were
>>>>>>> >> > looking for at the time. It was local, not out-of-state.
>>>>>>> >> > If you do go to Lions World, try to make sure that they are
>>>>>>> >> > teaching languages that will actually be in demand.
>>>>>>> >> > Learning programming was a very good move for me. I have a
>>>>>>> >> > secure job that pays well, and is usually interesting. I'm not
>>>>>>> >> > sure if the IRS job pays well, or is interesting.
>>>>>>> >> > My brother is also a blind programmer, working for
>>>>>>> >> > subcontractors
>>>>>>> >> > to the government. He gets paid OK, but gets laid off every few
>>>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>>>> >> > So your results may vary. But I think he'd rather be programming
>>>>>>> >> > than having a rather dull but secure IRS job.
>>>>>>> >> > HTH.
>>>>>>> >> > Tracy
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> >> Hello Everyone:
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> I am legally blind with a background in engineering and
>>>>>>> >> >> manufacturing.
>>>>>>> >> >> After
>>>>>>> >> >> talking with many blind engineers, I find that many of them are
>>>>>>> >> >> thriving computer programmers.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> I am now trying to decide whether to go to Lions World in
>>>>>>> >> >> Little
>>>>>>> >> >> Rock to take their 10 month computer programming course. My
>>>>>>> >> >> counselor at my states agency for the blind wants me to go to
>>>>>>> >> >> Lions World but to take one of their IRS courses, which would
>>>>>>> >> >> in
>>>>>>> >> >> essence be a guaranteed job with the Feds.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> I am the type of person who could do any job, at least that is
>>>>>>> >> >> what my aptitude tests tell me.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> What is life like for blind computer programmers? Do most work
>>>>>>> >> >> for employers or as freelancers/contractors? Are there any
>>>>>>> >> >> languages in particular I should focus on? Are there any other
>>>>>>> >> >> ways of learning computer programming as a blind person than
>>>>>>> >> >> going out of
>>>>>>> state?
>>>>>>> >> >> Learning on my own is just not working for me.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> Any advice you can give would be appreciated.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> Regards
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> Daniel Garcia
>>>>>>> >> >> Northville, MI
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> >> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> >> >> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>> >> >> info for
>>>>>>> >> >> nfbcs:
>>>>>>> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40ac
>>>>>>> >> >> ce
>>>>>>> >> >> s
>>>>>>> >> >> s.n
>>>>>>> >> >> et
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> > nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> >> > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>> >> > info
>>>>>>> >> > for
>>>>>>> >> > nfbcs:
>>>>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.w
>>>>>>> >> > is
>>>>>>> >> > c
>>>>>>> >> > .edu
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> > nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> >> > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>> >> > info
>>>>>>> >> > for
>>>>>>> >> > nfbcs:
>>>>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40acc
>>>>>>> >> > es
>>>>>>> >> > s
>>>>>>> >> > .net
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> >> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.ne
>>>>>>> >> t
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> >nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> > for
>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.
>>>>>>> >ed
>>>>>>> >u
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> >nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> > for
>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40v
>>>>>>> >is
>>>>>>> >i.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>>>>> du
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/ljmaher%40swbell.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/david.hertweck%40sbcgloba
>>> l.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/blindhelpfultech%40gmail.
>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/dgl%40dlee.org
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org
>>>>> http://www.dlee.org
>>>>> SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>>>>> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>>>>> "When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you."
>>>>> --African Proverb
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/blindhelpfultech%40gmail.
>>> com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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