[nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
Anonymous
blindhelpfultech at gmail.com
Wed Oct 17 21:13:01 UTC 2012
Steave I do understand what you are saying about the whole having my
first and last name not listed. My name is nadia cioffi, I have been
on the lists since I was 16 not really replying, untill about 17. I
understand your consern with .cc at this time it is previding me with
free webhosting. If and when this takes off a little bit I will forke
over the cash to get something that does not look so odd. At this
point I need to get content down and then move on to paying for the
extra. As for the CC it is a subdomain of http:fav.cc, I really would
like one of you to check out the hosting as it seems to good that they
are not charging a dime. I also wanted to know who is cheep and
reliable with webhosts as I have had very bad luck with go daddy and
their whole you see what you get and I can't work anything they use.
On 10/15/12, Anonymous <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com> wrote:
> thank you and as for the whole who I am I am Nadia Cioffi and I will
> go into more detail on a diffrent post. else it will just end up
> getting longer.
>
> On 10/14/12, Nancy Coffman <nancylc at sprynet.com> wrote:
>> As far as Internet options, most providers have teers. I am on a medium
>> teer that does most things but buffers video.
>>
>> The Department of Labor has pages with statistics on what types of jobs
>> are
>> hiring right now. It also may depend on where you live. Many
>> information
>> techology professions don't pay as high a wage as they used to. I would
>> be
>> tempted to google something like "high demand jobs" or look at the labor
>> market trends on usa.gov.
>>
>> Nancy Coffman
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Anonymous
>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 11:08 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
>>
>> http://information4all.fav.cc/
>> forgot to add this
>>
>> On 10/14/12, Anonymous <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well thanks Lee and I also wanted to ask something, due to my problems
>>> with math I do not know if i was never thought it in a way, I could
>>> understand or if I just gave up on some of the math in high school I
>>> live in the state of MI and will be moving out in the month of
>>> December and I have low amounts of income until, I am able to get a
>>> job and go to college of some short, I wanted to know if you know of
>>> any cheep relible ISP's with good down and up speeds. The problem is
>>> that I am use to 30 down and 5 up high speed. I wanted to know to do
>>> tasks such as skype, teamtalk, email, my website, and connecting a
>>> braille plus, what service you would you advise and what speed. I also
>>> want to get a phone that HAS no limit on texts, calling and don't
>>> really care about web data as many people still to this day, do not
>>> know what putting a password or a good password that I am able to
>>> guess. My family is just good at using their home phone number as a
>>> wireless password. I also want to go into IT, but I am not quite sure
>>> what and from what I know it is not going to be programming. Can you
>>> please provide me a link to all the diffrent, high demand options?
>>> Also, what would you advise for (a blind enough person to consiter
>>> maybe having eyesight sometime down the road) to go into for IT?
>>>
>>> Doug and all others intrusted, I am making a website for information
>>> for the blind. If we would have understood some things, it would have
>>> been a less painful road. Please do not spam as it is a free host and
>>> if I use up to much CPU on their systems, they will remove my whole
>>> thing. I will post it in here and other groups when I am done.
>>>
>>> Request for the website: If you would like to share your personal
>>> story about how you got a job and what helped and that kind of thing.
>>> Or what peace of advice you have for others. It can be anything
>>> regarding can be anything as my website allows for creative and
>>> diffrent thinking.. I would like at least 6 of these storys.I will put
>>> your story in whole with no editing other then grammer things I
>>> notice, be mindful of what detail you provide.If you wish not to have
>>> your name in the story, please let me know and I will make sure it is
>>> not there., I respect that. This is not my primary email, but if you
>>> would like to be a part of it please contact: blindhelpfultech+tech
>>> with the subject "tell my story". I will understand if there is no
>>> takers to start off with as I have no content on the website yet.
>>>
>>> On 10/14/12, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Mine was software for DOS. There were 2 versions -- Vert Plus which
>>>> came
>>>> with it's own synth that sounded like it had a Swedish accent (I named
>>>> it
>>>> Swen and I used it at work), and Personal Vert, which was less
>>>> expensive,
>>>> and came with an external synth that was annoying to listen to. It was
>>>> lovingly called the little pervert...*smile*
>>>> I always thought that Vert Plus was nastier than the little pervert as
>>>> for
>>>> some reason some of the sentences came out sounding like profanity.
>>>> --le
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Doug Lee" <dgl at dlee.org>
>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:01 AM
>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Verts (was Re: Career Advice)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Quick reply to one question from Laura: I used both PC Vert and Soft
>>>> Vert! Wonder which one you had. PC Vert was an external, monotone
>>>> speech box, while Soft Vert was software, as the name implies. I
>>>> thought Soft Vert sounded a bit like a bored version of DecTalk. PC
>>>> Vert was what the U of Illinois Rehab Center had available, so I used
>>>> that quite a lot.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:49:04PM -0500, qubit wrote:
>>>> With an attitude like that, you will go far Nadia.
>>>> Although I don't have the same eye condition you have (my eyes didn't
>>>> die),
>>>> I had very low and gradually decreasing vision in one eye over the
>>>> space
>>>> of
>>>> 40 years, and so I overused my eye all through school, grad school and
>>>> career. After years of intense and sometimes stressful work, I began
>>>> to
>>>> suffer from anxiety over the fact that everything depended on my
>>>> fragile
>>>> eye
>>>> as I pushed my vision to the limit.
>>>> I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
>>>> At one point I got myself a screen reader to help with reading emails,
>>>> and
>>>> that was really amazing in helping with eye strain. But it was an
>>>> awkward
>>>> screen reader to use -- anyone else use Vert?
>>>> Then came windows, which went from being a novelty to being a
>>>> requirement
>>>> in
>>>> the workplace.
>>>> I got jaws for windows (not sure why I picked jaws rather than
>>>> windoweyes).
>>>> But yes, you have to force yourself to make time for keeping up with
>>>> access
>>>> tech.
>>>>
>>>> As for programming, I don't think it is that much more difficult for a
>>>> blind
>>>> person, as most the time you spend thinking rather than reading or
>>>> writing.
>>>> If you have good math skills, it is not bad at all.
>>>> My only difficulty now is that I still miss seeing the screen when I am
>>>> coding. Using speech is not as natural for me as visualizing the code
>>>> and
>>>> structure is easier when I can see the code. That is where a braille
>>>> display is helpful, but I am not a fast braille reader.
>>>> Well, good luck and happy hacking all.
>>>> --le
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Anonymous" <blindhelpfultech at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 1:41 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have learned the lesson over time that personal story written by
>>>> someone on the list is so true. I had many people point out to me and
>>>> this is sad in a way, but I guess has been the problem. When people
>>>> tell you just to use your vision to get by, it is fine until you don't
>>>> have the option of giving up or trying your best, for me that has
>>>> never been good enough. I am moving out soon and in ways from what my
>>>> friend stated you are using more ideas that they give you for complete
>>>> blindness. I looked into what and how I was going about things before
>>>> I learned the light went on in my head that maybe just seeing is not
>>>> good enough anymore. I have a really long personal story to go along
>>>> with this. I am sorry in advance for the long email.
>>>>
>>>> Starting my 8th grade year, I noticed that I could not read the board
>>>> in school, even if I was about 2 feet or less away from it. I know
>>>> braille enough to pick up on what I have lost so far, thankfully that
>>>> is the case. I learned it my 4th grade year in about one year and it
>>>> was at one point faster then my print reading. That was until I hit my
>>>> 6th grade year and "I thought I just did not have the time." In all
>>>> truth looking back on it, I did not think I was going to need it. As
>>>> one would think well my vision is fine now and what is the need for
>>>> it?
>>>>
>>>> When I was in fourth grade due to my eye condition, I lost all the
>>>> remaining eyesight in my left eye and according to my family I did not
>>>> even tell them. My eye condition is very rare and if you get it before
>>>> your ten from what I read you have a 50/50 chance of having no
>>>> eyesight. Growing up in school, I was always told use your eyes and I
>>>> would always recant I am using them to the best of my ability.
>>>>
>>>> I started working with computers when I was about 9 around my 8th
>>>> grade year, my family and I could not put two and two together about
>>>> why I would go through one computer system, every 3 months. In some
>>>> shape or forum it would be unusable. I kept claiming, I know what I am
>>>> doing and they would always say then why do we have to get another
>>>> system repaired again. They also stated and you want to go into IT? I
>>>> said of course technology has been a huge tool in my life and I enjoy
>>>> it a lot. They would always say good luck getting a job with braking
>>>> tech all the time.
>>>>
>>>> . My freshman year and maybe my whole life. When no one was reading
>>>> things to me. I had to take a test without anyone reading it and I
>>>> mainly played fill in the gap and hope what I am replying is right. At
>>>> least well my aid was away, school became a nightmare.
>>>>
>>>> My soft more year in high school, my left eye kept watering and they
>>>> kept saying it is allergens and I kept saying then why does it feel
>>>> like you just sliced my eye with a knife in many spots and why does it
>>>> keep watering. It got worse and worse. Well after four months of
>>>> debate and many eye doctor visits, I found out my eye was dying in my
>>>> head and I had two options. Mind you, I was only 16 at that time and
>>>> it felt like a huge choice and I just didn't want to regret the option
>>>> I made. The two options were remove the eye, have another surgery and
>>>> wait 6 months and maybe it would not even work. I said to my mom on
>>>> the way to the eye doctor before I knew my two options. "why the heck
>>>> do I even have this eye, I can't see out of it and it constantly
>>>> causes pain and problems" "What good is it doing for me being there
>>>> anyway?" I ended up getting rid of it and just being done with half
>>>> the eye problems.
>>>>
>>>> Shortly after this problem, this happen in reply to my actions and
>>>> statements.
>>>>
>>>> 10th grade year I was just about ready to pull my hair out as it
>>>> seemed, I kept telling people I can't read or see that or it is to
>>>> far away or just email me the darn thing. I kept getting the reply
>>>> "you could see that last year". I kept saying well it is not last year
>>>> now is it, it is a new year with new things and maybe new things I
>>>> can't read. After that remark I was told by my mom once I said I feel
>>>> like I am missing a lot more then I use to. She said, I agree and some
>>>> of the evidence is your emails that don't turn out with right spelling
>>>> and missing words in the middle of what statement you are typing. She
>>>> said to me just wait, in a day we have a low vision evaluation. I said
>>>> ok and I was also not thinking or knowing what she meant by that, but
>>>> I just went with it.
>>>>
>>>> The light went on for all of us once he said your "legally blind" and
>>>> I said what does that mean to me other then just another term. He said
>>>> well it means a lot in services and might have been the reason why you
>>>> broke things and could not read much. After that happened I went down
>>>> to the center in Kalmazoo for a combined 6 and a half months with the
>>>> summers, I spent there.
>>>>
>>>> The first summer may I mind you I spent the first 4 weeks, killing
>>>> myself over the darn keybourd test, why I did not understand. It was
>>>> the numbers and the shift options, I kept missing or mixing up. After
>>>> getting that down.
>>>>
>>>> The second summer I walked into my class again. I walked into my
>>>> technology class and he said after looking at how I use the computer
>>>> on a normal day with nothing extra to help. Your eye looks like it is
>>>> going to fall out of your head with the amount of strain and I said so
>>>> it was not just me skipping around and missing things. He said nope,
>>>> just someone who has never been told about AT? I looked at him and he
>>>> explained I had two options at that point, JAWS or ZoomText. After a
>>>> week I noticed that I just could not stand zoomtext, I told him well
>>>> first off if I need to I can use windows magnifier, but if I can't see
>>>> past that amount of zoom, I should be using JAWS anyway. He later
>>>> noted in my report the following:
>>>>
>>>> 1. The school never took the time to explain other options and I said
>>>> at one point, I feel like I am starting over with technology and using
>>>> AT. He noted that was very true and he understands that everyone feels
>>>> that way at first.
>>>> 2. I had a very visual understanding of windows, but give me jaws and
>>>> ask what a heading is, I would just ask him to explain.
>>>> 3. I wanted jaws to prepare for the worst and I just wanted my
>>>> computer to look as normal as possible along with using something that
>>>> I will not have to relearn. If something happened.
>>>>
>>>> I went home, started a great debate with my school after a year and a
>>>> half of fighting, I have access to jaws and a laptop.
>>>>
>>>> A few things I would have never learned if I would have not wanted to
>>>> know how things work:
>>>> HTML and W3C guidelines Alone with windows shortcuts that I never
>>>> heard of before. Someone called me and said my mouse broke, can I shut
>>>> down the system, until I get a new mouse and I said sure you can and
>>>> walked them through it.
>>>>
>>>> My teacher at school, I broke my computer. The whole desktop was
>>>> zoomed in and I said try hitting CRL and moving the mouse wheel and it
>>>> worked. She called IT they were sitting there, watching me walk
>>>> through it and they said I thought it was the video card, I never
>>>> thought of looking there. They left and said to her just ask nadia
>>>> before we get a phone call next time.
>>>>
>>>> My point being I have learned after the third summer there "i am
>>>> faster when I am blindfolded vs looking at things. That was also noted
>>>> and it hit me, the problem is I had my eyesight doing everything it
>>>> couldn't.
>>>>
>>>> I am now 19 and am starting to relize that braille is a priority just
>>>> as much as learning jaws was. I have only used jaws for 1 year and 6
>>>> months combined with a full copy and not just a 40 minute demo, but
>>>> for some reason I still get the phone calls asking things from people
>>>> who have been blind there whole life.
>>>>
>>>> It has come to the point where I call places no longer saying I am
>>>> visually impaired, I say blind. It works better as they tend to be
>>>> more detailed and then I can ask my visual questions and most of them
>>>> will just say, you use to have more eyesight and still am a little bit
>>>> of a visual person and I say yes and end of phone call. When I started
>>>> saying that it was my way of accepting the fact that yes my vision is
>>>> not reliable for most things, I was trying to have it do what it could
>>>> not..
>>>>
>>>> Some side notes: I walked into MCB the first summer and they said what
>>>> size font would you like your documents in and I replied 12. They said
>>>> well something here does not match. I said what do you mean? People
>>>> are telling you that that is as big as they can get things? I said
>>>> nope, I am just use to it. They said well do me a favor stop being use
>>>> to killing your eyes from here on out. I said ok and I at the age of
>>>> 16 had no idea what they were trying to tell me. I now after meeting
>>>> someone and talking with them about it, he said to me they are trying
>>>> to kindly say, your not trying to kill your eye by doing what you were
>>>> use to here. I said something to the effect to them, well most of the
>>>> time I am told it can't be more then 3 pages you print. They said
>>>> well, here we do not give a care about the paper we go through as long
>>>> as we are not killing your eyes. I then from there am use to size 26
>>>> and when I walked back into school and said it is not big enough they
>>>> said "14 use to be ok, and I said well use to I was killing my eye
>>>> going by something I did not no any better." I said to my friend
>>>> awhile back, when I started using jaws for a year, I feel like maybe
>>>> my eyesight is not as bad. he said trust me it is, but you have
>>>> learned what strain is and what amounts you were doing when, you did
>>>> not have anything bigger when you requested it. I went back to the
>>>> center and the notes were the following:
>>>> 1. I think she has stopped using her vision as much and she is more
>>>> productive that way.
>>>> 2. She seems to be ok with the facts now
>>>>
>>>> Point just due to the fact of you being use to something does not mean
>>>> it was not killing your eyes to start off with. A good friend of mine
>>>> told me the following:
>>>>
>>>> Size 14 ? He said "That is torcher" I said why? He said think about it
>>>> anything you are pushed to do that creates the amount of strain your
>>>> eye was under for 14 years and created pain is in my book the word
>>>> "torcher".
>>>>
>>>> The top things a blind person has in their toolkit when getting a job
>>>> and keeping it is the following:
>>>>
>>>> -Willingness to take work home with them and learn
>>>> -Happy to learn new things
>>>> -Advocate for themselves
>>>> -
>>>> Most of all motivation, it is different for each person, but part of
>>>> my motivation that people say they cannot seem to understand is.
>>>> -I want to be productive, but when I have time off, I don?t use it for
>>>> time off.
>>>> Example my summer job review, your always doing something on your time
>>>> off, I don?t understand. Do nothing for once. It is your day off why
>>>> are you still around doing things? ?Even when there is ?nothing to
>>>> do?, you find something to do.? I was always told even if there is no
>>>> ?task to be done, there is always something else to be done? Most of
>>>> the time that is learning or making your job more effective.
>>>> -I want to learn new things; in fact, that is what I do in my spare
>>>> time
>>>> -Kill myths and untrue things about blindness
>>>> -Help others
>>>> -Do the job to my best and find ways to do it better
>>>> -Insults are a challenge for me to do even better at things along with
>>>> degrading terms
>>>> Example: you spend too much time on something =I find another way to
>>>> do it and do it as well.
>>>> Example: Your so picky it drives me crazy = be more picky and
>>>> proficient
>>>> One thing that motivates me more than that though is learning new
>>>> things, I like to learn new things and say I learned myself. That for
>>>> some reason never is old.
>>>> Something that drives people nuts that helps me out a lot though is
>>>> being positive. Someone said to me why are you so happy all the
>>>> time??? I said, I may not be but why must I drag you down as well?
>>>>
>>>> Work ethic and willingness to learn gets you far and as one person
>>>> said "one thing blind people have going for them, is we are use to
>>>> challeges and having to overcome them. I agree with that as well.
>>>>
>>>> With regards,
>>>> Nadia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/13/12, david hertweck <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> Yes as a computer scientist / engineer doing design / architecture
>>>>> work
>>>>> gives a person more flexibility. Also management.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Louis Maher
>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:50 PM
>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>
>>>>> Another answer is to study as much math and other sciences as possible
>>>>> so
>>>>> that you can become a scientist and can design the algorithms and not
>>>>> just
>>>>> follow the lead of others.
>>>>>
>>>>> You must love math and physics, or some other science, to make this
>>>>> work.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Louis Maher
>>>>> 713-444-7838
>>>>> ljmaher at swbell.net
>>>>> http://www.nfbtx.org/localchapters/houston
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> majolls at cox.net
>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:10 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>
>>>>> I did paint a rather dark picture, but I was just stating facts. I
>>>>> wanted
>>>>> to make sure that budding programmers knew what they were getting
>>>>> into.
>>>>> That might make someone think twice whether programming (and the
>>>>> challenges
>>>>> that go along with it for a blind person) is really their thing. Do
>>>>> they
>>>>> want to put up with the daily challenges? Doing extra work that
>>>>> normally
>>>>> sighted people don't have to do? Perhaps not going as fast and being
>>>>> penalized for your vision which imposes that limitation ... being
>>>>> judged
>>>>> for
>>>>> something you have no control over? On this last point, you probably
>>>>> will
>>>>> experience this in any job, not just programming. That's why I said
>>>>> you
>>>>> need to have your solutions and skills up to snuff before you get into
>>>>> the
>>>>> job. That way you know what accomodations to ask for and you know
>>>>> they
>>>>> work. And that's why you need to think about the duties of the job
>>>>> BEFORE
>>>>> you get there .. so your solutions address as many issues as possible,
>>>>> and
>>>>> you don't have very many issues and surprises on the job. It will
>>>>> save
>>>>> you
>>>>> a lot of headaches. When I started working back in the late 70's, I
>>>>> hadn't
>>>>> put 2 and 2 together. I was a naive 22-year old kid who thought the
>>>>> world
>>>>> was my oyster and had no concept of being measured on a job. We were
>>>>> all
>>>>> told we could do anything we wanted to do, but nobody told me that I
>>>>> needed
>>>>> to be aware that the disability would throw me curves and make it more
>>>>> difficult to achieve what everyone else took for granted. I guess I
>>>>> was
>>>>> dumb.
>>>>> I had no idea how much slower I was or what impact poor vision would
>>>>> have
>>>>> on
>>>>> my career. I hadn't learned Braille and screen readers hadn't been
>>>>> invented
>>>>> yet. So all I had was my vision and reading print. I found out real
>>>>> fast
>>>>> that others could do things in less time and It was a rude awakening
>>>>> when
>>>>> I
>>>>> realized that I was being punished for something that was beyond my
>>>>> control.
>>>>> I'm not sure I would have listened to someone at that age if they told
>>>>> me
>>>>> to
>>>>> be aware of what problems the disability might bring, but I wish
>>>>> someone
>>>>> had
>>>>> told me of what to expect. It's your career that's at stake. I might
>>>>> have
>>>>> tried to prepare more, although at that time a lot of the technology
>>>>> wasn't
>>>>> even around. I'd just hate for someone else to experience any of this
>>>>> when
>>>>> maybe a few words of warning might help them.
>>>>>
>>>>> You know, I've heard blind people say ... "I don't want to be treated
>>>>> any
>>>>> differently than a normally sighted person", but do they really know
>>>>> what
>>>>> they're asking for? In the end, that's exactly how the employer will
>>>>> treat
>>>>> them. And they'll measure them against the standard that other
>>>>> normally
>>>>> sighted have to work toward. That's why they HAVE to be prepared and
>>>>> know
>>>>> their solutions ahead of time. If they'll get what they ask for and
>>>>> it
>>>>> might not be what they expect and/or hope for.
>>>>>
>>>>> And here's something that may be interesting to some of you. Personal
>>>>> story.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had been programming for a number of years and I didn't have any
>>>>> answers
>>>>> to the issues I've stated. I was using my vision all the time to
>>>>> program
>>>>> and simply didn't see a solution. I was taking a programming design
>>>>> course
>>>>> and the book we were reading talked about making software
>>>>> efficient/faster.
>>>>> The book eventually said ... "if you don't change the fundamental
>>>>> architecture of the software, you'll only be able to go as fast as the
>>>>> limitation the architecture imposes upon you". When I read that, the
>>>>> lightbulb went on. I realized that as long as I used my vision to do
>>>>> the
>>>>> job, I was limited to what my vision could do. If I was going to be
>>>>> more
>>>>> efficient ... if I was going to have any chance of going faster ... or
>>>>> doing
>>>>> this more efficiently ... I would have to STOP USING MY VISION to the
>>>>> extent
>>>>> possible. In other words, find an alternate method. That's something
>>>>> I
>>>>> had
>>>>> NEVER considered because being raised with vision .. it's drilled into
>>>>> your
>>>>> head that you read print, that you just go get glasses, or you just do
>>>>> the
>>>>> best you can and basically give up because that's all you can do.
>>>>>
>>>>> The big takeaway was to eliminate the vision. I'm a firm believer
>>>>> that
>>>>> this
>>>>> is what you have to do. Find a different solution that removes the
>>>>> problem.
>>>>> You know the old adage ... if you keep doing something the same way,
>>>>> why
>>>>> should you expect a different answer? I think you have to get rid of
>>>>> the
>>>>> method that doesn't work to expect any sort of improvement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Solutions to that issue ... learn Braille .. use a Braille display ..
>>>>> learn
>>>>> Jaws (or some screen reader). Know how fast you read with your vision
>>>>> and
>>>>> strive to get to where you can read faster with the alternate tools
>>>>> since
>>>>> you know that the vision is your Achiles hheel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since then I have measured myself. I know that I only read print at
>>>>> 130wpm.
>>>>> No wonder people (when reading a page of text) get done in half the
>>>>> time!!
>>>>> I have since found out that normal people read at around 250wpm. And
>>>>> that's
>>>>> one reason that I've learned Braille. Well, I'm only reading 65 wpm
>>>>> in
>>>>> Braille, but I know with print, I don't have any chance of exceeding
>>>>> the
>>>>> 130
>>>>> barrier. Fifty + years of experience there. Maybe with Braille I'll
>>>>> eventually get to 200.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, this was a rather lengthy email. But maybe the idea stated by
>>>>> Clint
>>>>> Eastwood in his Dirty Harry movies .. "A man has to know his
>>>>> limitations"
>>>>> ... has been brought out here. Know them. Know what problems they'll
>>>>> impose upon you. Then try to find alternate solutions that will help
>>>>> you
>>>>> overcome them. It's the only way I can see to help you compete in
>>>>> this
>>>>> world. If you don't do that, you simply get run over.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> I don't know if you meant it the way it sounds but I don't think you
>>>>>> have to be a hotshot to program in java or python.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was once in a job interview and they asked me which programming
>>>>>> languages I knew. I said I know all of them. Give me a week with any
>>>>>> programming language and I'll be an expert in it. Maybe not the
>>>>>> ultimate expert but an expert none the less. I got the job and they
>>>>>> said it was that answer more than any other that got me the job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMO, it's important to look upon the challenge of learning something
>>>>>> new as an opportunity. Think of how much more valuable you'll be to
>>>>>> your company once you've learned that new programming language or
>>>>>> operating system. Think of how proud you'll be of yourself for
>>>>>> having
>>>>>> succeeded at something that even sighted people struggle with. IMO,
>>>>>> it's no different from blindness itself. It kinda sucks but the only
>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to do is to attack the challenge.
>>>>>> In fact, I'd say that's one way we blind people have the advantage.
>>>>>> We
>>>>>> know how to overcome challenges.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS: I'm willing to admit that what I say above might not be literally
>>>>>> true.
>>>>>> For example, it may have taken me a little more than a week to become
>>>>>> an expert in java programming. That might even have taken 2 weeks.
>>>>>> :-).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>>>>> Freeman
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:15 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I concur completely with Steve's observations below. These days, in a
>>>>>> business or even government environment, less and less traditional
>>>>>> programming is being done and more and more what programming there is
>>>>>> is contracted out. Moreover, as Steve says, increasingly, businesses
>>>>>> and government are buying off-the-shelf software packages (some of
>>>>>> which are screen-reader-accessible and some of which are not). A few
>>>>>> hot-shot blind programmers are going into environments such as C# and
>>>>>> java and more are working in interpretive languages such as Pithon.
>>>>>> But, as Steve says, a number of us are going into other arenas such
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> network administration.
>>>>>> Over the past few years, my government agency has gone from a HP
>>>>>> OpenVMS environment to a windows environment (alas, I wish my agency
>>>>>> had chosen
>>>>>> UNIX) and so I'm having to come up to speed rather quickly to become
>>>>>> an administrator of Windows Server ? 2008 R2 systems. When I began my
>>>>>> employment 33 years ago, I was actually doing systems programming in
>>>>>> assembly language and if we wanted data brought into our computer
>>>>>> systems, we wrote the routines directly to do this including the
>>>>>> drivers for the hardware that handled the data. No more. As Steve
>>>>>> says, we have a lot of SQL and other packages running on servers
>>>>>> running essentially what is Windows 7 on steroids -- Windows Server?
>>>>>> 2008
>>>>>> R2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure I'd advise programming as a good entry-level job path
>>>>>> today either. But those who find it fascinating *can* find jobs. But
>>>>>> the environment is much more competitive and fast-paced than it once
>>>>>> was and many tasks these days are more one-off and less are
>>>>>> continuing
>>>>>> maintenance of existing tasks, at least in my shop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And all this is complicated by the almost paranoid interest in
>>>>>> security these days. It often just about takes an act of Congress to
>>>>>> get a screen-reader on one's work station now, for example. This may
>>>>>> just be an artifact of the electric power system (where I work) but I
>>>>>> suspect it goes further than this. I remember some time this year
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> one fellow was trying to figure out how to hook up his laptop with
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> his specialized blind-friendly programming tools on secure corporate
>>>>>> networks where such connectivity is basically forbidden. I have
>>>>>> somewhat the same problem in that I can't hook up my BrailleSensePLUS
>>>>>> to my workstation without violating policies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So the environment isn't as straightforward as it once was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I, too, take extra time and seldom put in for comp time even
>>>>>> though I'm allowed to. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>>> Jacobson
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:12 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Generally I would agree with both of you, too, but what I would say
>>>>>> for my two cents is that I don't know that I would start out now as a
>>>>>> programmer if I was looking to work for a company. Certainly there
>>>>>> are still programming jobs, but there are not the jobs there used to
>>>>>> be. It is much, much more common now for companies to buy software
>>>>>> that they can use to perform many of the functions they used to
>>>>>> accomplish with in-house systems that were designed and written by
>>>>>> their programmers and analysts. When companies need to have
>>>>>> programming done, it is far more common now to contract it out or
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> outsource it to off-shore locations.
>>>>>> However, there is a lot of need yet for people who are skilled in
>>>>>> database design and knowing how to work with databases which includes
>>>>>> a thorough knowledge of SQL. SQL isn't programming but is rewarding
>>>>>> and challenging in its own way. There is quite a bit being done with
>>>>>> networking, too, and there are some blind people who are involved
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> network administration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, if one is thinking of developing software and wants to
>>>>>> write it some themselves, a programming language is very important.
>>>>>> Also, if one has his or her eyes on a specific area where programming
>>>>>> is common, learning a programming language is still a good idea. I
>>>>>> also think there is value to be gained by learning a programming
>>>>>> language and writing something just to get a sense of what is
>>>>>> necessary. I wonder, though, what the success rate is for blind
>>>>>> persons or anyone for that matter, going to school to learn a
>>>>>> programming language and then getting a good job. I am in a position
>>>>>> where I work that occasionally has me looking at a COBOL program to
>>>>>> see what is wrong with it. We still run a good bit of COBOL here,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> the maintenance of COBOL is contracted out. My value to my company,
>>>>>> probably more than programming, is my in depth knowledge of how the
>>>>>> business processes relate to our computer systems. That has allowed
>>>>>> me to take that expertise and bring it with me as I changed to a
>>>>>> different computer platform, working primarily with databases. Like
>>>>>> John, I anticipated where the need would be and felt I could do all
>>>>>> right in the SQL environment and found reasons to learn quite a bit
>>>>>> about that, some on my own time, so when there was a push in that
>>>>>> direction, I had at least some of the tools I needed. For someone
>>>>>> just starting out in this field, it is very important to look at the
>>>>>> entire field, get some idea of what is interesting and also what fits
>>>>>> ones strengths. One also needs to look at what one can do for a long
>>>>>> enough time to get some understanding of how a given employer does
>>>>>> business even if it isn't ideal, knowing one might be able to move
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> something they like better having gained that experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fifteen years ago, I would never have believed what a mixed bag
>>>>>> accessibility still is. Unfortunately, there are going to be
>>>>>> companies who are using tools that are inaccessible enough to make
>>>>>> working for that company a loosing bet. I still maintain a hope that
>>>>>> things will continue to improve, but it can still be a factor.
>>>>>> Sometimes it is clearly the developers of software who are to blame,
>>>>>> but some of the problem is that screen reader developers just don't
>>>>>> have time to implement newer technologies that could be accessible
>>>>>> because they are so busy chasing the development of the latest
>>>>>> operating systems. I don't know the answer to that particular
>>>>>> problem. Anyway, there are probably no exact answers, but hopefully
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> responses provide some useful food for thought.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:21:39 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >I pretty much agree with everything you say below although I might
>>>>>> >not paint quite such a dark picture. But, yeah, I feel I've
>>>>>> been successful in my career by working harder than everybody else,
>>>>>> putting in extra time to make up for being slower than the sighted
>>>>>> guys, and doing a lot of research on my own time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >I also agree with the point about keeping your skills up. There is
>>>>>> >this phenomenon I call "backwatering". New technologies tend
>>>>>> to be inaccessible so a blind technologist doesn't get the assignment
>>>>>> of working with them. Slowly, he becomes less and less crucial to his
>>>>>> company because he's working with old technology. Then when layoffs
>>>>>> come around, he's the one to go. And in some ways, that's only fair.
>>>>>> After all, he is the least important member of the team.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >IMO, its important to be very aggressive in pursuing new
>>>>>> > technologies.
>>>>>> >I taught myself on my own time almost all the skills I use
>>>>>> in my current job. I am sure there are jobs where that isn't
>>>>>> necessary
>>>>>> but they are few and far between. Also, to some degree it depends on
>>>>>> what you want out of your career. I work for the University of
>>>>>> Wisconsin and they don't layoff people very often. But a few years
>>>>>> ago, I went to my boss and said I thought my skills were being wasted
>>>>>> and that I could do a lot more, he said, "What's your problem? You're
>>>>>> still getting paid, aren't you?" But I wasn't satisfied just pulling
>>>>>> down a paycheck. Plus, I figured that eventually they'd get around to
>>>>>> getting rid of me. So I switched jobs and got into a different
>>>>>> department.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> >majolls at cox.net
>>>>>> >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:31 AM
>>>>>> >To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> >Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>>>>> >Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >Working in the computer field is a challenging experience,
>>>>>> > especially
>>>>>> >for a
>>>>>> blind person (well partially sighted in my case).
>>>>>> Here are some things to consider:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >Know your craft thoroughly. Be as prepared with your programming
>>>>>> >languages as you possibly can be. Corporations are looking for
>>>>>> people that can solve a problem quickly and who know where to go look
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> they don??"t know the answers. Therefore, you need to
>>>>>> be as knowledgeable as you possibly can be in whatever programming
>>>>>> languages you decide to work in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Know your weaknesses and have solutions in place before you go get
>>>>>> > the job. It??"s a competitive environment out there and the
>>>>>> people that can get the job done right in the shortest amount of time
>>>>>> at the least cost are the ones that seem to rise to the top at least
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> my
>>>>>>
>>>>>> company.
>>>>>> You need to know any limitations your disability places on you and
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> need to have a solution BEFORE you go to the job so it doesn??"t hurt
>>>>>> you in your career and you can keep up with the normally sighted
>>>>>> people. For example, my reading speed is about 130wpm. A normal
>>>>>> person
>>>>>> reads at about 250wpm.
>>>>>> You can see it will take me twice as long reading as someone else.
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> my daily job, I??"m constantly reading code on the computer monitor.
>>>>>> So you can see how a normal person without any vision issues will
>>>>>> finish things before me. Doing your best in this case is not good
>>>>>> enough because you??"ll always be coming in last. And that equates
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> less money at your performance review. Trust me, I have 30+ years of
>>>>>> experience to back me up on this. If you think Braille, for example,
>>>>>> will help overcome slow reading, or using programs such as Jaws,
>>>>>> learn
>>>>>> it BEFORE you get to the job so there??"s no chance of supervisors
>>>>>> forming
>>>>>>
>>>>>> opinions of how you work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >Know that the job will eventually change, and sooner than later. In
>>>>>> >my job, new technologies are always coming up. The company
>>>>>> is looking for faster and better ways of doing things. And that
>>>>>> means
>>>>>> they??"re trying new programming languages, new things to make us
>>>>>> meaner and leaner programmers. And that means that you have to learn
>>>>>> quickly, and probably more often than you would like. You may be
>>>>>> required (not by your employer but just by the fact that you have to
>>>>>> keep up) to spend extra hours in the evening learning if you don??"t
>>>>>> have enough time during the day. The years of learning a few things
>>>>>> for your job and doing that for 5-10 years are gone. Figure on
>>>>>> having
>>>>>> to relearn your job every couple of years depending on what new thing
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> coming out.
>>>>>> You have to ask yourself if you feel like keeping up like that all
>>>>>> the time, or if your disability will put limitations on you there.
>>>>>> You are definitely under pressure in these situations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >Be prepared to work overtime. If you??"re in a professional job
>>>>>> > such
>>>>>> >as I am and you??"re not as fast as others, it??"s going to
>>>>>> take you more hours to do the same work in a time-frame that an
>>>>>> employer considers normal. I??"ve come to the conclusion I can
>>>>>> probably never please my employer. Or, if you have to do the
>>>>>> training
>>>>>> thing, you may not get it all done in the course of 8 hours. In my
>>>>>> job, an 8 hour day is the thing of the past. I work more like a 10
>>>>>> hour day just to stay even .. to make up for my poor eyesight. Even
>>>>>> with technology such as screen magnification and speech, and Braille,
>>>>>> I still work a 10 hour day. With the demands of the job, it??"s just
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> standard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >So consider all these things. Perhaps you can assess your situation
>>>>>> >and justify going into computer programming. It is a good
>>>>>> career, but to keep up and compete is a challenge. It??"s even
>>>>>> moreso
>>>>>> with a vision disability in my opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >I don't want to throw cold water on things, but I've had a lot of
>>>>>> >frustration in my career. It's no fun when you come in second
>>>>>> most of the time and people seem to move ahead of you and nothing
>>>>>> seems to work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >---- Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >> When I was looking for work with my programming certificate, I got
>>>>>> >> an offer from the IRS, but the salary was very low, and any
>>>>>> >> programming would have to be approved by head office in DC. I
>>>>>> >> declined the offer, and soon got a much better one. Even though I
>>>>>> >> started at a low, trainee salary, it was still significantly
>>>>>> >> better
>>>>>> >> than the IRS was offering. Though perhaps IRS salaries are the
>>>>>> >> same
>>>>>> >> across the country, and only low when compared to average New York
>>>>>> >> salaries.
>>>>>> >> Tracy
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> > I googled tfor info on the program. A link is below. A one
>>>>>> >> > paragraph summary is as follows...
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >> Program Description: The Programming curriculum prepares
>>>>>> >> >> clients
>>>>>> >> >> to work
>>>>>> >> > in a wide range of programming
>>>>>> >> >> environments including .NET and JAVA, and other application
>>>>>> >> >> projects as
>>>>>> >> > well. Certification exams for JAVA and
>>>>>> >> >> Microsoft Certified Professional Developer (MCPD) are offered
>>>>>> >> >> through the
>>>>>> >> > program. Some prior programming
>>>>>> >> >> experience is helpful, but not necessary to be successful in
>>>>>> >> >> this course.
>>>>>> >> > This program often offers the opportunity to get
>>>>>> >> >> a commitment for employment with the Internal Revenue Service.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > http://lwsb.org/index.php/general-overview/vocational-catalog/#co
>>>>>> >> > nt
>>>>>> >> > e
>>>>>> >> > nt
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Wasn't it this list where we just had a huge debate about java?
>>>>>> >> > I'm thinking java programming might be making a huge comeback in
>>>>>> >> > writing apps for mobile phones. But I'll admit I don't really
>>>>>> >> > know what I'm talking about. I would note, however, that the
>>>>>> >> > link
>>>>>> >> > above indicates that the Lions web site itself is written in
>>>>>> >> > php,
>>>>>> >> > not .net or
>>>>>> java.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>>>> >> > Carcione
>>>>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 9:38 AM
>>>>>> >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Hi Daniel.
>>>>>> >> > I got a programming certificate, after I found I was going
>>>>>> >> > nowhere with my college degree. I looked around, and found a
>>>>>> >> > certificate course that taught the languages employers were
>>>>>> >> > looking for at the time. It was local, not out-of-state.
>>>>>> >> > If you do go to Lions World, try to make sure that they are
>>>>>> >> > teaching languages that will actually be in demand.
>>>>>> >> > Learning programming was a very good move for me. I have a
>>>>>> >> > secure job that pays well, and is usually interesting. I'm not
>>>>>> >> > sure if the IRS job pays well, or is interesting.
>>>>>> >> > My brother is also a blind programmer, working for
>>>>>> >> > subcontractors
>>>>>> >> > to the government. He gets paid OK, but gets laid off every few
>>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>>> >> > So your results may vary. But I think he'd rather be programming
>>>>>> >> > than having a rather dull but secure IRS job.
>>>>>> >> > HTH.
>>>>>> >> > Tracy
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >> Hello Everyone:
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> I am legally blind with a background in engineering and
>>>>>> >> >> manufacturing.
>>>>>> >> >> After
>>>>>> >> >> talking with many blind engineers, I find that many of them are
>>>>>> >> >> thriving computer programmers.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> I am now trying to decide whether to go to Lions World in
>>>>>> >> >> Little
>>>>>> >> >> Rock to take their 10 month computer programming course. My
>>>>>> >> >> counselor at my states agency for the blind wants me to go to
>>>>>> >> >> Lions World but to take one of their IRS courses, which would
>>>>>> >> >> in
>>>>>> >> >> essence be a guaranteed job with the Feds.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> I am the type of person who could do any job, at least that is
>>>>>> >> >> what my aptitude tests tell me.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> What is life like for blind computer programmers? Do most work
>>>>>> >> >> for employers or as freelancers/contractors? Are there any
>>>>>> >> >> languages in particular I should focus on? Are there any other
>>>>>> >> >> ways of learning computer programming as a blind person than
>>>>>> >> >> going out of
>>>>>> state?
>>>>>> >> >> Learning on my own is just not working for me.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> Any advice you can give would be appreciated.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> Regards
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> Daniel Garcia
>>>>>> >> >> Northville, MI
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> >> >> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>> >> >> info for
>>>>>> >> >> nfbcs:
>>>>>> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40ac
>>>>>> >> >> ce
>>>>>> >> >> s
>>>>>> >> >> s.n
>>>>>> >> >> et
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> > nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> >> > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>> >> > info
>>>>>> >> > for
>>>>>> >> > nfbcs:
>>>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.w
>>>>>> >> > is
>>>>>> >> > c
>>>>>> >> > .edu
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> > nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> >> > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>> >> > info
>>>>>> >> > for
>>>>>> >> > nfbcs:
>>>>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40acc
>>>>>> >> > es
>>>>>> >> > s
>>>>>> >> > .net
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> >> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.ne
>>>>>> >> t
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>>> >nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> >nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> > for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.
>>>>>> >ed
>>>>>> >u
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>>> >nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> >nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> > for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40v
>>>>>> >is
>>>>>> >i.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.e
>>>>>> du
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/ljmaher%40swbell.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/david.hertweck%40sbcgloba
>> l.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/blindhelpfultech%40gmail.
>> com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/dgl%40dlee.org
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org
>>>> http://www.dlee.org
>>>> SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>>>> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>>>> "When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you."
>>>> --African Proverb
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/blindhelpfultech%40gmail.
>> com
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/nancylc%40sprynet.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/blindhelpfultech%40gmail.com
>>
>
More information about the NFBCS
mailing list