[nfbcs] Math software

[Steve Jacobson]

Currently, there are challenges to be overcome with all approaches to educating blind children, particularly in math.  I, for one, 
would not want to discourage you from looking at alternative ways of solving the problem.  On the other hand, if you have the 
tallent to come up with a solution, I don't want to see such a tallent wasted, either, if it seems there might be roadblocks that 
are hard to circumvent.  My first reaction to what you have written is that this is really a huge project,and I also feel that 
expressing the goal is far easier than meeting that goal.  Some of what you are detecting in responses is skepticism that what you are 
proposing can be achieved in a way that will be accepted by those who must accept it.  I don't know if you have ever looked at the 
Henter Math software, but I thought it did a pretty nice job of letting a blind person interact with a problem in a way that 
provided the ability to sort of emulate how the problem was solved on the blackboard.  I'm not saying this software did what you 
are trying to do as it is more basic, but my reason for mentioning it is that it only had limited success.  It would probably be worth learning more 
about that product, how it was marketed and what successes and failures were experienced.

The problem of converting Nemeth to print and print to Nemeth is also a thorny one.  There is at least one person on this list who 
has some experience with converting Nemeth into other mathematical notation, but I will leave it to that person to 
choose whether or not to comment.  One would have to consider, with younger children especially, how to translate Nemeth into 
print in a relaxed matter that would avoid having a small Nemeth mistake totally mess up the print version.  A mainstream 
instructor is not going to be knowledgeable as to how forgetting a dot might have a major impact on backtranslation.  

I am having some trouble envisioning how your problem solving logic would work.  if there is more than one way to solve a 
given problem and the blind student learns a method that is different than what the class is learning, it may limit his or her 
ability to get information from class activities from that point forward.  I've had to deal with this when trying to assist my kids.  I sometimes simply 
had to step back from helping them because I knew how to solve the problem but it was so different than how their teacher solved it that teaching it 
to them would have added to their confusion.  Is a blind student better off learning to solve a problem in an alternative way 
rather than not at all?  Perhaps, but if the situation is that bleak there are probably some larger issues that affect more than 
math.

You would also need to make some decisions about platform.  In two years, will kids be primarily using iPads?  Standalone note takers would seem to be the ideal platform in many 
ways, but many feel they are on their way out and there are challenges in developing software on those platforms.  What impact does the platform chosen impact the ability to 
leverage work that has already been done, particularly in moving between Nemeth and print, and the ability for a sighted instructor to generate Nemeth reliably?  

Finally, college math students have taken a number of paths to deal with exchanging math documents with instructors.  However, I don't think the approaches being used are 
necessarily approaches that will work for younger children or for those who may be learning math only as a casual requirement.  Still, there is a lot to explore that might give 
you ideas upon which to build.  You might try the BlindMath list to get a sense of what is already being done.  Also, someone mentioned the Braille Blaster project, and one of 
its components is definitely to allow movement between Nemeth and print, but that is also a large project that is trying to do a lot.

>From my perspective, if you can truly do what you have set out to do in a reasonable amount of time in a way that does not require too much extra work for the mainstream math 
instructor, it's probably worth a try.  I'm just a little afraid that you are glossing over some aspects of the problem that will not be so easily solved.  If I had a vote to 
determine what you would do, though, my vote would be for you to research what is already underway and see how your tallent could be used to bring some of the current efforts to 
fruition sooner.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 05:53:08 -0500, Mike Jolls wrote:

>I'll reply to Mike's last reply and add some comments in general.

>Let me expand the thread a bit and say that my question as to whether
>software would be useful was more than just a question.  You see, after I
>spoke with these kids at our chapter meeting, and came up with my idea of
>the teacher/student interaction aspect of the software, I started to
>investigate writing a "math expression solver" engine.  The math expression
>solver is fundamental to the success of such a system (i.e. the ability to
>simplify a sub-part of an overall problem so you can re-write the problem in
>steps in order to show the problem solution to the student).  What I'm
>proposing won't be possible without this engine, so I began working on it.
>I was able to find some advanced computer science texts which laid out how
>simple calculator logic was programmed, and I began to work on such a
>project.  As I said in earlier posts, the project is not easy, but it is
>possible.  The project is definitely in its infancy, but what I have right
>now is a project that ... given an expression such as (3*(5+2)) ... can
>solve that expression.  This is just the very very very beginning.  If any
>of you have had upper level math, you know what I'm talking about.  There
>are variables to deal with, functions, many other topics.  But before I went
>too far, I wanted to see if it was even worthwhile pursuing such a topic.
>After all, if people are so entrenched in the current system that they are
>totally inflexible, well it might not be worth all the effort such a project
>will demand.  And it WILL demand work.  No question there.  But I believe I
>see that this is possible ... after all ... look at Mathematica.  There is a
>package that does many complex mathematical tasks.  So I think that what I'm
>putting forth here is doable.  But it will take a significant amount of
>work.  After all, some people said we'd never go to the moon, yet we did
>with work and effort.

>The point is well made that conversion of Braille to print and back will not
>be easy.  However, assuming that Nemeth Braille is used for the
>representation of mathematical statements, I have to believe there is a way
>to perform these conversions.  From what I've read, Mr. Nemeth was able to
>develop a system by which he could represent any mathematical problem in
>Braille.  We already know that in print you can do that.  We have hundreds
>of years of experience there.  I have to believe again that bridging the gap
>and translating is possible.  The work will likely be difficult.  I have
>seen many complex sets of data represented in computer code over my 35 years
>of professional work, so I think this can be done, but it won't be easy.
>The suggestion to look in the "non-commercial" groups to see what problems
>have already been solved is a good one so I don't reinvent the wheel.

>I can recall many times over the years ... before there was all of this
>accessibility and accomodation ...  back in the 1970's (yes I know the stone
>age) that I had teachers who didn't want to be bothered by my problem of low
>vision.  Even though you told them .. "I need help" ... they just sort of
>had the attitude that you had to make out the best you could, figure things
>out for yourself, and then let your level of achievement fall where it may.
>I think college was the worst because the teachers had their own agendas and
>back then, you didn't have all the awareness you do today.  There were a few
>professors who saw the potential and went the extra mile, but I found that
>more the exception than the rule.  You were basically on your own.  I've
>seen that attitude professionally as well too many times.  In other words,
>sink or swim, but you're on your own to rise to the level you're capable of.
>Some instructors will work with you, read you the problems, etc.  A lot (in
>my experience anyway) won't.  When you can't depend on the teachers to help
>you, you have to be able to do it yourself.  I saw this project as being the
>student's ability to overcome those issues to some extent.  I saw it as the
>ability for the student who wanted to do well to be able to independently
>study the math.  Also, to communicate with the teacher in their language
>(i.e. non-Braille) so that those teachers that weren't really interested in,
>or didn't have the time to learn Braille, wouldn't have to.  The lack of
>interest by the teacher wouldn't kill the students ability to keep up.  That
>way, if the student didn't have access to a Braille instructor or helper for
>a period of time, they could fall back to what I'm proposing and still
>survive.  The student could work the problems, have Braille support if they
>needed it through the software, and then send it back to the teacher in
>print so that the teacher could simply treat the student as any other
>student.  Such a system, I believe would give the student a level of
>independence that would help them succeed.

>I remember when I was in college taking math.  I couldn't see the board.  I
>couldn't see what the teacher was writing.  Back in the 70's, there weren't
>a lot of accessible aids like there are today.  Today I have a telescope
>mounted in a pair of glasses that helps me tremendously deal with reading
>the board.  I can actually sit halfway back in the room and see what's on
>the board.  I sure couldn't do that 40 years ago.  In high school, I zoned
>out because I couldn't see what was going on.  It wasn't until college that
>I realized that I could level the playing field if I read the books on my
>own, took the responsibility upon myself to read the book and do the
>problems, and educate myself so that when I went to class I knew what I
>didn't understand and could ask intelligent questions.  When I did that, I
>started getting A's in math.  I got A's with that approach up through
>Calculus and Diff. Eq.  When I heard that blind students were struggling
>with math, I realized that they needed a method to be able to independently
>study the topics when their classroom experience was falling short so they
>could do what I did.  I was hoping this project could help give them a tool
>they could use to do what I'm talking about.  

>And that's why I posted the question.  Would people see value in such a
>project?  Would it be worth working on?  Even though it has been a lot of
>work just doing what I've done so far, it might be worth it if it could help
>alleviate a student's frustration and help them to succeed.

>Anyway, that's my motivation.  I've said too much.

>Comments welcome.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 4:21 PM
>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Math software

>tami: 
>I am not nearly as sanguine as you are regarding the promise of software to
>facilitate translation of braille math into print unambiguously or provide
>an easy means of rendering math by blind students intelligible to the
>sighted except in simple cases because, whether we wish to admit it or not,
>there is considerable variability in the way math is written in print and
>also because braille, no matter which code is used, has no foolproof means
>of rendering arbitrary math symbols into print. It is easier going the other
>way but judgment is still often required. 
>I am glad the projects you cite are underway but I think it'll be a tougher
>nut to crack than many believe. 

>Mike Freeman
>sent from my iPhone

>On Apr 8, 2013, at 13:55, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:

>> Mike,
>> 
>> Mulling this one over, I tend to agree with you about the importance of
>access to texts and other learning materials, as well as the ability to
>produce homework independently. I see many of the points others have raised
>about the system in which the problems students are facing exist, and we
>need to keep chipping away at those issues, too. But independent access to
>the materials can go a long, long way in getting around negative attitudes
>and failures of the system. Software can go an awfully long way towards
>making that independent access possible!
>> 
>> As for software, there are some really good projects under active
>development for math/science accessibility, including liblouis,
>BrailleBlaster, Infty and others. Some are braille intensive, while others
>focus on audio access. I think there is a place for both, although I
>strongly prefer braille myself.
>> 
>> I see these projects as promising ways to open up math and science to a
>broader range of students and even just us older folks who want to play with
>math cuz that's how we are. It's becoming more and more possible to just
>scan a text and be able to read it in either braille or audio! Or to produce
>mathematic and scientific notation in documents without having to learn
>LaTex and whatever else first. Add tactile graphics, and a blind student has
>a fighting chance to learn and even to be competitive and still have time to
>eat and sleep...
>> 
>> The open source projects also take a big bite out of the cost involved in
>math/science access... That still leaves the cost of the hardware, which is
>not at all cheap. However... Compared to the cost of transcribing and
>embossing a single paper braille text, it can start looking downright cost
>effective!
>> 
>> I'm not aware of anything like the interactive learning components you
>mention being available at the k12 level... Which doesn't mean much, since
>that is off my radar. We do have parents of blind students on the blind math
>list wanting to learn how to assist their children, and I think some
>educators at that level who discuss the issues there. I find it interesting
>but honestly haven't paid huge attention to the ins and outs.
>> 
>> Will software solve the problems with the school system? Nope! But if
>students can get their hands on access to the learning materials and be able
>to produce homework without having to rely on the system, then that's a help
>for those who wish to learn and compete -- even excel -- anyway.
>> 
>> Will software change the negative attitudes behind the problems with the
>education system? No, but those students who compete and excel will
>eventually become convincing. When I was that young, everyone knew women
>weren't fit for math or the sciences, after all. Now? Why wouldn't a woman
>be good at that? Why would anyone have thought otherwise? So as blind
>students and blind professionals become more competitive, it will become
>obvious that a blind person can be competitive. Not tomorrow, but in time.
>> 
>> Of course, we're also facing overall cultural attitudes towards education
>in general and expecially math and science. Layer that over the additional
>attitudes towards blindness and the access issues that blind students face,
>and I think that anything at all that can enable any young person to learn
>in those fields is gold. Yes, we need to keep fighting on all fronts for the
>education system to work to educate and to do what is needed to educate
>blind students. Meanwhile, a lot of students are on their own -- or their
>parents are. If they don't have to wait on the system to provide the basic
>learning materials, that's one less way they can be held up by it.
>> 
>> And, yes, software can bridge that barrier.
>> 
>> Tami
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 04/08/2013 09:09 AM, majolls at cox.net wrote:
>>> I see I'm getting a LOT of push-back on this topic.  My whole thrust to
>this topic was to think about putting the power in the student's hand to the
>extent possible, rather than making the student wait on others to assist.
>>> 
>>> I'm not up on the rules and regs regarding what the schools are supposed
>to do by law (i..e provide large print books, Braille resources).  But that
>much I figured ... yes accomodations have to be made.  But what does a
>student do if they have to wait for these resources?  They could fall
>behind.  And what happens if a student does Braille, but the teacher doesn't
>... and there aren't enough trained Braille instructors in a district to go
>around?  I've heard that's a problem because districts are trying to cut
>costs and eliminate specialized schools that teach blind students.  So if
>that's the case, who knows how many qualified teachers for the blind there
>will be?  Maybe not enough?  I don't know.
>>> 
>>> The software I was thinking about would give the student and teacher
>tools to communicate ... without the teacher having to know Braille (if it
>was a requirement for the student).  The student could do the assignments,
>use a Braille device if needed, then have the software translate back to
>regular text for the teacher.  The Braille instructor wouldn't be obsolete,
>but if there ever was a time where one was unavailable, the student could
>perhaps still do the work and the software could back-translate the work to
>the form the regular teacher could handle if they didn't know Braille (which
>I have heard is case sometimes).
>>> 
>>> The student could also get help from the software to work through the
>problems.  So if they didn't know how to solve a problem, having the
>"solution solver" would be helpful so they could ... hopefully ...
>independently do the homework.  And this software could ... if designed
>correctly .. allow the teacher to design tests, quizzes, etc.  The teacher
>simply composes, saves, and the student accesses the material on his or her
>own terms.  Again, I don't see the braille instructor being replaced ... but
>the software could help if one wasn't availalbe at the moment.
>>> 
>>> I honestly don't see the big beef about this topic.  Isn't the whole
>thrust of the NFB to encourage students to excel in the STEM curriculum?
>Wouldn't it be a good thing to provide them with tools that allow them to
>succeed independently?  I'm not suggesting that the accomodations that are
>in place be changed.  I'm just saying ... consider a tool that would give
>the student some help.  Maybe I'm just wet, but I get a bit excited when I
>find a way that I can do something I want to do and I don't have to wait on
>someone else or be dependent because of my vision.  I thought this idea
>might help a student work on their own and maybe open this subject to them
>just a bit.
>>> 
>>> Maybe I'm just bucking a system that is inflexible and sees such a
>product as a threat to their existence.  Maybe people really don't want to
>change the status quo.
>>> 
>>> Comments welcome.
>>> ---- "Hyde wrote:
>>>> This is an IEP issue. It also is a good opportunity for self-advocacy.
>It is required that the text be accessible. Parents and student need to talk
>to the TVI and the school. Taking the book home is an IEP issue IBID. As
>much as some schools and some teachers think that software is the solution,
>it isn't. You can contact me off list, or you can get help from teachers on
>the teachers and educators' lists.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole
>Torcolini
>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 4:39 PM
>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Math software
>>>> 
>>>> My responses written inline.
>>>> 
>>>> I was at our NFB chapter meeting the other night and some of the kids I
>was chatting with were saying how difficult it is to do math.
>>>> 
>>>> I could relate since I remember sitting in class when I had zero
>technology and couldn't read the board ... you sort of just zone out.
>>>> 
>>>> Someone needs to tell the teacher that he/she needs to read what is on
>the board. If that is not enough, then the students should be allowed to
>have a notetaker. I did ot have a notetaker in high school, but I did in
>several of my college classes, particularly the math/science ones.
>>>> 
>>>> They told me that some of the schools (high school I believe) don't let
>you take the book home.  And since they can't see what's going on in the
>class and can't take the book home, they struggle terribly.
>>>> 
>>>> That's ridiculous. Even if that is what the rules are, sometimes
>acceptions can be made. It's called accommodations.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, some were saying even if they could take the book, they couldn't
>read it, and some said their parents didn't know enough math to help them.
>>>> Bottom line, math was a huge struggle for these kids.
>>>> 
>>>>  Why aren't TVIs working with these students to help them find a method
>of reading/writing math that works for them?
>>>> 
>>>> I haven't done any searching, but I was wondering if there are software
>solutions out there that could allow some of the following:
>>>> 
>>>> I agree that it is a good thought, but I am not sure that software is
>necessarily the solution, or, if it is, that it is the only thing that needs
>to be done.
>>>> 
>>>> 1. The textbook is in accessible format so that a student can access it
>at home or at school with Jaws/Braille.
>>>> 
>>>> 2. Allows the teacher to compose lessons - when the student can't read
>the book and doesn't have access to an electronic version of the book.
>>>> 
>>>> 3. Allows teacher (as part of composition) to enter the problems to be
>solved in a "problem set".
>>>> 
>>>> 4. Teacher should be able to save to disk, web, etc
>>>> 
>>>> 4. Allows students to access the lessons from disk/web and problems
>composed by the teacher.
>>>> 
>>>> 5. If student can't solve the problem presented, have an automated
>"solution solver" that will take student step by step through the solution.
>>>> 
>>>> Student should be able to see a line by line solution so they can see
>the steps necessary to solve the problem.
>>>> 
>>>> 6. Allow student to work the problems and have computer check the
>solution and tell student when right or wrong.
>>>> 
>>>> 7. If homework, allow student to compose solution and save to disk or
>upload to web.
>>>> 
>>>> 8. Allow teacher to access students work for grading.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Does anybody know if something like this is available?  Granted, this
>would NOT be trivial software to write, but having something like this would
>allow the students to deal with complex math such as elementary algebra,
>intermediate algebra, trig, etc, and get it in a format they can deal with.
>>>> I think I would have found this useful back in the stone age when I was
>in high school.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Anybody know of anything?  Or, would you reply.... "you're a software
>guy, write it!".
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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