[nfbcs] Math software

Tue Apr 9 16:07:41 UTC 2013

Yes, I'm well aware that people have likely already been working on projects
to solve the problems I stated in my original post.

Incidentally, when I stated that I had written an "engine" to solve a
problem such as 3*(2+5) ... I didn't mean to say that that's the only
problem that my little engine could solve.  If I wrote the code the way I
learned in my undergraduate degree, then yes, that's all it would be able to
solve.  And using that type of programming, you'd have to write a different
program each time you wanted to solve a different problem.  The engine I
wrote can take a mathematical expression as an argument.  Then using a stack
data structure, the engine parses the input, considers operator precedence,
and solves the problem.  In other words, it can solve any algebraic
expression passed to it.  Which, I'm sure, any other person working on
something like this would take a similar approach.  Like I said, it's
calculator logic ... and that logic has been around for years ... but this
is the first time I've come across it.  Thank God for advanced texts.  If
nothing else, this has been challenging to use the advanced concepts to do
something interesting, and maybe, perhaps, helpful.  We'll have to see about
that.

One thing's for sure.  I'm going to have to keep reading these advanced
texts.  Knowledge is key to being able to do advanced, and interesting
things.  The problem is knowing what books to read.  There are a ton out
there.

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.  I wanted some input, and you gave it
to me.  And I'll make sure to check out the math discussion on the nfb.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 9:43 AM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Math software

My opinion is that you're asking your questions in the wrong place. 
There is the blind math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>. I think you'd get much better answers there.

I went back and reread your original post and I noticed you said you hadn't
done any reaserch yet. That would almost certainly be a good thing to do. I
know there is a product written by blind mathematicians that is for getting
documents from Word for example into braille. See
http://www.duxburysystems.com/megadots.asp. I only know about that because
tI have been told one of the founders got her degree in math from the
University of Wisconsin where I now work. But there might be other tools
that I've never heard of.

It seems to me that the existence of the megadots system proves you're not
crazy. It also looks like that megadots program is way out of date. 
The page says you can run it in 32 bit Windows 7  but it does not work for
64 bit versions of Windows. That is an obvious sign that the product needs
to be updated.  But it could be that there is a competing product that being
actively maintained and that's why megadots is not.

On 04/08/2013 11:09 AM, majolls at cox.net wrote:
> I see I'm getting a LOT of push-back on this topic.  My whole thrust to
this topic was to think about putting the power in the student's hand to the
extent possible, rather than making the student wait on others to assist.
>
> I'm not up on the rules and regs regarding what the schools are supposed
to do by law (i..e provide large print books, Braille resources).  But that
much I figured ... yes accomodations have to be made.  But what does a
student do if they have to wait for these resources?  They could fall
behind.  And what happens if a student does Braille, but the teacher doesn't
... and there aren't enough trained Braille instructors in a district to go
around?  I've heard that's a problem because districts are trying to cut
costs and eliminate specialized schools that teach blind students.  So if
that's the case, who knows how many qualified teachers for the blind there
will be?  Maybe not enough?  I don't know.
>
> The software I was thinking about would give the student and teacher tools
to communicate ... without the teacher having to know Braille (if it was a
requirement for the student).  The student could do the assignments, use a
Braille device if needed, then have the software translate back to regular
text for the teacher.  The Braille instructor wouldn't be obsolete, but if
there ever was a time where one was unavailable, the student could perhaps
still do the work and the software could back-translate the work to the form
the regular teacher could handle if they didn't know Braille (which I have
heard is case sometimes).
>
> The student could also get help from the software to work through the
problems.  So if they didn't know how to solve a problem, having the
"solution solver" would be helpful so they could ... hopefully ...
independently do the homework.  And this software could ... if designed
correctly .. allow the teacher to design tests, quizzes, etc.  The teacher
simply composes, saves, and the student accesses the material on his or her
own terms.  Again, I don't see the braille instructor being replaced ... but
the software could help if one wasn't availalbe at the moment.
>
> I honestly don't see the big beef about this topic.  Isn't the whole
thrust of the NFB to encourage students to excel in the STEM curriculum?
Wouldn't it be a good thing to provide them with tools that allow them to
succeed independently?  I'm not suggesting that the accomodations that are
in place be changed.  I'm just saying ... consider a tool that would give
the student some help.  Maybe I'm just wet, but I get a bit excited when I
find a way that I can do something I want to do and I don't have to wait on
someone else or be dependent because of my vision.  I thought this idea
might help a student work on their own and maybe open this subject to them
just a bit.
>
> Maybe I'm just bucking a system that is inflexible and sees such a product
as a threat to their existence.  Maybe people really don't want to change
the status quo.
>
> Comments welcome.
> ---- "Hyde wrote:
>> This is an IEP issue. It also is a good opportunity for self-advocacy. It
is required that the text be accessible. Parents and student need to talk to
the TVI and the school. Taking the book home is an IEP issue IBID. As much
as some schools and some teachers think that software is the solution, it
isn't. You can contact me off list, or you can get help from teachers on the
teachers and educators' lists.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole 
>> Torcolini
>> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 4:39 PM
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Math software
>>
>> My responses written inline.
>>
>> I was at our NFB chapter meeting the other night and some of the kids I
was chatting with were saying how difficult it is to do math.
>>
>> I could relate since I remember sitting in class when I had zero
technology and couldn't read the board ... you sort of just zone out.
>>
>> Someone needs to tell the teacher that he/she needs to read what is on
the board. If that is not enough, then the students should be allowed to
have a notetaker. I did ot have a notetaker in high school, but I did in
several of my college classes, particularly the math/science ones.
>>
>> They told me that some of the schools (high school I believe) don't let
you take the book home.  And since they can't see what's going on in the
class and can't take the book home, they struggle terribly.
>>
>> That's ridiculous. Even if that is what the rules are, sometimes
acceptions can be made. It's called accommodations.
>>
>> Also, some were saying even if they could take the book, they couldn't
read it, and some said their parents didn't know enough math to help them.
>> Bottom line, math was a huge struggle for these kids.
>>
>>   Why aren't TVIs working with these students to help them find a method
of reading/writing math that works for them?
>>
>> I haven't done any searching, but I was wondering if there are software
solutions out there that could allow some of the following:
>>
>> I agree that it is a good thought, but I am not sure that software is
necessarily the solution, or, if it is, that it is the only thing that needs
to be done.
>>
>> 1. The textbook is in accessible format so that a student can access it
at home or at school with Jaws/Braille.
>>
>> 2. Allows the teacher to compose lessons - when the student can't read
the book and doesn't have access to an electronic version of the book.
>>
>> 3. Allows teacher (as part of composition) to enter the problems to be
solved in a "problem set".
>>
>> 4. Teacher should be able to save to disk, web, etc
>>
>> 4. Allows students to access the lessons from disk/web and problems
composed by the teacher.
>>
>> 5. If student can't solve the problem presented, have an automated
"solution solver" that will take student step by step through the solution.
>>
>> Student should be able to see a line by line solution so they can see the
steps necessary to solve the problem.
>>
>> 6. Allow student to work the problems and have computer check the
solution and tell student when right or wrong.
>>
>> 7. If homework, allow student to compose solution and save to disk or
upload to web.
>>
>> 8. Allow teacher to access students work for grading.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anybody know if something like this is available?  Granted, this
would NOT be trivial software to write, but having something like this would
allow the students to deal with complex math such as elementary algebra,
intermediate algebra, trig, etc, and get it in a format they can deal with.
>> I think I would have found this useful back in the stone age when I was
in high school.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anybody know of anything?  Or, would you reply.... "you're a software
guy, write it!".
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
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