[nfbcs] Math software

[majolls at cox.net]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Regarding asking for money, I have a lot farther to go in proving the concepts before I ever put a proposal out there and ask for money.  You are absolutely right ... requirements and functional assessments need to be solidified before I say anything else ... before I ask for money.  My initial goal in writing this thread was to see if it was a good idea, if it had already been solved ... or whether I should just drop it and move on.  It sounds like it's something that hasn't been done and could be beneficial to blind students.  So now the work really has to begin.

One thing I could ask money for is a Braille display, but I'm not even going to do that.  I don't want to ask for grant money until I know absolutely that I can accomplish this task, and how I'm going to do it.   I use the Braille display as an example of what I could request money for since it's expensive and a grant could help get that tool.  But what if I got the display and then didn't follow through?  No.  I'm not going there.  Besides, the display is something I wanted before now.  It's something I'd use in my daily life, and I've got some extra cash.  So I'll just get it and then I'll have it when I need it.

So now the quiet time begins.  As I said, a lot of work, research, etc... Hopefully I can make something come out of this.  Wish me luck.


---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote: 
> I'm glad to hear you say these things, mike. I actually began several 
> messages saying esssentially what you say below but each time decided 
> against sending them. I didn't want to sound negative. But I do think 
> it's important to be realistic. Personally, as President of the 
> International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists, I've seen 
> a particular pattern far too many times. Someone gets very excited, 
> begins a project, and goes great gonzo on it for a few weeks or months. 
> Then when the enthusiasm fades, so does the project. On the other hand, 
> almost all open source projects start with one passionate person.
> 
> I also think you should clarify your idea and plans a little. I don't 
> think you can develop a system  until you've clearly defined the problem 
> and your solution. And that's going to take some research. You're going 
> to reinvent the wheel if you don't do this. Or you might   solve a 
> problem that doesn't need to be solved.
> 
> But if I understand your idea and from what little research I've done, 
> it seems to me you have identified a need.  I'll admit I don't know too 
> much about this stuff but if your basic idea is to make it possible for 
> a math student to take anything an instructor throws at her and turn it 
> into braille, that seems valuable to me. The ADA not withstanding, that 
> seems like a good thing. In fact, it seems odd that anyone in the NFB 
> would find anything objectionable in that. It seems to me that the NFB 
> should be the most enthusiastic group of all toward a project like that.
> 
> Furthermore, I'd say the existance of the megadots software and the fact 
> that it's apparently so out of date is confirmation of the value of your 
> idea.  From what I can gather of your idea, it sounds a lot like what 
> megadots does except that megadots isn't open source and its way out of 
> date. So I'm all for it. In fact, if there is anything we at the 
> International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists can do to 
> help. let me know. I can offer you web resources if that's any help. I 
> don't knwo what else we can do but if you have any ideas, let me know.
> 
> One more thing... There is money out there for projects like this. The 
> Open Software Foundation and Google have grant programs. Those are just 
> two sources of grants. There are many more. I personally have never 
> applied for one of these grants but I've worked with people through 
> IAVIT on getting them. So you might consider applying for grant money if 
> that would be helpful.
> 
> On 04/09/2013 04:42 PM, Mike Jolls wrote:
> > I'm not going to argue one bit with what you have said.  I have taken on a
> > couple of mammoth projects in past years ... not realizing the enormity of
> > the project.  One project I took on was a "code generator".  I wanted to be
> > able to design application forms, and then have the system  generate the
> > code necessary to make the forms work, and generate code that tied the menus
> > and windows to "shell programs" that the system would generate and call, and
> > that the programmer could enhance with his business logic.  I was trying to
> > do this so that where I work, we could prototype our applications faster.  I
> > worked on it for four years and then Microsoft came out with Visual Basic
> > and Visual C++.  I didn't realize how many problems I'd have to solve when I
> > started, but I found out that to make it easy to use, a LOT had to be
> > written ... more than I realized.  That project came to a dead stop once the
> > Microsoft products came out.  Microsoft could put 50 people on a project
> > whereas I was just one person trying to do it all.
> >
> > As a result of that particular project, I coined the phrase ... "easy is
> > hard".  That meant ... "if it's easy on you the user, it's REALLY hard on
> > me.  To make a software package really usable and intuitive, there is a LOT
> > of work that the programmer has to do.  So I'm not going into this with my
> > eyes closed.  It is a big undertaking to be certain.  And you're right.
> > It's not just the math ... which is by itself a lot of work.  It's also the
> > Nemeth coding too.  And as I said, it might be too big.  But I do appreciate
> > your thoughts.  I think they are valid.
> >
> > Thanks for all your replies.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:25 PM
> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Math software
> >
> > Currently, there are challenges to be overcome with all approaches to
> > educating blind children, particularly in math.  I, for one, would not want
> > to discourage you from looking at alternative ways of solving the problem.
> > On the other hand, if you have the tallent to come up with a solution, I
> > don't want to see such a tallent wasted, either, if it seems there might be
> > roadblocks that are hard to circumvent.  My first reaction to what you have
> > written is that this is really a huge project,and I also feel that
> > expressing the goal is far easier than meeting that goal.  Some of what you
> > are detecting in responses is skepticism that what you are proposing can be
> > achieved in a way that will be accepted by those who must accept it.  I
> > don't know if you have ever looked at the Henter Math software, but I
> > thought it did a pretty nice job of letting a blind person interact with a
> > problem in a way that provided the ability to sort of emulate how the
> > problem was solved on the blackboard.  I'm not saying this software did what
> > you are trying to do as it is more basic, but my reason for mentioning it is
> > that it only had limited success.  It would probably be worth learning more
> > about that product, how it was marketed and what successes and failures were
> > experienced.
> >
> > The problem of converting Nemeth to print and print to Nemeth is also a
> > thorny one.  There is at least one person on this list who has some
> > experience with converting Nemeth into other mathematical notation, but I
> > will leave it to that person to choose whether or not to comment.  One would
> > have to consider, with younger children especially, how to translate Nemeth
> > into print in a relaxed matter that would avoid having a small Nemeth
> > mistake totally mess up the print version.  A mainstream instructor is not
> > going to be knowledgeable as to how forgetting a dot might have a major
> > impact on backtranslation.
> >
> > I am having some trouble envisioning how your problem solving logic would
> > work.  if there is more than one way to solve a given problem and the blind
> > student learns a method that is different than what the class is learning,
> > it may limit his or her ability to get information from class activities
> > from that point forward.  I've had to deal with this when trying to assist
> > my kids.  I sometimes simply had to step back from helping them because I
> > knew how to solve the problem but it was so different than how their teacher
> > solved it that teaching it to them would have added to their confusion.  Is
> > a blind student better off learning to solve a problem in an alternative way
> > rather than not at all?  Perhaps, but if the situation is that bleak there
> > are probably some larger issues that affect more than math.
> >
> > You would also need to make some decisions about platform.  In two years,
> > will kids be primarily using iPads?  Standalone note takers would seem to be
> > the ideal platform in many ways, but many feel they are on their way out and
> > there are challenges in developing software on those platforms.  What impact
> > does the platform chosen impact the ability to leverage work that has
> > already been done, particularly in moving between Nemeth and print, and the
> > ability for a sighted instructor to generate Nemeth reliably?
> >
> > Finally, college math students have taken a number of paths to deal with
> > exchanging math documents with instructors.  However, I don't think the
> > approaches being used are necessarily approaches that will work for younger
> > children or for those who may be learning math only as a casual requirement.
> > Still, there is a lot to explore that might give you ideas upon which to
> > build.  You might try the BlindMath list to get a sense of what is already
> > being done.  Also, someone mentioned the Braille Blaster project, and one of
> > its components is definitely to allow movement between Nemeth and print, but
> > that is also a large project that is trying to do a lot.
> >
> >  From my perspective, if you can truly do what you have set out to do in a
> > reasonable amount of time in a way that does not require too much extra work
> > for the mainstream math instructor, it's probably worth a try.  I'm just a
> > little afraid that you are glossing over some aspects of the problem that
> > will not be so easily solved.  If I had a vote to determine what you would
> > do, though, my vote would be for you to research what is already underway
> > and see how your tallent could be used to bring some of the current efforts
> > to fruition sooner.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Steve Jacobson
> >
> > On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 05:53:08 -0500, Mike Jolls wrote:
> >
> >> I'll reply to Mike's last reply and add some comments in general.
> >
> >> Let me expand the thread a bit and say that my question as to whether
> >> software would be useful was more than just a question.  You see, after
> >> I spoke with these kids at our chapter meeting, and came up with my
> >> idea of the teacher/student interaction aspect of the software, I
> >> started to investigate writing a "math expression solver" engine.  The
> >> math expression solver is fundamental to the success of such a system
> >> (i.e. the ability to simplify a sub-part of an overall problem so you
> >> can re-write the problem in steps in order to show the problem solution
> >> to the student).  What I'm proposing won't be possible without this engine,
> > so I began working on it.
> >> I was able to find some advanced computer science texts which laid out
> >> how simple calculator logic was programmed, and I began to work on such
> >> a project.  As I said in earlier posts, the project is not easy, but it
> >> is possible.  The project is definitely in its infancy, but what I have
> >> right now is a project that ... given an expression such as (3*(5+2))
> >> ... can solve that expression.  This is just the very very very
> >> beginning.  If any of you have had upper level math, you know what I'm
> >> talking about.  There are variables to deal with, functions, many other
> >> topics.  But before I went too far, I wanted to see if it was even
> > worthwhile pursuing such a topic.
> >> After all, if people are so entrenched in the current system that they
> >> are totally inflexible, well it might not be worth all the effort such
> >> a project will demand.  And it WILL demand work.  No question there.
> >> But I believe I see that this is possible ... after all ... look at
> >> Mathematica.  There is a package that does many complex mathematical
> >> tasks.  So I think that what I'm putting forth here is doable.  But it
> >> will take a significant amount of work.  After all, some people said
> >> we'd never go to the moon, yet we did with work and effort.
> >
> >> The point is well made that conversion of Braille to print and back
> >> will not be easy.  However, assuming that Nemeth Braille is used for
> >> the representation of mathematical statements, I have to believe there
> >> is a way to perform these conversions.  From what I've read, Mr. Nemeth
> >> was able to develop a system by which he could represent any
> >> mathematical problem in Braille.  We already know that in print you can
> >> do that.  We have hundreds of years of experience there.  I have to
> >> believe again that bridging the gap and translating is possible.  The
> >> work will likely be difficult.  I have seen many complex sets of data
> >> represented in computer code over my 35 years of professional work, so I
> > think this can be done, but it won't be easy.
> >> The suggestion to look in the "non-commercial" groups to see what
> >> problems have already been solved is a good one so I don't reinvent the
> > wheel.
> >
> >> I can recall many times over the years ... before there was all of this
> >> accessibility and accomodation ...  back in the 1970's (yes I know the
> >> stone
> >> age) that I had teachers who didn't want to be bothered by my problem
> >> of low vision.  Even though you told them .. "I need help" ... they
> >> just sort of had the attitude that you had to make out the best you
> >> could, figure things out for yourself, and then let your level of
> > achievement fall where it may.
> >> I think college was the worst because the teachers had their own
> >> agendas and back then, you didn't have all the awareness you do today.
> >> There were a few professors who saw the potential and went the extra
> >> mile, but I found that more the exception than the rule.  You were
> >> basically on your own.  I've seen that attitude professionally as well
> >> too many times.  In other words, sink or swim, but you're on your own to
> > rise to the level you're capable of.
> >> Some instructors will work with you, read you the problems, etc.  A lot
> >> (in my experience anyway) won't.  When you can't depend on the teachers
> >> to help you, you have to be able to do it yourself.  I saw this project
> >> as being the student's ability to overcome those issues to some extent.
> >> I saw it as the ability for the student who wanted to do well to be
> >> able to independently study the math.  Also, to communicate with the
> >> teacher in their language (i.e. non-Braille) so that those teachers
> >> that weren't really interested in, or didn't have the time to learn
> >> Braille, wouldn't have to.  The lack of interest by the teacher
> >> wouldn't kill the students ability to keep up.  That way, if the
> >> student didn't have access to a Braille instructor or helper for a
> >> period of time, they could fall back to what I'm proposing and still
> >> survive.  The student could work the problems, have Braille support if
> >> they needed it through the software, and then send it back to the
> >> teacher in print so that the teacher could simply treat the student as
> >> any other student.  Such a system, I believe would give the student a level
> > of independence that would help them succeed.
> >
> >> I remember when I was in college taking math.  I couldn't see the
> >> board.  I couldn't see what the teacher was writing.  Back in the 70's,
> >> there weren't a lot of accessible aids like there are today.  Today I
> >> have a telescope mounted in a pair of glasses that helps me
> >> tremendously deal with reading the board.  I can actually sit halfway
> >> back in the room and see what's on the board.  I sure couldn't do that
> >> 40 years ago.  In high school, I zoned out because I couldn't see what
> >> was going on.  It wasn't until college that I realized that I could
> >> level the playing field if I read the books on my own, took the
> >> responsibility upon myself to read the book and do the problems, and
> >> educate myself so that when I went to class I knew what I didn't
> >> understand and could ask intelligent questions.  When I did that, I
> >> started getting A's in math.  I got A's with that approach up through
> >> Calculus and Diff. Eq.  When I heard that blind students were
> >> struggling with math, I realized that they needed a method to be able
> >> to independently study the topics when their classroom experience was
> >> falling short so they could do what I did.  I was hoping this project could
> > help give them a tool they could use to do what I'm talking about.
> >
> >> And that's why I posted the question.  Would people see value in such a
> >> project?  Would it be worth working on?  Even though it has been a lot
> >> of work just doing what I've done so far, it might be worth it if it
> >> could help alleviate a student's frustration and help them to succeed.
> >
> >> Anyway, that's my motivation.  I've said too much.
> >
> >> Comments welcome.
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> >> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 4:21 PM
> >> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Math software
> >
> >> tami:
> >> I am not nearly as sanguine as you are regarding the promise of
> >> software to facilitate translation of braille math into print
> >> unambiguously or provide an easy means of rendering math by blind
> >> students intelligible to the sighted except in simple cases because,
> >> whether we wish to admit it or not, there is considerable variability
> >> in the way math is written in print and also because braille, no matter
> >> which code is used, has no foolproof means of rendering arbitrary math
> >> symbols into print. It is easier going the other way but judgment is still
> > often required.
> >> I am glad the projects you cite are underway but I think it'll be a
> >> tougher nut to crack than many believe.
> >
> >> Mike Freeman
> >> sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Apr 8, 2013, at 13:55, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> Mulling this one over, I tend to agree with you about the importance
> >>> of
> >> access to texts and other learning materials, as well as the ability to
> >> produce homework independently. I see many of the points others have
> >> raised about the system in which the problems students are facing
> >> exist, and we need to keep chipping away at those issues, too. But
> >> independent access to the materials can go a long, long way in getting
> >> around negative attitudes and failures of the system. Software can go
> >> an awfully long way towards making that independent access possible!
> >>>
> >>> As for software, there are some really good projects under active
> >> development for math/science accessibility, including liblouis,
> >> BrailleBlaster, Infty and others. Some are braille intensive, while
> >> others focus on audio access. I think there is a place for both,
> >> although I strongly prefer braille myself.
> >>>
> >>> I see these projects as promising ways to open up math and science to
> >>> a
> >> broader range of students and even just us older folks who want to play
> >> with math cuz that's how we are. It's becoming more and more possible
> >> to just scan a text and be able to read it in either braille or audio!
> >> Or to produce mathematic and scientific notation in documents without
> >> having to learn LaTex and whatever else first. Add tactile graphics,
> >> and a blind student has a fighting chance to learn and even to be
> >> competitive and still have time to eat and sleep...
> >>>
> >>> The open source projects also take a big bite out of the cost
> >>> involved in
> >> math/science access... That still leaves the cost of the hardware,
> >> which is not at all cheap. However... Compared to the cost of
> >> transcribing and embossing a single paper braille text, it can start
> >> looking downright cost effective!
> >>>
> >>> I'm not aware of anything like the interactive learning components
> >>> you
> >> mention being available at the k12 level... Which doesn't mean much,
> >> since that is off my radar. We do have parents of blind students on the
> >> blind math list wanting to learn how to assist their children, and I
> >> think some educators at that level who discuss the issues there. I find
> >> it interesting but honestly haven't paid huge attention to the ins and
> > outs.
> >>>
> >>> Will software solve the problems with the school system? Nope! But if
> >> students can get their hands on access to the learning materials and be
> >> able to produce homework without having to rely on the system, then
> >> that's a help for those who wish to learn and compete -- even excel --
> > anyway.
> >>>
> >>> Will software change the negative attitudes behind the problems with
> >>> the
> >> education system? No, but those students who compete and excel will
> >> eventually become convincing. When I was that young, everyone knew
> >> women weren't fit for math or the sciences, after all. Now? Why
> >> wouldn't a woman be good at that? Why would anyone have thought
> >> otherwise? So as blind students and blind professionals become more
> >> competitive, it will become obvious that a blind person can be competitive.
> > Not tomorrow, but in time.
> >>>
> >>> Of course, we're also facing overall cultural attitudes towards
> >>> education
> >> in general and expecially math and science. Layer that over the
> >> additional attitudes towards blindness and the access issues that blind
> >> students face, and I think that anything at all that can enable any
> >> young person to learn in those fields is gold. Yes, we need to keep
> >> fighting on all fronts for the education system to work to educate and
> >> to do what is needed to educate blind students. Meanwhile, a lot of
> >> students are on their own -- or their parents are. If they don't have
> >> to wait on the system to provide the basic learning materials, that's one
> > less way they can be held up by it.
> >>>
> >>> And, yes, software can bridge that barrier.
> >>>
> >>> Tami
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 04/08/2013 09:09 AM, majolls at cox.net wrote:
> >>>> I see I'm getting a LOT of push-back on this topic.  My whole thrust
> >>>> to
> >> this topic was to think about putting the power in the student's hand
> >> to the extent possible, rather than making the student wait on others to
> > assist.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not up on the rules and regs regarding what the schools are
> >>>> supposed
> >> to do by law (i..e provide large print books, Braille resources).  But
> >> that much I figured ... yes accomodations have to be made.  But what
> >> does a student do if they have to wait for these resources?  They could
> >> fall behind.  And what happens if a student does Braille, but the
> >> teacher doesn't ... and there aren't enough trained Braille instructors
> >> in a district to go around?  I've heard that's a problem because
> >> districts are trying to cut costs and eliminate specialized schools
> >> that teach blind students.  So if that's the case, who knows how many
> >> qualified teachers for the blind there will be?  Maybe not enough?  I don't
> > know.
> >>>>
> >>>> The software I was thinking about would give the student and teacher
> >> tools to communicate ... without the teacher having to know Braille (if
> >> it was a requirement for the student).  The student could do the
> >> assignments, use a Braille device if needed, then have the software
> >> translate back to regular text for the teacher.  The Braille instructor
> >> wouldn't be obsolete, but if there ever was a time where one was
> >> unavailable, the student could perhaps still do the work and the
> >> software could back-translate the work to the form the regular teacher
> >> could handle if they didn't know Braille (which I have heard is case
> > sometimes).
> >>>>
> >>>> The student could also get help from the software to work through
> >>>> the
> >> problems.  So if they didn't know how to solve a problem, having the
> >> "solution solver" would be helpful so they could ... hopefully ...
> >> independently do the homework.  And this software could ... if designed
> >> correctly .. allow the teacher to design tests, quizzes, etc.  The
> >> teacher simply composes, saves, and the student accesses the material
> >> on his or her own terms.  Again, I don't see the braille instructor
> >> being replaced ... but the software could help if one wasn't availalbe at
> > the moment.
> >>>>
> >>>> I honestly don't see the big beef about this topic.  Isn't the whole
> >> thrust of the NFB to encourage students to excel in the STEM curriculum?
> >> Wouldn't it be a good thing to provide them with tools that allow them
> >> to succeed independently?  I'm not suggesting that the accomodations
> >> that are in place be changed.  I'm just saying ... consider a tool that
> >> would give the student some help.  Maybe I'm just wet, but I get a bit
> >> excited when I find a way that I can do something I want to do and I
> >> don't have to wait on someone else or be dependent because of my
> >> vision.  I thought this idea might help a student work on their own and
> >> maybe open this subject to them just a bit.
> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe I'm just bucking a system that is inflexible and sees such a
> >> product as a threat to their existence.  Maybe people really don't want
> >> to change the status quo.
> >>>>
> >>>> Comments welcome.
> >>>> ---- "Hyde wrote:
> >>>>> This is an IEP issue. It also is a good opportunity for self-advocacy.
> >> It is required that the text be accessible. Parents and student need to
> >> talk to the TVI and the school. Taking the book home is an IEP issue
> >> IBID. As much as some schools and some teachers think that software is
> >> the solution, it isn't. You can contact me off list, or you can get
> >> help from teachers on the teachers and educators' lists.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole
> >> Torcolini
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 4:39 PM
> >>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Math software
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My responses written inline.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was at our NFB chapter meeting the other night and some of the
> >>>>> kids I
> >> was chatting with were saying how difficult it is to do math.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I could relate since I remember sitting in class when I had zero
> >> technology and couldn't read the board ... you sort of just zone out.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Someone needs to tell the teacher that he/she needs to read what is
> >>>>> on
> >> the board. If that is not enough, then the students should be allowed
> >> to have a notetaker. I did ot have a notetaker in high school, but I
> >> did in several of my college classes, particularly the math/science ones.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> They told me that some of the schools (high school I believe) don't
> >>>>> let
> >> you take the book home.  And since they can't see what's going on in
> >> the class and can't take the book home, they struggle terribly.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's ridiculous. Even if that is what the rules are, sometimes
> >> acceptions can be made. It's called accommodations.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also, some were saying even if they could take the book, they
> >>>>> couldn't
> >> read it, and some said their parents didn't know enough math to help them.
> >>>>> Bottom line, math was a huge struggle for these kids.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   Why aren't TVIs working with these students to help them find a
> >>>>> method
> >> of reading/writing math that works for them?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I haven't done any searching, but I was wondering if there are
> >>>>> software
> >> solutions out there that could allow some of the following:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I agree that it is a good thought, but I am not sure that software
> >>>>> is
> >> necessarily the solution, or, if it is, that it is the only thing that
> >> needs to be done.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. The textbook is in accessible format so that a student can
> >>>>> access it
> >> at home or at school with Jaws/Braille.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. Allows the teacher to compose lessons - when the student can't
> >>>>> read
> >> the book and doesn't have access to an electronic version of the book.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. Allows teacher (as part of composition) to enter the problems to
> >>>>> be
> >> solved in a "problem set".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4. Teacher should be able to save to disk, web, etc
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4. Allows students to access the lessons from disk/web and problems
> >> composed by the teacher.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 5. If student can't solve the problem presented, have an automated
> >> "solution solver" that will take student step by step through the solution.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Student should be able to see a line by line solution so they can
> >>>>> see
> >> the steps necessary to solve the problem.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 6. Allow student to work the problems and have computer check the
> >> solution and tell student when right or wrong.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 7. If homework, allow student to compose solution and save to disk
> >>>>> or
> >> upload to web.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 8. Allow teacher to access students work for grading.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Does anybody know if something like this is available?  Granted,
> >>>>> this
> >> would NOT be trivial software to write, but having something like this
> >> would allow the students to deal with complex math such as elementary
> >> algebra, intermediate algebra, trig, etc, and get it in a format they can
> > deal with.
> >>>>> I think I would have found this useful back in the stone age when I
> >>>>> was
> >> in high school.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Anybody know of anything?  Or, would you reply.... "you're a
> >>>>> software
> >> guy, write it!".
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nfbcs mailing list
> >>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for
> >> nfbcs:
> >>>>>
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab
> >> le.co
> >>>>> m
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nfbcs mailing list
> >>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for
> >> nfbcs:
> >>>>>
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k
> >> 12.wi
> >> .us
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nfbcs mailing list
> >>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for
> >> nfbcs:
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.ne
> >>>>> t
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nfbcs mailing list
> >>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>> for
> >> nfbcs:
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt
> >>>> .com
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nfbcs mailing list
> >>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nfbcs:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nfbcs mailing list
> >> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nfbcs:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net
> >
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nfbcs mailing list
> >> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nfbcs:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vis
> >> i.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nfbcs mailing list
> > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nfbcs mailing list
> > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net