[nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback

Steve Jacobson steve.jacobson at visi.com
Thu Aug 29 15:34:36 UTC 2013 

Kevin,

Interestingly, I played around with this some and found that a bluetooth keyboard can select and push keypad buttons by navigating 
to them with the arrow keys.  This is probably still too slow for long strings of numbers but can work more efficiently in some 
cases than using the touch keypad.  I also found that the numbers on a bluetooth keyboard can be used to enter a number before 
dialing, and even to enter the digits of one's pass code.  As a programmer, I can accept that the keypad that is visible after a 
call is complete may be different that that displayed before and during a call even if it looks similarly, but this isn't a 
logical assumption for a user to make.  

Another aspect of this that I've seen that can cause difficulty is that some systems are geared to accept numbers or voice input 
such as BusLine here in the Twin Cities with which you are likely familiar.  Even if the menu options don't time out as such, slow 
entry causes that system to try to interpret background sounds.  Muting the microphone would probably help this situation, some.  
I suspect that you are right that the inputting of numbers in those situations from a keyboard is not something that has been 
disabled by design.  Where I also agree with Jim is that we sometimes react quickly to a problem without necessarily understanding 
the entire problem.  However, I also completely understand the frustration of some, and I think we have to realize that while 
Apple has shown us that using a touch device is more than just possible, there are aspects of this that we don't fully understand 
yet.  It is my belief, for example, perhaps founded more on observation than real scientific fact, that since we are going to 
depend some on our memory of where buttons and controls are to gain efficiency, those of us who are lucky enough to have a good 
sense of spacial relationships are going to do better than those who have less of that ability.  For a sighted user, spacial 
relationships are not an issue since they are locating buttons visually and touching them.  Therefore, the sighted person who 
finds reading maps to be frustrating because they have a poor sense of spacial relationships will not have a problem with using a 
touch screen, while a blind person with that same lack of ability will have more trouble navigating a touch screen efficiently.  

I also find that an earphone is an essential tool.  Again, going back to Busline, I depend upon being able to hear what is being 
spoken as a cue that my input has been received.  For example, entering a response before the system has finished the menu causes 
it to stop reading.  When holding the phone so that buttons are seen visually, one cannot hear responses as easily, but of course, 
placing the phone near one's ear disables the touch screen as it has to.  My thought was that the answer is to use an earphone 
that does not have a microphone for such purposes.  The iPhone is too smart for that, though, as it seems to know when one uses 
regular stereo earphones without a microphone and it leaves its internal microphone enabled, so I still have trouble with slow 
responses on the keypad causing the system to which I am connected to try to process audio input.  I miss having a simple "mute" 
button.

If we, as people with a technical background, are able to adequately explain that a given feature is not a simple thing to 
implement, thereby causing consumers to approach a developer or manufacturer more reasonably, we should by all means do that.  
However, I don't think it is our job to tell consumers that something can't be done easily when we don't really know how easily it 
could be accomplished.  I am very glad that I can do so much more with my iPhone than I could do with the first couple of 
cellphones I owned.  However, I find it frustrating that each of the last three phones I have used has made checking my work 
voicemail where I have to enter a 6-digit ID a slower process.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:41:15 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:

>SInce there is an edit field where numbers are displayed the change could probably be made fairly easy to support number entry 
from the BlueTooth keyboard.
>I think the larger issue which would require programming is that the user interface for the keyboard is tied to the same 
mechanism that permits the on screen keyboard to be visible or hidden in tandem with the BLueTooth keyboard.
>Thus Apple may not be considering this because the keypad is totally different than the keyboard mode.

>I find menu options to be quite straight forward and even short pin numbers or passwords up to say 7 numbers in length.
>I do find that longer fields such as entering a meeting i.d., for a service such as "go to meeting" which may have 12 to 15 
digits can time out by the time I get that done.
>I definitely believe that using a headset or earphone helps especially in noisier environments.
>-Kevin

>On Aug 28, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:

>> Jim,
>> 
>> The trouble is, I'm not sure that any of us would say we can dial as quickly with the touch keypad with voiceOver as one can 
visually.  However, I'm not sure the answer is as simple as allowing a bluetooth 
>> keyboard during phone calls, either.  I'd really like to know whether there is a reason that this isn't permitted as there 
might be a good one.  Be that as it may, though, I am bothered a little if you feel that we 
>> don't have the right to ask for a feature that might be useful to us simply as customers.  To me, to make a case that this is 
an accessibility issue might be stretching it, but we are now customers, and with my 
>> great big two months of experience with an iPhone under my belt, I do find that interacting with places that require 
significant data entry using the numeric keypad to be difficult at times.  I am continuing to get 
>> better, though.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Steve Jacobson
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 09:25:29 -0700, Barcore wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey Susie,
>> 
>>> Can you explain how this is impacting blind people specifically? Why are we not able to simply use the numbers on the on 
screen keyboard With a pair of headphones? I understand that if you have a 
>> Bluetooth keyboard, it would be more convenient to use those numbers. However, is this any different than it would be for 
sighted folks?
>> 
>>> Thank you,
>> 
>>> Jim
>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 28, 2013, at 7:35 AM, "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO" <Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov> wrote:
>> 
>>>> Hi Listers,
>>>> 
>>>> I know this might be considered off topic, but it is important. Apple needs to hear from us.
>>>> 
>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>> 
>>>> From: IDevices [mailto:idevices-bounces at gatewayfortheblind.com] On Behalf Of David G. Carlson
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:24 AM
>>>> To: Denny at GatewayForTheBlind.Com; IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>> Subject: Re: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>> 
>>>> Done. Agree completely that using the on screen keypad is often not fast enough to satisfy the prompt processor. It's very 
frustrating.
>>>> David G. Carlson
>>>> Marketing / Sales Engineer
>>>> RF Timing and Synchronization
>>>> dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net<mailto:dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Denny Huff<mailto:denny at gatewayfortheblind.com>
>>>> To: IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:24 AM
>>>> Subject: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>> 
>>>> All,
>>>> 
>>>>               If you use Voiceover and have ever tried to use the numbers on your bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call, 
you have found that it doesn't work.  This is a problem that Apple has not 
>> addressed and although the engineers have been made aware of the problem, it still hasn't been resolved.
>>>> 
>>>>               It is very difficult to enter a string of numbers on the IPhone in the amount of time allotted for many of the 
services we may call.  IE: banking service, ordering products with a credit card, etc.  For 
>> those that use a bluetooth keyboard this process would be much simpler if only we could use the numbers on the keyboard.
>>>> 
>>>>               In order for this problem to be addressed and resolved in a timely manner, Apple needs to hear from us.  The 
more people that send them feedback on this problem the more likely the engineers will 
>> take it seriously.
>>>> 
>>>>               This is what you can do.  Follow one of the links below and let them know that you would like to see this 
problem be corrected.  Let them know that you should be able to use Voiceover and the 
>> numbers on a bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call.  Be courteous when making your complaint but also let them know how much 
this affects you.
>>>> 
>>>> Here are the links you can go to to submit your feedback to Apple;
>>>> For the IPhone:
>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/iphone.html
>>>> For the IPad:
>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipad.html
>>>> All other devices and IOS apps:
>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>>> Denny Huff
>>>> Gateway For the Blind LLC.
>>>> PO Box 515
>>>> St. Clair, MO  63077
>>>> Phone: (636) 262-1383
>>>> FAX: (314) 558-0298
>>>> WWW.GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>> 
>>>> Have questions about that IPhone, IPad or IPod Touch?
>>>> Join the IDevices list serve and get answers to your questions and find out tips and tricks about using those devices.
>>>> To join send an email message to:
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>>>> 
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