[nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback

Mike Freeman k7uij at panix.com
Thu Aug 29 17:07:37 UTC 2013 

Steve:

There *is*  a Mute button: once a call has been connected, find the Hide
Keypad button; then flick left until you find the Mute Button. Double-tap
it; then double-tap back where the Hide Keypad button was (I think it now
says Show Keypad) and the keypad is again visible. Yes, this is a bit more
cumbersome than a sighted person must go through but when did we ever
guarantee that blindness *wasn't* a nuisance?

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:35 AM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback

Kevin,

Interestingly, I played around with this some and found that a bluetooth
keyboard can select and push keypad buttons by navigating to them with the
arrow keys.  This is probably still too slow for long strings of numbers but
can work more efficiently in some cases than using the touch keypad.  I also
found that the numbers on a bluetooth keyboard can be used to enter a number
before dialing, and even to enter the digits of one's pass code.  As a
programmer, I can accept that the keypad that is visible after a call is
complete may be different that that displayed before and during a call even
if it looks similarly, but this isn't a logical assumption for a user to
make.  

Another aspect of this that I've seen that can cause difficulty is that some
systems are geared to accept numbers or voice input such as BusLine here in
the Twin Cities with which you are likely familiar.  Even if the menu
options don't time out as such, slow entry causes that system to try to
interpret background sounds.  Muting the microphone would probably help this
situation, some.  
I suspect that you are right that the inputting of numbers in those
situations from a keyboard is not something that has been disabled by
design.  Where I also agree with Jim is that we sometimes react quickly to a
problem without necessarily understanding the entire problem.  However, I
also completely understand the frustration of some, and I think we have to
realize that while Apple has shown us that using a touch device is more than
just possible, there are aspects of this that we don't fully understand yet.
It is my belief, for example, perhaps founded more on observation than real
scientific fact, that since we are going to depend some on our memory of
where buttons and controls are to gain efficiency, those of us who are lucky
enough to have a good sense of spacial relationships are going to do better
than those who have less of that ability.  For a sighted user, spacial
relationships are not an issue since they are locating buttons visually and
touching them.  Therefore, the sighted person who finds reading maps to be
frustrating because they have a poor sense of spacial relationships will not
have a problem with using a touch screen, while a blind person with that
same lack of ability will have more trouble navigating a touch screen
efficiently.  

I also find that an earphone is an essential tool.  Again, going back to
Busline, I depend upon being able to hear what is being spoken as a cue that
my input has been received.  For example, entering a response before the
system has finished the menu causes it to stop reading.  When holding the
phone so that buttons are seen visually, one cannot hear responses as
easily, but of course, placing the phone near one's ear disables the touch
screen as it has to.  My thought was that the answer is to use an earphone
that does not have a microphone for such purposes.  The iPhone is too smart
for that, though, as it seems to know when one uses regular stereo earphones
without a microphone and it leaves its internal microphone enabled, so I
still have trouble with slow responses on the keypad causing the system to
which I am connected to try to process audio input.  I miss having a simple
"mute" 
button.

If we, as people with a technical background, are able to adequately explain
that a given feature is not a simple thing to implement, thereby causing
consumers to approach a developer or manufacturer more reasonably, we should
by all means do that.  
However, I don't think it is our job to tell consumers that something can't
be done easily when we don't really know how easily it could be
accomplished.  I am very glad that I can do so much more with my iPhone than
I could do with the first couple of cellphones I owned.  However, I find it
frustrating that each of the last three phones I have used has made checking
my work voicemail where I have to enter a 6-digit ID a slower process.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:41:15 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:

>SInce there is an edit field where numbers are displayed the change 
>could probably be made fairly easy to support number entry
from the BlueTooth keyboard.
>I think the larger issue which would require programming is that the 
>user interface for the keyboard is tied to the same
mechanism that permits the on screen keyboard to be visible or hidden in
tandem with the BLueTooth keyboard.
>Thus Apple may not be considering this because the keypad is totally
different than the keyboard mode.

>I find menu options to be quite straight forward and even short pin numbers
or passwords up to say 7 numbers in length.
>I do find that longer fields such as entering a meeting i.d., for a 
>service such as "go to meeting" which may have 12 to 15
digits can time out by the time I get that done.
>I definitely believe that using a headset or earphone helps especially in
noisier environments.
>-Kevin

>On Aug 28, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
wrote:

>> Jim,
>> 
>> The trouble is, I'm not sure that any of us would say we can dial as 
>> quickly with the touch keypad with voiceOver as one can
visually.  However, I'm not sure the answer is as simple as allowing a
bluetooth 
>> keyboard during phone calls, either.  I'd really like to know whether 
>> there is a reason that this isn't permitted as there
might be a good one.  Be that as it may, though, I am bothered a little if
you feel that we 
>> don't have the right to ask for a feature that might be useful to us 
>> simply as customers.  To me, to make a case that this is
an accessibility issue might be stretching it, but we are now customers, and
with my 
>> great big two months of experience with an iPhone under my belt, I do 
>> find that interacting with places that require
significant data entry using the numeric keypad to be difficult at times.  I
am continuing to get 
>> better, though.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Steve Jacobson
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 09:25:29 -0700, Barcore wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey Susie,
>> 
>>> Can you explain how this is impacting blind people specifically? Why 
>>> are we not able to simply use the numbers on the on
screen keyboard With a pair of headphones? I understand that if you have a 
>> Bluetooth keyboard, it would be more convenient to use those numbers. 
>> However, is this any different than it would be for
sighted folks?
>> 
>>> Thank you,
>> 
>>> Jim
>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 28, 2013, at 7:35 AM, "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
<Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov> wrote:
>> 
>>>> Hi Listers,
>>>> 
>>>> I know this might be considered off topic, but it is important. Apple
needs to hear from us.
>>>> 
>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>> 
>>>> From: IDevices [mailto:idevices-bounces at gatewayfortheblind.com] On 
>>>> Behalf Of David G. Carlson
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:24 AM
>>>> To: Denny at GatewayForTheBlind.Com; IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>> Subject: Re: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>> 
>>>> Done. Agree completely that using the on screen keypad is often not 
>>>> fast enough to satisfy the prompt processor. It's very
frustrating.
>>>> David G. Carlson
>>>> Marketing / Sales Engineer
>>>> RF Timing and Synchronization
>>>> dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net<mailto:dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Denny Huff<mailto:denny at gatewayfortheblind.com>
>>>> To: 
>>>> IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.
>>>> Com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:24 AM
>>>> Subject: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>> 
>>>> All,
>>>> 
>>>>               If you use Voiceover and have ever tried to use the 
>>>> numbers on your bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call,
you have found that it doesn't work.  This is a problem that Apple has not 
>> addressed and although the engineers have been made aware of the problem,
it still hasn't been resolved.
>>>> 
>>>>               It is very difficult to enter a string of numbers on 
>>>> the IPhone in the amount of time allotted for many of the
services we may call.  IE: banking service, ordering products with a credit
card, etc.  For 
>> those that use a bluetooth keyboard this process would be much simpler if
only we could use the numbers on the keyboard.
>>>> 
>>>>               In order for this problem to be addressed and 
>>>> resolved in a timely manner, Apple needs to hear from us.  The
more people that send them feedback on this problem the more likely the
engineers will 
>> take it seriously.
>>>> 
>>>>               This is what you can do.  Follow one of the links 
>>>> below and let them know that you would like to see this
problem be corrected.  Let them know that you should be able to use
Voiceover and the 
>> numbers on a bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call.  Be courteous 
>> when making your complaint but also let them know how much
this affects you.
>>>> 
>>>> Here are the links you can go to to submit your feedback to Apple; 
>>>> For the IPhone:
>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/iphone.html
>>>> For the IPad:
>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipad.html
>>>> All other devices and IOS apps:
>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>>> Denny Huff
>>>> Gateway For the Blind LLC.
>>>> PO Box 515
>>>> St. Clair, MO  63077
>>>> Phone: (636) 262-1383
>>>> FAX: (314) 558-0298
>>>> WWW.GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>> 
>>>> Have questions about that IPhone, IPad or IPod Touch?
>>>> Join the IDevices list serve and get answers to your questions and find
out tips and tricks about using those devices.
>>>> To join send an email message to:
>>>> IDevices-Join at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices-Join at GatewayFo
>>>> rTheBlind.Com>
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
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>> 
>> 
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