[nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
Mike Freeman
k7uij at panix.com
Thu Aug 29 19:41:38 UTC 2013
Steve:
It's not that I condemn asking for such modifications; I simply do not see
their necessity in view of the fact that there are easy work-arounds. To me,
wearing ear-buds has pretty-much solved any awkwardness entering numbers
etc.I will admit, however, to being much more sympathetic totrue
accessibility issues as opposed to having "nice-to-have" requests.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:33 AM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
Wow, Mike, I didn't see this coming at all. I get the impression that if we
were talking about Window-Eyes or JAWS, that neither you or Jim would have a
problem with us asking them to make changes for us, but since Apple has
taken on this responsibility, we've lost all right to ask for anything that
a sighted person doesn't have. Apple is now a mainstream manufacturer and
an assistive technology producer, so I don't understand the reasoning that
asking for something is a betrayal of our philosophy.
Frankly, these are important and complicated issues, and we have to get an
understanding of what they involve and have a somewhat uniform approach, so
I am very interested in your take on this. I didn't think I was going out
on a limb at all in my last note and am both surprised and concerned that
you think I did. By the way, how is the mute button any easier for a
sighted person to press? My comment that I wish I had a mute button to me
seems reasonable for anyone to ask, not just a blind person, but I am truly
not going to mount a campaign to have it done. <smile>
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:07:37 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>Steve:
>There *is* a Mute button: once a call has been connected, find the
>Hide Keypad button; then flick left until you find the Mute Button.
>Double-tap it; then double-tap back where the Hide Keypad button was (I
>think it now says Show Keypad) and the keypad is again visible. Yes,
>this is a bit more cumbersome than a sighted person must go through but
>when did we ever guarantee that blindness *wasn't* a nuisance?
>Mike
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>Jacobson
>Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:35 AM
>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>Kevin,
>Interestingly, I played around with this some and found that a
>bluetooth keyboard can select and push keypad buttons by navigating to
>them with the arrow keys. This is probably still too slow for long
>strings of numbers but can work more efficiently in some cases than
>using the touch keypad. I also found that the numbers on a bluetooth
>keyboard can be used to enter a number before dialing, and even to
>enter the digits of one's pass code. As a programmer, I can accept
>that the keypad that is visible after a call is complete may be
>different that that displayed before and during a call even if it looks
>similarly, but this isn't a logical assumption for a user to make.
>Another aspect of this that I've seen that can cause difficulty is that
>some systems are geared to accept numbers or voice input such as
>BusLine here in the Twin Cities with which you are likely familiar.
>Even if the menu options don't time out as such, slow entry causes that
>system to try to interpret background sounds. Muting the microphone
>would probably help this situation, some.
>I suspect that you are right that the inputting of numbers in those
>situations from a keyboard is not something that has been disabled by
>design. Where I also agree with Jim is that we sometimes react quickly
>to a problem without necessarily understanding the entire problem.
>However, I also completely understand the frustration of some, and I
>think we have to realize that while Apple has shown us that using a
>touch device is more than just possible, there are aspects of this that we
don't fully understand yet.
>It is my belief, for example, perhaps founded more on observation than
>real scientific fact, that since we are going to depend some on our
>memory of where buttons and controls are to gain efficiency, those of
>us who are lucky enough to have a good sense of spacial relationships
>are going to do better than those who have less of that ability. For a
>sighted user, spacial relationships are not an issue since they are
>locating buttons visually and touching them. Therefore, the sighted
>person who finds reading maps to be frustrating because they have a
>poor sense of spacial relationships will not have a problem with using
>a touch screen, while a blind person with that same lack of ability
>will have more trouble navigating a touch screen efficiently.
>I also find that an earphone is an essential tool. Again, going back
>to Busline, I depend upon being able to hear what is being spoken as a
>cue that my input has been received. For example, entering a response
>before the system has finished the menu causes it to stop reading.
>When holding the phone so that buttons are seen visually, one cannot
>hear responses as easily, but of course, placing the phone near one's
>ear disables the touch screen as it has to. My thought was that the
>answer is to use an earphone that does not have a microphone for such
>purposes. The iPhone is too smart for that, though, as it seems to
>know when one uses regular stereo earphones without a microphone and it
>leaves its internal microphone enabled, so I still have trouble with
>slow responses on the keypad causing the system to which I am connected
>to try to process audio input. I miss having a simple "mute"
>button.
>If we, as people with a technical background, are able to adequately
>explain that a given feature is not a simple thing to implement,
>thereby causing consumers to approach a developer or manufacturer more
>reasonably, we should by all means do that.
>However, I don't think it is our job to tell consumers that something
>can't be done easily when we don't really know how easily it could be
>accomplished. I am very glad that I can do so much more with my iPhone
>than I could do with the first couple of cellphones I owned. However,
>I find it frustrating that each of the last three phones I have used
>has made checking my work voicemail where I have to enter a 6-digit ID a
slower process.
>Best regards,
>Steve Jacobson
>On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:41:15 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>SInce there is an edit field where numbers are displayed the change
>>could probably be made fairly easy to support number entry
>from the BlueTooth keyboard.
>>I think the larger issue which would require programming is that the
>>user interface for the keyboard is tied to the same
>mechanism that permits the on screen keyboard to be visible or hidden
>in tandem with the BLueTooth keyboard.
>>Thus Apple may not be considering this because the keypad is totally
>different than the keyboard mode.
>>I find menu options to be quite straight forward and even short pin
>>numbers
>or passwords up to say 7 numbers in length.
>>I do find that longer fields such as entering a meeting i.d., for a
>>service such as "go to meeting" which may have 12 to 15
>digits can time out by the time I get that done.
>>I definitely believe that using a headset or earphone helps especially
>>in
>noisier environments.
>>-Kevin
>>On Aug 28, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Steve Jacobson"
>><steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>wrote:
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> The trouble is, I'm not sure that any of us would say we can dial as
>>> quickly with the touch keypad with voiceOver as one can
>visually. However, I'm not sure the answer is as simple as allowing a
>bluetooth
>>> keyboard during phone calls, either. I'd really like to know
>>> whether there is a reason that this isn't permitted as there
>might be a good one. Be that as it may, though, I am bothered a little
>if you feel that we
>>> don't have the right to ask for a feature that might be useful to us
>>> simply as customers. To me, to make a case that this is
>an accessibility issue might be stretching it, but we are now
>customers, and with my
>>> great big two months of experience with an iPhone under my belt, I
>>> do find that interacting with places that require
>significant data entry using the numeric keypad to be difficult at
>times. I am continuing to get
>>> better, though.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 09:25:29 -0700, Barcore wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey Susie,
>>>
>>>> Can you explain how this is impacting blind people specifically?
>>>> Why are we not able to simply use the numbers on the on
>screen keyboard With a pair of headphones? I understand that if you
>have a
>>> Bluetooth keyboard, it would be more convenient to use those numbers.
>>> However, is this any different than it would be for
>sighted folks?
>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Aug 28, 2013, at 7:35 AM, "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
><Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Hi Listers,
>>>>>
>>>>> I know this might be considered off topic, but it is important.
>>>>> Apple
>needs to hear from us.
>>>>>
>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>
>>>>> From: IDevices [mailto:idevices-bounces at gatewayfortheblind.com] On
>>>>> Behalf Of David G. Carlson
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:24 AM
>>>>> To: Denny at GatewayForTheBlind.Com; IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>>>
>>>>> Done. Agree completely that using the on screen keypad is often
>>>>> not fast enough to satisfy the prompt processor. It's very
>frustrating.
>>>>> David G. Carlson
>>>>> Marketing / Sales Engineer
>>>>> RF Timing and Synchronization
>>>>> dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net<mailto:dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Denny Huff<mailto:denny at gatewayfortheblind.com>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.
>>>>> Com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:24 AM
>>>>> Subject: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>>>
>>>>> All,
>>>>>
>>>>> If you use Voiceover and have ever tried to use the
>>>>> numbers on your bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call,
>you have found that it doesn't work. This is a problem that Apple has
>not
>>> addressed and although the engineers have been made aware of the
>>> problem,
>it still hasn't been resolved.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is very difficult to enter a string of numbers on
>>>>> the IPhone in the amount of time allotted for many of the
>services we may call. IE: banking service, ordering products with a
>credit card, etc. For
>>> those that use a bluetooth keyboard this process would be much
>>> simpler if
>only we could use the numbers on the keyboard.
>>>>>
>>>>> In order for this problem to be addressed and
>>>>> resolved in a timely manner, Apple needs to hear from us. The
>more people that send them feedback on this problem the more likely the
>engineers will
>>> take it seriously.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is what you can do. Follow one of the links
>>>>> below and let them know that you would like to see this
>problem be corrected. Let them know that you should be able to use
>Voiceover and the
>>> numbers on a bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call. Be courteous
>>> when making your complaint but also let them know how much
>this affects you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are the links you can go to to submit your feedback to Apple;
>>>>> For the IPhone:
>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/iphone.html
>>>>> For the IPad:
>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipad.html
>>>>> All other devices and IOS apps:
>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>>> _
>>>>> Denny Huff
>>>>> Gateway For the Blind LLC.
>>>>> PO Box 515
>>>>> St. Clair, MO 63077
>>>>> Phone: (636) 262-1383
>>>>> FAX: (314) 558-0298
>>>>> WWW.GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>>>
>>>>> Have questions about that IPhone, IPad or IPod Touch?
>>>>> Join the IDevices list serve and get answers to your questions and
>>>>> find
>out tips and tricks about using those devices.
>>>>> To join send an email message to:
>>>>> IDevices-Join at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices-Join at GatewayF
>>>>> o
>>>>> rTheBlind.Com>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> _______________________________________
>>>>> Having problems with MS Office applications? Join the MS Office
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>screen readers list serve at:
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>>>>> w
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>>>>> IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.
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>>>>> The Gateway To Independence
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA
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>>>>> _______________________________________
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