[nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Thu Aug 29 17:33:05 UTC 2013
Wow, Mike, I didn't see this coming at all. I get the impression that if we were talking about Window-Eyes or JAWS, that neither
you or Jim would have a problem with us asking them to make changes for us, but since Apple has taken on this responsibility,
we've lost all right to ask for anything that a sighted person doesn't have. Apple is now a mainstream manufacturer and an
assistive technology producer, so I don't understand the reasoning that asking for something is a betrayal of our philosophy.
Frankly, these are important and complicated issues, and we have to get an understanding of what they involve and have a somewhat
uniform approach, so I am very interested in your take on this. I didn't think I was going out on a limb at all in my last note
and am both surprised and concerned that you think I did. By the way, how is the mute button any easier for a sighted person to
press? My comment that I wish I had a mute button to me seems reasonable for anyone to ask, not just a blind person, but I am
truly not going to mount a campaign to have it done. <smile>
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:07:37 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>Steve:
>There *is* a Mute button: once a call has been connected, find the Hide
>Keypad button; then flick left until you find the Mute Button. Double-tap
>it; then double-tap back where the Hide Keypad button was (I think it now
>says Show Keypad) and the keypad is again visible. Yes, this is a bit more
>cumbersome than a sighted person must go through but when did we ever
>guarantee that blindness *wasn't* a nuisance?
>Mike
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:35 AM
>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>Kevin,
>Interestingly, I played around with this some and found that a bluetooth
>keyboard can select and push keypad buttons by navigating to them with the
>arrow keys. This is probably still too slow for long strings of numbers but
>can work more efficiently in some cases than using the touch keypad. I also
>found that the numbers on a bluetooth keyboard can be used to enter a number
>before dialing, and even to enter the digits of one's pass code. As a
>programmer, I can accept that the keypad that is visible after a call is
>complete may be different that that displayed before and during a call even
>if it looks similarly, but this isn't a logical assumption for a user to
>make.
>Another aspect of this that I've seen that can cause difficulty is that some
>systems are geared to accept numbers or voice input such as BusLine here in
>the Twin Cities with which you are likely familiar. Even if the menu
>options don't time out as such, slow entry causes that system to try to
>interpret background sounds. Muting the microphone would probably help this
>situation, some.
>I suspect that you are right that the inputting of numbers in those
>situations from a keyboard is not something that has been disabled by
>design. Where I also agree with Jim is that we sometimes react quickly to a
>problem without necessarily understanding the entire problem. However, I
>also completely understand the frustration of some, and I think we have to
>realize that while Apple has shown us that using a touch device is more than
>just possible, there are aspects of this that we don't fully understand yet.
>It is my belief, for example, perhaps founded more on observation than real
>scientific fact, that since we are going to depend some on our memory of
>where buttons and controls are to gain efficiency, those of us who are lucky
>enough to have a good sense of spacial relationships are going to do better
>than those who have less of that ability. For a sighted user, spacial
>relationships are not an issue since they are locating buttons visually and
>touching them. Therefore, the sighted person who finds reading maps to be
>frustrating because they have a poor sense of spacial relationships will not
>have a problem with using a touch screen, while a blind person with that
>same lack of ability will have more trouble navigating a touch screen
>efficiently.
>I also find that an earphone is an essential tool. Again, going back to
>Busline, I depend upon being able to hear what is being spoken as a cue that
>my input has been received. For example, entering a response before the
>system has finished the menu causes it to stop reading. When holding the
>phone so that buttons are seen visually, one cannot hear responses as
>easily, but of course, placing the phone near one's ear disables the touch
>screen as it has to. My thought was that the answer is to use an earphone
>that does not have a microphone for such purposes. The iPhone is too smart
>for that, though, as it seems to know when one uses regular stereo earphones
>without a microphone and it leaves its internal microphone enabled, so I
>still have trouble with slow responses on the keypad causing the system to
>which I am connected to try to process audio input. I miss having a simple
>"mute"
>button.
>If we, as people with a technical background, are able to adequately explain
>that a given feature is not a simple thing to implement, thereby causing
>consumers to approach a developer or manufacturer more reasonably, we should
>by all means do that.
>However, I don't think it is our job to tell consumers that something can't
>be done easily when we don't really know how easily it could be
>accomplished. I am very glad that I can do so much more with my iPhone than
>I could do with the first couple of cellphones I owned. However, I find it
>frustrating that each of the last three phones I have used has made checking
>my work voicemail where I have to enter a 6-digit ID a slower process.
>Best regards,
>Steve Jacobson
>On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:41:15 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>SInce there is an edit field where numbers are displayed the change
>>could probably be made fairly easy to support number entry
>from the BlueTooth keyboard.
>>I think the larger issue which would require programming is that the
>>user interface for the keyboard is tied to the same
>mechanism that permits the on screen keyboard to be visible or hidden in
>tandem with the BLueTooth keyboard.
>>Thus Apple may not be considering this because the keypad is totally
>different than the keyboard mode.
>>I find menu options to be quite straight forward and even short pin numbers
>or passwords up to say 7 numbers in length.
>>I do find that longer fields such as entering a meeting i.d., for a
>>service such as "go to meeting" which may have 12 to 15
>digits can time out by the time I get that done.
>>I definitely believe that using a headset or earphone helps especially in
>noisier environments.
>>-Kevin
>>On Aug 28, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>wrote:
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> The trouble is, I'm not sure that any of us would say we can dial as
>>> quickly with the touch keypad with voiceOver as one can
>visually. However, I'm not sure the answer is as simple as allowing a
>bluetooth
>>> keyboard during phone calls, either. I'd really like to know whether
>>> there is a reason that this isn't permitted as there
>might be a good one. Be that as it may, though, I am bothered a little if
>you feel that we
>>> don't have the right to ask for a feature that might be useful to us
>>> simply as customers. To me, to make a case that this is
>an accessibility issue might be stretching it, but we are now customers, and
>with my
>>> great big two months of experience with an iPhone under my belt, I do
>>> find that interacting with places that require
>significant data entry using the numeric keypad to be difficult at times. I
>am continuing to get
>>> better, though.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 09:25:29 -0700, Barcore wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey Susie,
>>>
>>>> Can you explain how this is impacting blind people specifically? Why
>>>> are we not able to simply use the numbers on the on
>screen keyboard With a pair of headphones? I understand that if you have a
>>> Bluetooth keyboard, it would be more convenient to use those numbers.
>>> However, is this any different than it would be for
>sighted folks?
>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Aug 28, 2013, at 7:35 AM, "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
><Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Hi Listers,
>>>>>
>>>>> I know this might be considered off topic, but it is important. Apple
>needs to hear from us.
>>>>>
>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>
>>>>> From: IDevices [mailto:idevices-bounces at gatewayfortheblind.com] On
>>>>> Behalf Of David G. Carlson
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:24 AM
>>>>> To: Denny at GatewayForTheBlind.Com; IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>>>
>>>>> Done. Agree completely that using the on screen keypad is often not
>>>>> fast enough to satisfy the prompt processor. It's very
>frustrating.
>>>>> David G. Carlson
>>>>> Marketing / Sales Engineer
>>>>> RF Timing and Synchronization
>>>>> dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net<mailto:dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Denny Huff<mailto:denny at gatewayfortheblind.com>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.
>>>>> Com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:24 AM
>>>>> Subject: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>>>
>>>>> All,
>>>>>
>>>>> If you use Voiceover and have ever tried to use the
>>>>> numbers on your bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call,
>you have found that it doesn't work. This is a problem that Apple has not
>>> addressed and although the engineers have been made aware of the problem,
>it still hasn't been resolved.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is very difficult to enter a string of numbers on
>>>>> the IPhone in the amount of time allotted for many of the
>services we may call. IE: banking service, ordering products with a credit
>card, etc. For
>>> those that use a bluetooth keyboard this process would be much simpler if
>only we could use the numbers on the keyboard.
>>>>>
>>>>> In order for this problem to be addressed and
>>>>> resolved in a timely manner, Apple needs to hear from us. The
>more people that send them feedback on this problem the more likely the
>engineers will
>>> take it seriously.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is what you can do. Follow one of the links
>>>>> below and let them know that you would like to see this
>problem be corrected. Let them know that you should be able to use
>Voiceover and the
>>> numbers on a bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call. Be courteous
>>> when making your complaint but also let them know how much
>this affects you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are the links you can go to to submit your feedback to Apple;
>>>>> For the IPhone:
>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/iphone.html
>>>>> For the IPad:
>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipad.html
>>>>> All other devices and IOS apps:
>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Denny Huff
>>>>> Gateway For the Blind LLC.
>>>>> PO Box 515
>>>>> St. Clair, MO 63077
>>>>> Phone: (636) 262-1383
>>>>> FAX: (314) 558-0298
>>>>> WWW.GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>>>
>>>>> Have questions about that IPhone, IPad or IPod Touch?
>>>>> Join the IDevices list serve and get answers to your questions and find
>out tips and tricks about using those devices.
>>>>> To join send an email message to:
>>>>> IDevices-Join at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices-Join at GatewayFo
>>>>> rTheBlind.Com>
>>>>>
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