[nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
I. C. Bray
i.c.bray at win.net
Fri Aug 30 22:22:27 UTC 2013
I still think a battery-powered DTMF generator with line in and line out to
plug into the headphone jack would be neat... *sigh* LOL.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
> Mike,
>
> I don't think we really disagree about being careful how we categorize a
> request. I simply don't find wondering about why
> bluetooth keyboard numbers don't work after a connection is made is an
> unreasonable thing to wonder. I would not personally
> categorize it as an accessibility issue for blind people, though, but it
> might be an accessibility issue for people having certain
> motor functions. As I mentioned in another note, I found that a bluetooth
> keyboard can enter numbers after a connection is made
> by navigating to the buttons with the arrow keys and then using the
> appropriate keys to press the button. In many instances, this
> would be fast enough. The problem also impacts braille displays inasmuch
> as apparently you can't enter numbers after a connection
> is made but you can focus on the keypad and use cursor routing keys.
> Ironically, neither of these problems, if you want to call
> them problems, involve VoiceOver. Although I have a bluetooth keyboard,
> my approach is to get as good as I can using the touch
> screen directly for most things. I will probably use my keyboard some if
> I get more into doing email on my iPhone, and I do find
> it useful if I get involved in a text message conversation.
>
> My comment about the "mute" button really had nothing to do with
> accessibility and I probably should not have made the comment I
> did. I simply was reacting to it taking three actions to execute when
> every other cellphone and cordless phone I have ever owned
> has had a directly accessible mute button.
>
> I suspect where we are in total agreement is that there is often confusion
> even in software between what is lack of accessibility
> and what is poor design. We sometimes think every piece of software,
> every web site, and every device is easy for sighted people
> to use, but they are not. We have to be careful to know which is which if
> we're going to start applying laws and regulations to a
> given situation. We also have to be careful that we don't judge something
> to be inaccessible before we've carefully explored all
> alternatives. Part of what I was trying to get at yesterday is simply
> that we're going to find that there are going to be blind
> people who never get efficient with touch screens. Exactly where the line
> is going to be is something we really don't know yet.
> For now, there are alternatives, but I think we need to understand this
> thoroughly as all of this evolves, especially where it
> affects basic appliances and communication.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 12:41:38 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>
>>Steve:
>
>>It's not that I condemn asking for such modifications; I simply do not see
>>their necessity in view of the fact that there are easy work-arounds. To
>>me,
>>wearing ear-buds has pretty-much solved any awkwardness entering numbers
>>etc.I will admit, however, to being much more sympathetic totrue
>>accessibility issues as opposed to having "nice-to-have" requests.
>
>>Mike
>>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>>Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:33 AM
>>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>
>>Wow, Mike, I didn't see this coming at all. I get the impression that if
>>we
>>were talking about Window-Eyes or JAWS, that neither you or Jim would have
>>a
>>problem with us asking them to make changes for us, but since Apple has
>>taken on this responsibility, we've lost all right to ask for anything
>>that
>>a sighted person doesn't have. Apple is now a mainstream manufacturer and
>>an assistive technology producer, so I don't understand the reasoning that
>>asking for something is a betrayal of our philosophy.
>>Frankly, these are important and complicated issues, and we have to get an
>>understanding of what they involve and have a somewhat uniform approach,
>>so
>>I am very interested in your take on this. I didn't think I was going out
>>on a limb at all in my last note and am both surprised and concerned that
>>you think I did. By the way, how is the mute button any easier for a
>>sighted person to press? My comment that I wish I had a mute button to me
>>seems reasonable for anyone to ask, not just a blind person, but I am
>>truly
>>not going to mount a campaign to have it done. <smile>
>
>>Best regards,
>
>>Steve Jacobson
>
>>On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:07:37 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>
>>>Steve:
>
>>>There *is* a Mute button: once a call has been connected, find the
>>>Hide Keypad button; then flick left until you find the Mute Button.
>>>Double-tap it; then double-tap back where the Hide Keypad button was (I
>>>think it now says Show Keypad) and the keypad is again visible. Yes,
>>>this is a bit more cumbersome than a sighted person must go through but
>>>when did we ever guarantee that blindness *wasn't* a nuisance?
>
>>>Mike
>
>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>Jacobson
>>>Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:35 AM
>>>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>
>>>Kevin,
>
>>>Interestingly, I played around with this some and found that a
>>>bluetooth keyboard can select and push keypad buttons by navigating to
>>>them with the arrow keys. This is probably still too slow for long
>>>strings of numbers but can work more efficiently in some cases than
>>>using the touch keypad. I also found that the numbers on a bluetooth
>>>keyboard can be used to enter a number before dialing, and even to
>>>enter the digits of one's pass code. As a programmer, I can accept
>>>that the keypad that is visible after a call is complete may be
>>>different that that displayed before and during a call even if it looks
>>>similarly, but this isn't a logical assumption for a user to make.
>
>>>Another aspect of this that I've seen that can cause difficulty is that
>>>some systems are geared to accept numbers or voice input such as
>>>BusLine here in the Twin Cities with which you are likely familiar.
>>>Even if the menu options don't time out as such, slow entry causes that
>>>system to try to interpret background sounds. Muting the microphone
>>>would probably help this situation, some.
>>>I suspect that you are right that the inputting of numbers in those
>>>situations from a keyboard is not something that has been disabled by
>>>design. Where I also agree with Jim is that we sometimes react quickly
>>>to a problem without necessarily understanding the entire problem.
>>>However, I also completely understand the frustration of some, and I
>>>think we have to realize that while Apple has shown us that using a
>>>touch device is more than just possible, there are aspects of this that
>>>we
>>don't fully understand yet.
>>>It is my belief, for example, perhaps founded more on observation than
>>>real scientific fact, that since we are going to depend some on our
>>>memory of where buttons and controls are to gain efficiency, those of
>>>us who are lucky enough to have a good sense of spacial relationships
>>>are going to do better than those who have less of that ability. For a
>>>sighted user, spacial relationships are not an issue since they are
>>>locating buttons visually and touching them. Therefore, the sighted
>>>person who finds reading maps to be frustrating because they have a
>>>poor sense of spacial relationships will not have a problem with using
>>>a touch screen, while a blind person with that same lack of ability
>>>will have more trouble navigating a touch screen efficiently.
>
>>>I also find that an earphone is an essential tool. Again, going back
>>>to Busline, I depend upon being able to hear what is being spoken as a
>>>cue that my input has been received. For example, entering a response
>>>before the system has finished the menu causes it to stop reading.
>>>When holding the phone so that buttons are seen visually, one cannot
>>>hear responses as easily, but of course, placing the phone near one's
>>>ear disables the touch screen as it has to. My thought was that the
>>>answer is to use an earphone that does not have a microphone for such
>>>purposes. The iPhone is too smart for that, though, as it seems to
>>>know when one uses regular stereo earphones without a microphone and it
>>>leaves its internal microphone enabled, so I still have trouble with
>>>slow responses on the keypad causing the system to which I am connected
>>>to try to process audio input. I miss having a simple "mute"
>>>button.
>
>>>If we, as people with a technical background, are able to adequately
>>>explain that a given feature is not a simple thing to implement,
>>>thereby causing consumers to approach a developer or manufacturer more
>>>reasonably, we should by all means do that.
>>>However, I don't think it is our job to tell consumers that something
>>>can't be done easily when we don't really know how easily it could be
>>>accomplished. I am very glad that I can do so much more with my iPhone
>>>than I could do with the first couple of cellphones I owned. However,
>>>I find it frustrating that each of the last three phones I have used
>>>has made checking my work voicemail where I have to enter a 6-digit ID a
>>slower process.
>
>>>Best regards,
>
>>>Steve Jacobson
>
>>>On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:41:15 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>
>>>>SInce there is an edit field where numbers are displayed the change
>>>>could probably be made fairly easy to support number entry
>>>from the BlueTooth keyboard.
>>>>I think the larger issue which would require programming is that the
>>>>user interface for the keyboard is tied to the same
>>>mechanism that permits the on screen keyboard to be visible or hidden
>>>in tandem with the BLueTooth keyboard.
>>>>Thus Apple may not be considering this because the keypad is totally
>>>different than the keyboard mode.
>
>>>>I find menu options to be quite straight forward and even short pin
>>>>numbers
>>>or passwords up to say 7 numbers in length.
>>>>I do find that longer fields such as entering a meeting i.d., for a
>>>>service such as "go to meeting" which may have 12 to 15
>>>digits can time out by the time I get that done.
>>>>I definitely believe that using a headset or earphone helps especially
>>>>in
>>>noisier environments.
>>>>-Kevin
>
>>>>On Aug 28, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Steve Jacobson"
>>>><steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>wrote:
>
>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>
>>>>> The trouble is, I'm not sure that any of us would say we can dial as
>>>>> quickly with the touch keypad with voiceOver as one can
>>>visually. However, I'm not sure the answer is as simple as allowing a
>>>bluetooth
>>>>> keyboard during phone calls, either. I'd really like to know
>>>>> whether there is a reason that this isn't permitted as there
>>>might be a good one. Be that as it may, though, I am bothered a little
>>>if you feel that we
>>>>> don't have the right to ask for a feature that might be useful to us
>>>>> simply as customers. To me, to make a case that this is
>>>an accessibility issue might be stretching it, but we are now
>>>customers, and with my
>>>>> great big two months of experience with an iPhone under my belt, I
>>>>> do find that interacting with places that require
>>>significant data entry using the numeric keypad to be difficult at
>>>times. I am continuing to get
>>>>> better, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 09:25:29 -0700, Barcore wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Susie,
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you explain how this is impacting blind people specifically?
>>>>>> Why are we not able to simply use the numbers on the on
>>>screen keyboard With a pair of headphones? I understand that if you
>>>have a
>>>>> Bluetooth keyboard, it would be more convenient to use those numbers.
>>>>> However, is this any different than it would be for
>>>sighted folks?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 28, 2013, at 7:35 AM, "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
>>><Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Listers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know this might be considered off topic, but it is important.
>>>>>>> Apple
>>>needs to hear from us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: IDevices [mailto:idevices-bounces at gatewayfortheblind.com] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of David G. Carlson
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:24 AM
>>>>>>> To: Denny at GatewayForTheBlind.Com; IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Done. Agree completely that using the on screen keypad is often
>>>>>>> not fast enough to satisfy the prompt processor. It's very
>>>frustrating.
>>>>>>> David G. Carlson
>>>>>>> Marketing / Sales Engineer
>>>>>>> RF Timing and Synchronization
>>>>>>> dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net<mailto:dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Denny Huff<mailto:denny at gatewayfortheblind.com>
>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>> IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.
>>>>>>> Com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:24 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you use Voiceover and have ever tried to use the
>>>>>>> numbers on your bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call,
>>>you have found that it doesn't work. This is a problem that Apple has
>>>not
>>>>> addressed and although the engineers have been made aware of the
>>>>> problem,
>>>it still hasn't been resolved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is very difficult to enter a string of numbers on
>>>>>>> the IPhone in the amount of time allotted for many of the
>>>services we may call. IE: banking service, ordering products with a
>>>credit card, etc. For
>>>>> those that use a bluetooth keyboard this process would be much
>>>>> simpler if
>>>only we could use the numbers on the keyboard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In order for this problem to be addressed and
>>>>>>> resolved in a timely manner, Apple needs to hear from us. The
>>>more people that send them feedback on this problem the more likely the
>>>engineers will
>>>>> take it seriously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is what you can do. Follow one of the links
>>>>>>> below and let them know that you would like to see this
>>>problem be corrected. Let them know that you should be able to use
>>>Voiceover and the
>>>>> numbers on a bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call. Be courteous
>>>>> when making your complaint but also let them know how much
>>>this affects you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here are the links you can go to to submit your feedback to Apple;
>>>>>>> For the IPhone:
>>>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/iphone.html
>>>>>>> For the IPad:
>>>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipad.html
>>>>>>> All other devices and IOS apps:
>>>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> _
>>>>>>> Denny Huff
>>>>>>> Gateway For the Blind LLC.
>>>>>>> PO Box 515
>>>>>>> St. Clair, MO 63077
>>>>>>> Phone: (636) 262-1383
>>>>>>> FAX: (314) 558-0298
>>>>>>> WWW.GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have questions about that IPhone, IPad or IPod Touch?
>>>>>>> Join the IDevices list serve and get answers to your questions and
>>>>>>> find
>>>out tips and tricks about using those devices.
>>>>>>> To join send an email message to:
>>>>>>> IDevices-Join at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices-Join at GatewayF
>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>> rTheBlind.Com>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> The Gateway To Independence
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