[nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback

I. C. Bray i.c.bray at win.net
Fri Aug 30 22:06:48 UTC 2013 

Mike,

I think the point is that if you can get the native problem fixed instead of 
using a work-a-round, it is preferred.
Any time someone asks for feedback, input, or commentary on how to "fix" a 
problem, it is an opportunity to do just that.

Work-a-rounds are temporary solutions, in my opinion.  Sharing work-a-rounds 
is great, but the issue should be resolved natively.

This makes the long-run support of any product more viable.  There will 
always be a short-cut, but fix the problem, and you won't need them.

If you had a heart-wound, would you like a big band-aid(tm), or someone to 
sew you up permanently?

Ian

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback


> Steve:
>
> It's not that I condemn asking for such modifications; I simply do not see
> their necessity in view of the fact that there are easy work-arounds. To 
> me,
> wearing ear-buds has pretty-much solved any awkwardness entering numbers
> etc.I will admit, however, to being much more sympathetic totrue
> accessibility issues as opposed to having "nice-to-have" requests.
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:33 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>
> Wow, Mike, I didn't see this coming at all.  I get the impression that if 
> we
> were talking about Window-Eyes or JAWS, that neither you or Jim would have 
> a
> problem with us asking them to make changes for us, but since Apple has
> taken on this responsibility, we've lost all right to ask for anything 
> that
> a sighted person doesn't have.  Apple is now a mainstream manufacturer and
> an assistive technology producer, so I don't understand the reasoning that
> asking for something is a betrayal of our philosophy.
> Frankly, these are important and complicated issues, and we have to get an
> understanding of what they involve and have a somewhat uniform approach, 
> so
> I am very interested in your take on this.  I didn't think I was going out
> on a limb at all in my last note and am both surprised and concerned that
> you think I did.  By the way, how is the mute button any easier for a
> sighted person to press?  My comment that I wish I had a mute button to me
> seems reasonable for anyone to ask, not just a blind person, but I am 
> truly
> not going to mount a campaign to have it done.  <smile>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:07:37 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>
>>Steve:
>
>>There *is*  a Mute button: once a call has been connected, find the
>>Hide Keypad button; then flick left until you find the Mute Button.
>>Double-tap it; then double-tap back where the Hide Keypad button was (I
>>think it now says Show Keypad) and the keypad is again visible. Yes,
>>this is a bit more cumbersome than a sighted person must go through but
>>when did we ever guarantee that blindness *wasn't* a nuisance?
>
>>Mike
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>Jacobson
>>Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:35 AM
>>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>
>>Kevin,
>
>>Interestingly, I played around with this some and found that a
>>bluetooth keyboard can select and push keypad buttons by navigating to
>>them with the arrow keys.  This is probably still too slow for long
>>strings of numbers but can work more efficiently in some cases than
>>using the touch keypad.  I also found that the numbers on a bluetooth
>>keyboard can be used to enter a number before dialing, and even to
>>enter the digits of one's pass code.  As a programmer, I can accept
>>that the keypad that is visible after a call is complete may be
>>different that that displayed before and during a call even if it looks
>>similarly, but this isn't a logical assumption for a user to make.
>
>>Another aspect of this that I've seen that can cause difficulty is that
>>some systems are geared to accept numbers or voice input such as
>>BusLine here in the Twin Cities with which you are likely familiar.
>>Even if the menu options don't time out as such, slow entry causes that
>>system to try to interpret background sounds.  Muting the microphone
>>would probably help this situation, some.
>>I suspect that you are right that the inputting of numbers in those
>>situations from a keyboard is not something that has been disabled by
>>design.  Where I also agree with Jim is that we sometimes react quickly
>>to a problem without necessarily understanding the entire problem.
>>However, I also completely understand the frustration of some, and I
>>think we have to realize that while Apple has shown us that using a
>>touch device is more than just possible, there are aspects of this that we
> don't fully understand yet.
>>It is my belief, for example, perhaps founded more on observation than
>>real scientific fact, that since we are going to depend some on our
>>memory of where buttons and controls are to gain efficiency, those of
>>us who are lucky enough to have a good sense of spacial relationships
>>are going to do better than those who have less of that ability.  For a
>>sighted user, spacial relationships are not an issue since they are
>>locating buttons visually and touching them.  Therefore, the sighted
>>person who finds reading maps to be frustrating because they have a
>>poor sense of spacial relationships will not have a problem with using
>>a touch screen, while a blind person with that same lack of ability
>>will have more trouble navigating a touch screen efficiently.
>
>>I also find that an earphone is an essential tool.  Again, going back
>>to Busline, I depend upon being able to hear what is being spoken as a
>>cue that my input has been received.  For example, entering a response
>>before the system has finished the menu causes it to stop reading.
>>When holding the phone so that buttons are seen visually, one cannot
>>hear responses as easily, but of course, placing the phone near one's
>>ear disables the touch screen as it has to.  My thought was that the
>>answer is to use an earphone that does not have a microphone for such
>>purposes.  The iPhone is too smart for that, though, as it seems to
>>know when one uses regular stereo earphones without a microphone and it
>>leaves its internal microphone enabled, so I still have trouble with
>>slow responses on the keypad causing the system to which I am connected
>>to try to process audio input.  I miss having a simple "mute"
>>button.
>
>>If we, as people with a technical background, are able to adequately
>>explain that a given feature is not a simple thing to implement,
>>thereby causing consumers to approach a developer or manufacturer more
>>reasonably, we should by all means do that.
>>However, I don't think it is our job to tell consumers that something
>>can't be done easily when we don't really know how easily it could be
>>accomplished.  I am very glad that I can do so much more with my iPhone
>>than I could do with the first couple of cellphones I owned.  However,
>>I find it frustrating that each of the last three phones I have used
>>has made checking my work voicemail where I have to enter a 6-digit ID a
> slower process.
>
>>Best regards,
>
>>Steve Jacobson
>
>>On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:41:15 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>
>>>SInce there is an edit field where numbers are displayed the change
>>>could probably be made fairly easy to support number entry
>>from the BlueTooth keyboard.
>>>I think the larger issue which would require programming is that the
>>>user interface for the keyboard is tied to the same
>>mechanism that permits the on screen keyboard to be visible or hidden
>>in tandem with the BLueTooth keyboard.
>>>Thus Apple may not be considering this because the keypad is totally
>>different than the keyboard mode.
>
>>>I find menu options to be quite straight forward and even short pin
>>>numbers
>>or passwords up to say 7 numbers in length.
>>>I do find that longer fields such as entering a meeting i.d., for a
>>>service such as "go to meeting" which may have 12 to 15
>>digits can time out by the time I get that done.
>>>I definitely believe that using a headset or earphone helps especially
>>>in
>>noisier environments.
>>>-Kevin
>
>>>On Aug 28, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Steve Jacobson"
>>><steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>wrote:
>
>>>> Jim,
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is, I'm not sure that any of us would say we can dial as
>>>> quickly with the touch keypad with voiceOver as one can
>>visually.  However, I'm not sure the answer is as simple as allowing a
>>bluetooth
>>>> keyboard during phone calls, either.  I'd really like to know
>>>> whether there is a reason that this isn't permitted as there
>>might be a good one.  Be that as it may, though, I am bothered a little
>>if you feel that we
>>>> don't have the right to ask for a feature that might be useful to us
>>>> simply as customers.  To me, to make a case that this is
>>an accessibility issue might be stretching it, but we are now
>>customers, and with my
>>>> great big two months of experience with an iPhone under my belt, I
>>>> do find that interacting with places that require
>>significant data entry using the numeric keypad to be difficult at
>>times.  I am continuing to get
>>>> better, though.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 09:25:29 -0700, Barcore wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey Susie,
>>>>
>>>>> Can you explain how this is impacting blind people specifically?
>>>>> Why are we not able to simply use the numbers on the on
>>screen keyboard With a pair of headphones? I understand that if you
>>have a
>>>> Bluetooth keyboard, it would be more convenient to use those numbers.
>>>> However, is this any different than it would be for
>>sighted folks?
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 28, 2013, at 7:35 AM, "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
>><Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Listers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know this might be considered off topic, but it is important.
>>>>>> Apple
>>needs to hear from us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: IDevices [mailto:idevices-bounces at gatewayfortheblind.com] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of David G. Carlson
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:24 AM
>>>>>> To: Denny at GatewayForTheBlind.Com; IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Done. Agree completely that using the on screen keypad is often
>>>>>> not fast enough to satisfy the prompt processor. It's very
>>frustrating.
>>>>>> David G. Carlson
>>>>>> Marketing / Sales Engineer
>>>>>> RF Timing and Synchronization
>>>>>> dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net<mailto:dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Denny Huff<mailto:denny at gatewayfortheblind.com>
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>> IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.
>>>>>> Com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:24 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               If you use Voiceover and have ever tried to use the
>>>>>> numbers on your bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call,
>>you have found that it doesn't work.  This is a problem that Apple has
>>not
>>>> addressed and although the engineers have been made aware of the
>>>> problem,
>>it still hasn't been resolved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               It is very difficult to enter a string of numbers on
>>>>>> the IPhone in the amount of time allotted for many of the
>>services we may call.  IE: banking service, ordering products with a
>>credit card, etc.  For
>>>> those that use a bluetooth keyboard this process would be much
>>>> simpler if
>>only we could use the numbers on the keyboard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               In order for this problem to be addressed and
>>>>>> resolved in a timely manner, Apple needs to hear from us.  The
>>more people that send them feedback on this problem the more likely the
>>engineers will
>>>> take it seriously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>               This is what you can do.  Follow one of the links
>>>>>> below and let them know that you would like to see this
>>problem be corrected.  Let them know that you should be able to use
>>Voiceover and the
>>>> numbers on a bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call.  Be courteous
>>>> when making your complaint but also let them know how much
>>this affects you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are the links you can go to to submit your feedback to Apple;
>>>>>> For the IPhone:
>>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/iphone.html
>>>>>> For the IPad:
>>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipad.html
>>>>>> All other devices and IOS apps:
>>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> _
>>>>>> Denny Huff
>>>>>> Gateway For the Blind LLC.
>>>>>> PO Box 515
>>>>>> St. Clair, MO  63077
>>>>>> Phone: (636) 262-1383
>>>>>> FAX: (314) 558-0298
>>>>>> WWW.GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have questions about that IPhone, IPad or IPod Touch?
>>>>>> Join the IDevices list serve and get answers to your questions and
>>>>>> find
>>out tips and tricks about using those devices.
>>>>>> To join send an email message to:
>>>>>> IDevices-Join at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices-Join at GatewayF
>>>>>> o
>>>>>> rTheBlind.Com>
>>>>>>
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