[nfbcs] project tracking software

Mon May 13 17:21:18 UTC 2013

John,

You say it doesn't have to be a legal issue, but then ask if it would
be wrong for me to be in favor of laws requiring accessibility if I
weren't blind.  I think this defines it pretty clearly as a legal
issue.

When our society writes laws to help the disadvantaged it must strike
a balance between how much we're helping the disadvantaged again how
much we're hurting the advantaged.  In other words, how much effort is
involved in making sure that a piece of software is accessible that
could be spent adding new features?  We demand that software be
accessible to us at the expense of new features for everyone else.

The DOL law suit is a different thing entirely though.  Section 504
demands that if the federal government is going to buy from you, then
you need to make your products accessible.  It's the price you pay to
be a government vendor or contractor.   However, both sides of been
refusing to play by the rules and it's time for that to stop!

Jim

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:45:33AM -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
> 
> 
> But it doesn't have to come down to just a legal issue. Think of it this
> way, would it be wrong for you to be in favor of laws requiring
> accessibility if you weren't blind?  Do you have any qualms about demanding
> that old people are treated well in nursing homes? There is nothing wrong
> with insisting that society write laws that help those who are
> disadvantaged. In fact, it's wrong to sit by and watch people be left
> behind. If anything, you have an ethical obligation to demand accessibility,
> not so much for yourself, but for all those other blind people struggling to
> make it in our society.
> 
> 
> 
> On 05/12/13 17:57, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO wrote:
> >Hi Everyone,
> >
> >I thought long and hard about all this, but since the law was passed it should mean something. I finally decided to put my money where my mouth is (sort of speak). I certainly hope I can work as long as I want to. I am uncomfortable.
> >
> >Susie
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> >Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 5:23 PM
> >To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
> >
> >Actually, there's an unspoken aspect to all this that most of us do not even
> >dare to admit to ourselves: that is, while we want "equal access" --
> >whatever that is -- and believe that "the law" should be enough to guarantee
> >it, what gives us, a small minority, the right to dictate to the majority
> >(most workers) what software they can use? It puts us in an awkward position
> >when great emphasis is placed these days upon "team play" etc. to say that
> >most of the team can't use certain software because we can't access it. Of
> >course this begs the larger question as to whether such inaccessible
> >software should exist or not. But trying to mandate accessibility in an
> >absolute sense amounts to fixing what software development techniques and
> >tools can and cannot be used -- an effort that is, in the long run, doomed
> >to fail; one cannot stop innovation and by its very definition,
> >screen-reader manufacturers cannot adjust to innovations they don't know
> >about or that haven't been developed yet.
> >
> >This doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight for access as the present lawsuit
> >does; we have no choice if we don't want to be returned to the
> >rocking-chair. But until someone develops Mr. Data of STNG, we are going to
> >be faced with that unspoken dilemma of which I write and it's not an easy
> >thing to figure out how to get around it.
> >
> >Mike Freeman
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
> >Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:13 AM
> >To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
> >
> >Tracy,
> >
> >Yeah, and I keep hearing these sorts of stories, where the laws are just
> >flat out not followed.
> >
> >So I'm really interested in how the lawsuit Mike F. mentioned in an
> >earlier post will come out after the long slog... It's depressing in a
> >way, though I guess not all that surprising, that it's going to take at
> >least as much hard work and effort to get teeth put in those laws as it
> >was to get the laws in the first place... Sigh. Then again, I remember
> >when those laws were being developed and then finally passed back in the
> >day. Since I knew I would be blind sooner or later, I paid attention.
> >But, of course, I was not officially a disabled person then, so I got to
> >hear the abled folks talk about the horrible imposition in the free way
> >bigots talk when they assume you are one of Them... From what I recall
> >of what of that was on my limited radar at the time, the reason the laws
> >ended up toothless was that that was the only way they could be passed
> >in the first place. Of course, I know a lot of you here had real skin in
> >that game, so thanks! I've benefitted from your hard work.
> >
> >But more remains now, for sure, to get penalties for violators. It's
> >just unfortunate that it takes people who would rather be working for a
> >living to have to take time out of their lives for lawsuits instead.
> >
> >Tami
> >
> >On 05/11/2013 05:48 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> >>I know this is a ridiculous thing to say, but there is a law requiring
> >>the government to only purchase accessible software, right?  Yet they're
> >>using JIRA, which Susie says is inaccessible.  Thus, they're breaking
> >>the law.  I just thought it had to be said.
> >>Tracy
> >>
> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City,
> >>MO" <Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov>
> >>To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >>Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 5:57 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
> >>
> >>
> >>>The project lead sometimes has to use HP Quallity Center because the
> >>>Testing and Certification Office is part of our team. We submit our
> >>>software to them for their review before it goes to production. It
> >>>would be handy if I could use it, but more handy if I could use JIRA.
> >>>
> >>>Susie
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> >>>Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 2:24 PM
> >>>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
> >>>
> >>>Susie,
> >>>
> >>>That is interesting that the government is using HP Quality Center.  I
> >>>had trouble using it but it turned out I didn't have to so I did not
> >>>pursue it.  However, I thought it was more for developing and
> >>>executing test cases, although maybe that is just one use.
> >>>Whether it helps or not, if I have to use it, knowing it is used by
> >>>the government could give me more of a lever to get them to fix those
> >>>things that don't appear to be accessible.  Unfortunately, I think
> >>>some of the problem I have seen with HPQC may have to do with screen
> >>>readers not keeping up as well as they might with modern web approaches.
> >>>
> >>>Best regards,
> >>>
> >>>Steve Jacobson
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Fri, 10 May 2013 13:59:16 +0000, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City,
> >>>MO wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Good moring Everyone,
> >>>
> >>>>There are two different project and bug tracking programs used at USDA.
> >>>>They are JIRA which appears not to be accessible and HP
> >>>Quallity Center which I am not forced to use. Do any of you
> >>>successfully use project tracking software? I wish all I had to do in
> >>>my job was code (grin).
> >>>
> >>>>Susie Stanzel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
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> 
> -- 
> ---
> John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu
> 
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