[nfbcs] project tracking software

Mon May 13 17:49:10 UTC 2013

Well, while that may have been poorly worded, it's not really to the 
point. I'm trying to say that I'm makeing an ethical point, not a legal 
one.

On 05/13/13 12:21, Jim Barbour wrote:
> John,
>
> You say it doesn't have to be a legal issue, but then ask if it would
> be wrong for me to be in favor of laws requiring accessibility if I
> weren't blind.  I think this defines it pretty clearly as a legal
> issue.
>
> When our society writes laws to help the disadvantaged it must strike
> a balance between how much we're helping the disadvantaged again how
> much we're hurting the advantaged.  In other words, how much effort is
> involved in making sure that a piece of software is accessible that
> could be spent adding new features?  We demand that software be
> accessible to us at the expense of new features for everyone else.
>
> The DOL law suit is a different thing entirely though.  Section 504
> demands that if the federal government is going to buy from you, then
> you need to make your products accessible.  It's the price you pay to
> be a government vendor or contractor.   However, both sides of been
> refusing to play by the rules and it's time for that to stop!
>
> Jim
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:45:33AM -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>
>> But it doesn't have to come down to just a legal issue. Think of it this
>> way, would it be wrong for you to be in favor of laws requiring
>> accessibility if you weren't blind?  Do you have any qualms about demanding
>> that old people are treated well in nursing homes? There is nothing wrong
>> with insisting that society write laws that help those who are
>> disadvantaged. In fact, it's wrong to sit by and watch people be left
>> behind. If anything, you have an ethical obligation to demand accessibility,
>> not so much for yourself, but for all those other blind people struggling to
>> make it in our society.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05/12/13 17:57, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO wrote:
>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>
>>> I thought long and hard about all this, but since the law was passed it should mean something. I finally decided to put my money where my mouth is (sort of speak). I certainly hope I can work as long as I want to. I am uncomfortable.
>>>
>>> Susie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 5:23 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
>>>
>>> Actually, there's an unspoken aspect to all this that most of us do not even
>>> dare to admit to ourselves: that is, while we want "equal access" --
>>> whatever that is -- and believe that "the law" should be enough to guarantee
>>> it, what gives us, a small minority, the right to dictate to the majority
>>> (most workers) what software they can use? It puts us in an awkward position
>>> when great emphasis is placed these days upon "team play" etc. to say that
>>> most of the team can't use certain software because we can't access it. Of
>>> course this begs the larger question as to whether such inaccessible
>>> software should exist or not. But trying to mandate accessibility in an
>>> absolute sense amounts to fixing what software development techniques and
>>> tools can and cannot be used -- an effort that is, in the long run, doomed
>>> to fail; one cannot stop innovation and by its very definition,
>>> screen-reader manufacturers cannot adjust to innovations they don't know
>>> about or that haven't been developed yet.
>>>
>>> This doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight for access as the present lawsuit
>>> does; we have no choice if we don't want to be returned to the
>>> rocking-chair. But until someone develops Mr. Data of STNG, we are going to
>>> be faced with that unspoken dilemma of which I write and it's not an easy
>>> thing to figure out how to get around it.
>>>
>>> Mike Freeman
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:13 AM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
>>>
>>> Tracy,
>>>
>>> Yeah, and I keep hearing these sorts of stories, where the laws are just
>>> flat out not followed.
>>>
>>> So I'm really interested in how the lawsuit Mike F. mentioned in an
>>> earlier post will come out after the long slog... It's depressing in a
>>> way, though I guess not all that surprising, that it's going to take at
>>> least as much hard work and effort to get teeth put in those laws as it
>>> was to get the laws in the first place... Sigh. Then again, I remember
>>> when those laws were being developed and then finally passed back in the
>>> day. Since I knew I would be blind sooner or later, I paid attention.
>>> But, of course, I was not officially a disabled person then, so I got to
>>> hear the abled folks talk about the horrible imposition in the free way
>>> bigots talk when they assume you are one of Them... From what I recall
>>> of what of that was on my limited radar at the time, the reason the laws
>>> ended up toothless was that that was the only way they could be passed
>>> in the first place. Of course, I know a lot of you here had real skin in
>>> that game, so thanks! I've benefitted from your hard work.
>>>
>>> But more remains now, for sure, to get penalties for violators. It's
>>> just unfortunate that it takes people who would rather be working for a
>>> living to have to take time out of their lives for lawsuits instead.
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 05/11/2013 05:48 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>>> I know this is a ridiculous thing to say, but there is a law requiring
>>>> the government to only purchase accessible software, right?  Yet they're
>>>> using JIRA, which Susie says is inaccessible.  Thus, they're breaking
>>>> the law.  I just thought it had to be said.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City,
>>>> MO" <Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov>
>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 5:57 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The project lead sometimes has to use HP Quallity Center because the
>>>>> Testing and Certification Office is part of our team. We submit our
>>>>> software to them for their review before it goes to production. It
>>>>> would be handy if I could use it, but more handy if I could use JIRA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Susie
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 2:24 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
>>>>>
>>>>> Susie,
>>>>>
>>>>> That is interesting that the government is using HP Quality Center.  I
>>>>> had trouble using it but it turned out I didn't have to so I did not
>>>>> pursue it.  However, I thought it was more for developing and
>>>>> executing test cases, although maybe that is just one use.
>>>>> Whether it helps or not, if I have to use it, knowing it is used by
>>>>> the government could give me more of a lever to get them to fix those
>>>>> things that don't appear to be accessible.  Unfortunately, I think
>>>>> some of the problem I have seen with HPQC may have to do with screen
>>>>> readers not keeping up as well as they might with modern web approaches.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 10 May 2013 13:59:16 +0000, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City,
>>>>> MO wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Good moring Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are two different project and bug tracking programs used at USDA.
>>>>>> They are JIRA which appears not to be accessible and HP
>>>>> Quallity Center which I am not forced to use. Do any of you
>>>>> successfully use project tracking software? I wish all I had to do in
>>>>> my job was code (grin).
>>>>>
>>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA
>>>>>> solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized
>>>>> interception of this message or the use or disclosure of the
>>>>> information it contains may violate the law and subject the violator
>>>>> to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you have received this
>>>>> message in error, please notify the sender and delete the email
>>>>> immediately.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vis
>>>>>> i.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/susan.stanzel%40kcc.usda.
>>> gov
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/susan.stanzel%40kcc.usda.gov
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>

-- 
---
John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu