[nfbcs] Using Apple Photo Stream on Windows with JAWS or NVDA

Nicole Torcolini ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Fri Jan 17 03:52:40 UTC 2014 

    I know that this thread has kind of died down, so I am sorry for not
writing sooner, but I still would like to add my two cents.

            This thread actually touched several topics. In regards to
Chrome itself, yes, it is a web browser, so it should work with third party
screen readers. I am not trying to make excuses for it not working with
third party screen readers, but implementing support for third party screen
readers is probably easier said than done, especially when the manufacturers
don't give a lot of information about how they work.

    As for Chromevox, I think that a couple of things need to be considered
before getting upset about Chromevox working best with Google apps. There is
a set of standard, called ARIA, which defines a way for information to be
passed to screen readers. However, some screen readers do not fully or
correctly implement this standard. For example, some websites work better
with NVDA and Firefox than JAWS and Internet Explorer because NVDA has a
better implementation of ARIA. So perhaps the problem is more that the
screen reader manufacturers need to make the screen readers work better.
Part of why this problem exists can be explained by the fact that some
screen readers first came about when websites were mostly static and
primarily contained information. Now, websites are becoming more and more
dynamic, and the things that worked on static websites often don't work very
well on dynamic websites.

    If Chromevox implements ARIA in a way different from other screen
readers, but it actually works better, then perhaps, rather than thinking of
it breaking the rules, it might be considered setting new standards. Perhaps
the companies that make screen readers that were originally intended
primarily for use with desktop apps might benefit from working more closely
with companies that work on internet products.

    Finally, as for cross operating system programs, I actually don't
consider Chrome to be a good example. Yes, it comes with its own built in
accessibility, but it works on the internet, and, at least on Windows,
getting a web browser to work with a screen reader is quite different from
getting a regular program to work with a screen reader. I would think that
there would be enough documentation and resources about designing accessible
applications on the various operating systems that there is no excuse for
making an application that is not accessible just because it is not the one
that your company sells. The accessibility of Windows programs that are not
made by Microsoft varies a lot, but there are certainly those that are more
accessible than iTunes and other Apple software. Are the companies not
letting each other have access to the resources, or are the companies just
not putting the effort into it because it is not their operating system?

            Another way to solve this problem would to have some sort of
environment that runs on top of the operating system that comes with its own
screen reader and can use the same software regardless of operating system.
In some ways, this already exists with certain programming languages such as
Java. However, the place where this falls short is when the platform does
not work with the screen readers available on the different operating
system. Perhaps we need "operating System Gap", the operating system version
of Phone Gap. Phone Gap is a kit for developing software for mobile devices.
The program is built using HTML, and then exported to Android, IOS, or
Blackberry. You had to have the software for the installation, such as XCode
for iPhone or Eclipse for Android, but it was similar regardless of what you
used. I never tried the apps that it produced for Android, but the iPhone
ones were accessible, at least the ones that I built.

 

Nicole



-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2014 8:53 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Using Apple Photo Stream on Windows with JAWS or NVDA

It depends on the slice and dice.

First of all, this discussion started with questions about multi-platform
support. In this case for ChromeVox the platform support is broad, i.e.,
Mac, Windows, Linux, ChromeOS and perhaps android.
In this case by employing a common extension for accessibility, the majority
of the developer's work is only required to be done once.

It is not to state that Google Chrome cannot be used by the native or third
party screen readers, rather that ChromeVox provides more consistency across
the platforms, a deeper integration than is possible by using the external
screen readers...
The chicken has flown the coup, which means that it is not possible to
encompass all the accessibility problems in a screen reader.
Unless we forge a deeper binding with the applications accessibility will
continue to be mediocre and fall further and further behind.
At some level framework screen readers, i.d., deep accessibility layers
imbedded in a common development framework can work witnessed by IOS, OS
X... Windows never started with a deep accessibility framework and we now
see the fruits of that disaster in very mediocre and stagnant support for
accessibility when viewed across the application base!
Regarding learning multiple systems, even in ChromeVox there are multiple
keymappings available thus if there was more focus on the operational
interface and defining commonalities so that multiple products use the same
interface approach there would not be a training issue once it is learned.
I would caution about stagnating the interface however. Recall that it was
not that long ago that BLind people were told by established accessibility
companies and independent experts that touch screens were out of reach.
Thank heavens, for those who ignored the commonly held views and imagined
that a touch interface would be just another problem to solve. For those who
would advocate that everything look exactly like the JAWS interface, I would
caution that this approach  will only enhance the stagnation and the
experience of falling behind.
If we continue to push the accessibility responsibility to a third party
screen reader creator we will never achieve anything beyond mediocre
stagnation.


-Kevin


On Jan 4, 2014, at 9:01 PM, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:

> Kevin,
>
> I think, though, that you are looking at a very specific solution for a
specific problem.  How do you see the Google approach being applied
generally? 
> There has to be a middleground between requiring software developers
> to conform to what screen readers have implemented and software
> developers going completely their own way.  I think Chromevox can play
> an important role as a proof of concept of how modern web pages can be
> handled, but I am not convinced that it is a blueprint to solve our
> accessibility problems.  At the very least, and I think this would be
> inadequate, there would need to be some kind of protocol to have multiple
solutions coexist within an operating system.  If one is going to do one
thing with their computer such as browsing, this won't matter.  If one is in
an environment where they do numerous activities at once, though, which is
the common situation, separate accessibility solutions running
simultaneously are problematic at best, and that doesn't even address the
added training to learn separate screen reader interfaces on top of separate
software.  I am curious how you would see this working if it were scaled up.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 15:10:11 -0600, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>
>> ChromeVox has built-in navigation controls and accessibility i.e.,
>> speech and Braille output, that permit one to access the app without
>> the need for a
> separate screen reader.
>> So neither Window Eyes, Voiceover,  or JAWS is required.
>> This is not a web site context it is an accessibility context for the app
itself i.e., Google Chrome.
>
>> -Kevin
>
>> On Jan 4, 2014, at 2:55 PM, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>
>>> If one were to employ your reasoning throughout the software
>>> industry, then window-eyes users would have no reason to complain if
>>> software and web site developers developed their sites for JAWS. I'm
>>> afraid that won't fly in the blind user community.
>>>
>>> Mike Freeman
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
>>> Fjelsted
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2014 8:55 AM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Using Apple Photo Stream on Windows with JAWS
>>> or NVDA
>>>
>>> I can use Chromevox across multiple platforms i.e., it is accessible.
>>> However it is accessible through the implementation of it's own
>>> accessibility platform which actually improves consistency and
>>> supportability.  It is totally acceptable. to facilitate a common
>>> accessibility interface in this manner. In other words, I don't
>>> think that there should be a mandate that products be accessible via
>>> JAWS for the instance of  the windows platform, If they are indeed
>>> accessible through another method such as ChromeVox supports.
>>>
>>> -Kevin
>>>
>>> On Jan 4, 2014, at 12:10 AM, Nicole Torcolini
>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't quite understand what you mean about Chromevox.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
>>>> Fjelsted
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 03, 2014 3:51 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [ ] Using Apple Photo Stream on Windows with JAWS or
>>>> NVDA
>>>>
>>>> Interesting question about accessibility on a second platform.
>>>> Microsoft word is not at accessible on the Mac in fact none of the
>>>> office products are.
>>>> In the case of Microsoft office for windows, would there be any
>>>> accessibility without a third party screen reader since Microsoft
>>>> seems to get by being off the hook for supporting screen reading
>>>> functions beyond
>>> the
>>>> Navigator bare bones?
>>>>
>>>> iTunes is only accessible on windows because of outside pressures
>>>> litigiously or otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> Chromevox is accessible on multiple platforms only because it made
>>>> it's
>>> own
>>>> sub platform. :) We should be demanding that an app be accessible
>>>> on any platform it is built for.
>>>>
>>>> -Kevin
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 3, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone had any luck with managing the Apple photo stream on
>>>>> Windows using JAWS or NVDA? It shows up in two places, which are
>>>>> the actual location and some sort of shortcut under My Computer.
>>>>> The one under My Computer is completely inaccessible. The actual
>>>>> location works like a regular folder; however, moving the files
>>>>> around there has no effect on the files that get synced to my
>>>>> iPhone, so I am guessing that there is something magical about the not
accessible one.
>>>>> Any suggestions? Also, to that end, out of curiosity, if a company
>>>>> makes a product that runs on an operating system besides their
>>>>> own, should they have to make it work with the accessibility
>>>>> features of that
>>>> operating system?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicole
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