[nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO

Sat Feb 20 17:41:56 UTC 2016

I'm not sure I'm following all of these different points. For my part, 
if MS were to come out with a fully functional screen reader then I'm 
not sure 3rd party screen readers would have enough of a market left and 
would therefore fall by the way side. Since I don't want to work in an 
MS only world this gives me pause.

I'm not convinced that if MS came up with a fully functional screen 
reader that they would then be interested in following accessibility 
standards. There answer could be if you want an accessible solution hen 
use MS products and Narrator. MS has definitely taken this attitude with 
open standards in the past.

I'm also not sure that if they gave their screen reader access to 
internal API's and the like that they would then give 3rd party screen 
readers or applications access to the same API's. They may not do this 
for security reasons or to give their own products an edge in 
performance or look and feel. Microsoft has done this in the past and 
Apple currently does this.

3rd party applications also aren't going to be interested in just 
following MS's lead in look and feel. What market would there be for 
Lotus Notes, Libre Office and the like if they could only end up looking 
like Microsoft Office? This is why IBM's Common User Access (CUA) 
standards never caught on in the 90's. Not only that, but this would 
stifle creativity in interface design and new accessibility technologies 
and standards to keep up with new interface models. This could 
ultimately set back access to computers by the blind since who knows 
what some smart engineer out there might come up with to change the 
whole interface to messaging software?

The world might be better served if MS turned Narrator into a real full 
functional super screen reader, Apple certainly did a good job with 
this, but in at least my opinion, this isn't without it's own set of 
pitfalls and may not lead to the accessibility paradise some people 
think would result.

On 20/02/16 11:23, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs wrote:
> You do not get it. It is not about crashing and what not. Suppose that
> Microsoft made narrator into a fully functioning screen reader and went on
> to give it screen reader super powers that other screen readers did not
> have. Then, they started making their products such that they worked only
> with narrator and told third party vendors that it was okay to do the same.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vincent Martin [mailto:vincent.martin at gatech.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 8:59 AM
> To: 'Nicole Torcolini'
> Subject: RE: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO
>
>> But who would enforce that the screen reader follows those guide lines?
> When there is an internal, free screen reader, people test with it and,
> often, only it. So, when their >product does not work with other screen
> readers, the people who tested with the free, built in screen reader often
> do not want to fix the problems with the other screen >readers, even if the
> other screen readers work right and the internal screen reader works wrong.
> And that still is under the category of a Human Systems Integration problem.
> I pretty much use every screenreader in Windows, Linux, and also have a
> Chromebook and a MAC.  I can make most of them crash in specific situations
> and know which application I can easily have success by scripting or
> modifying that particular screen Rader.  Having an internal screen reader in
> a system gives me more flexibility to do my own work and also to work with
> others if I have to.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Martin
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 6:37 AM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Cc: Vincent Martin
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO
>
> Jus adding any screen reading program to the Windows environment that is not
> a part of the operating system then makes it a Human Integrated Systems
> problem, which is not a computer hardware or software problem.  Microsoft
> actually makes approximately 2,500 different products and all are under the
> requirement to become somewhat accessible.  Hopefully, by the end of this
> year the internal developers will be finally using the same IDE, which will
> make accessible design easier between different departments.  A built-in
> screen reading program that followed certain guidelines would make it much
> easier for anyone to make their third-party software and hardware play much
> nicer with Microsoft products.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher
> Chaltain via nfbcs
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 11:25 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO
>
> And create another set of problems. I'm not one who wants to use MS products
> for everything, and I just can't imagine an MS screen reader is going to
> make working with Firefox, Thunderbird, Chrome, Open Office, and so on a
> priority along with working with MS products like Edge, Windows Live Mail,
> MS Office and so on. VoiceOver is great if you want to use Apple products
> exclusively, and you're probably right, that is the way MS should go, but at
> least in my opinion, it's not without it's own set of issues.
>
> On 19/02/16 21:30, Vincent Martin via nfbcs wrote:
>> It sure would solve a lot of problems.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg
>> Kearney via nfbcs
>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 10:16 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Greg Kearney <gkearney at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new
>> CAO
>>
>> Boy that's an issue loaded with politics if ever there was one
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Greg Kearney
>>
>>> On Feb 19, 2016, at 5:55 PM, Amanda Lacy via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Wondering why no one has said the obvious: Windows needs a
>>> fully-functional built-in screen reader.
>>>
>>>> On 2/19/16, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Some people will say that this is not accessibility, but I very much
>>>> think that it is. Have an option to bring back the old menubar
>>>> instead of that stupid ribbon. I basically have to memorize all of
>>>> the keystrokes from office 2003 in order to get anything done
>>>> because the stuff on the ribbon is iimpossible to find, has
>>>> keystrokes that are four, five, or six steps long, and, in some
>>>> cases,
> do not work.
>>>> Some of the old shortcut keys do not work anymore, like pressing alt
>>>> p in Outlook to get to the options for a message. If you look hard
>>>> enough, you can get back to the old dialogs for different stuff,
>>>> like page layout in Word or message options in Outlook, but it takes
>>>> ten million steps to get there. Okay, exaggerating, but that is what
>>>> it seems
>> like.
>>>>      There is another problem with Internet Explorer. I do not know
>>>> if it has been fixed in the new browser. Screen readers often send
>>>> an accessibility event instead of passing through the keystroke of
>>>> enter or space. When this happens, the browser decides how to handle it.
>>>> All other browsers, afaik, use mouse down, mouse up, click as the
>>>> events that the browser fires for an accessibility event, but
>>>> Internet Explorer only uses click. Many web companies do not know
>>>> this and make controls that listen on mouse up, so they are not
>>>> accessible with screen readers and Internet Explorer.
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jeanine
>>>> Lineback via nfbcs
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 11:09 AM
>>>> To: Doug Lee
>>>> Cc: Jeanine Lineback; List for teachers and trainers of adaptive
>>>> technology; Jeanine Lineback via nfbcs
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new
>>>> CAO
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Doug,
>>>> Regarding the Link 2013 in the Skype for business issues with jaws
>>>> and other screen readers like NVDA I have also reported these
>>>> problems. :-) They are a major issue especially the notifications
>>>> taking over from other applications. Definitely a productivity
>>>> downer. Frown
>>>>
>>>> Dictated on an iPhone.
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 19, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Doug Lee <dgl at dlee.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please pass this on, though Anne is well aware of this concern, and
>>>>> the fact that I've been harping about this for about nine months.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Two serious issues in Lync 2013 and Skype for Business 2016,
>>>>> highest
>>>> priority first:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Every incoming chat message fires a MenuOpened event and forces
>>>>> AT users to Alt+Tab twice in order to continue whatever they were
>>>>> doing before the message arrived. This is a very severe
>>>>> productivity killer, and this issue alone has forced me to
>>>>> recommend to large companies that they refrain from upgrading
>>>>> beyond Lync
>>>>> 2010 for users who are blind or use a screen reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that while I am aware that the delay in fixing this issue is
>>>>> due to difficulty deciding what system to use for incoming chat
>>>>> notifications, I urge that the menuOpened events be stopped
>>>>> immediately even if this results in no notification of an incoming
> chat.
>>>> Silent chat arrival is a problem but does not impair use of every
>>>> other application on the computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Frequently during an active voice call in Lync 2013 and Skype
>>>>> for Business 2016, the keyboard is taken over in such a way as to
>>>>> prevent many JAWS commands from working. Again, a user must Alt+Tab
>>>>> to rectify this situation. My very rough estimate is that this
>>>>> happens at least once
>>>> every 5-10 minutes, though my recollection of the time interval is
>>>> imprecise.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am forwarding this message to some members of my office
>>>>> accessibility team in case they have further thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 10:03:25AM -0600, NFBCS mailing list wrote:
>>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following message.  This also
>>>>> applies
>>>> to your own personal experience with Microsoft product, even though
>>>> the below email specifies serving students and adults.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeanine Lineback
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "McSorley, Jan" <jan.mcsorley at pearson.com>
>>>>>> Date: February 16, 2016 at 12:42:29 PM CST
>>>>>> To: Jeanine Kay Lineback <jeanine.lineback at gmail.com>, Edgar
>>>>>> Lozano <lozano.edgar94 at gmail.com>, Su Park <su.park98 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just got off a call with Anne Taylor who, as you know, used to
>>>>>> be the
>>>> Director of Access Technology at the National Federation of the
>>>> Blind.  She now works for Microsoft and her boss is Microsoft's new
>>>> Chief Accessibility Officer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anne asked me to compile a list of access barriers in Microsoft
>>>>>> products
>>>> that impede the work I am trying to accomplish at Pearson, but I
>>>> would like to take this opportunity to get additional feedback from
>>>> others in the field.  I would love to add your insights and opinions
>>>> on how Microsoft could help improve education, productivity, etc. of
>>>> people  with disabilities by making improvements in the
>>>> accessibility of
>> their products.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will be working on a list of ideas for Anne, but if you have any
>>>> thoughts or feedback on the following questions, I will be sure to
>>>> share your name(s) as contributors to the list:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Are there any access barriers to using Microsoft products that
>>>>>> make it
>>>> difficult for you to serve students or adults with disabilities.
>>>> For
>>>> example:
>>>>>> Word
>>>>>> PowerPoint
>>>>>> Excel
>>>>>> Windows Operating Systems
>>>>>> Windows Browsers
>>>>>> 2.  Is there anything you wish Microsoft products
>>>>>> would/could/should do
>>>> that they are not doing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.  In your opinion, what should Microsoft's accessibility
>>>>>> priorities be?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any help or input you could provide would be appreciated.  This is
>>>>>> a
>>>> unique opportunity to get ideas and requests up the chain at
>>>> Microsoft, so please don't underestimate the importance of your
> feedback.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please share with others in your network as you see fit.  I will
>>>>>> be
>>>> reviewing the list with Anne Taylor the week of March 22nd, so there
>>>> is time to reach out to others.
>>>>>> _________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For kids
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jan McSorley
>>>>>> Head of Accessibility
>>>>>> School Line of Business
>>>>>> Pearson Assessment Centre
>>>>>>
>>>>>> M: (512) 673-9569
>>>>>> E: jan.mcsorley at pearson.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pearson
>>>>>> Always Learning
>>>>>> Learn more at www.pearsonk12.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We put a man on the moon in the 1960's ... surely we can make
>>>>>> information
>>>> technology fully accessible to people with disabilities.  It can be
>>>> done ...
>>>> it must be done ... it will be done!
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/dgl%40dlee.org
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Doug Lee                 dgl at dlee.org
> http://www.dlee.org
>>>>> SSB BART Group           doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>>>> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>>>>> "I before E, except after C, or when sounded like A, as in neighbor
>>>>> and weigh, except for when weird foreign concierges seize neither
>>>>> leisure nor science from the height of society."
>>>>
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>>>> m
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>>>>
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> --
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
>
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-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail