[nfbcs] Fwd.: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO

Sat Feb 20 20:56:57 UTC 2016

Novell offers mono and mono-basic and drdos and could be involved in 
other projects.  The mono-basic and vbnc package you get when 
installing mono-basic make dot net programming possible on many more 
platforms than windows.

wrote:

> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 14:02:13
> From: Vincent Martin via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Vincent Martin <vincent.martin at gatech.edu>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fwd.: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO
> 
> This is a design and integration issue. The goal is to have access to the
> operating system and to the applications.  If the principles of universal
> design were more closely followed, this would be less of an issue anyway.
> Many things that any third party screen reader does, should be a part of the
> system.  I would love a super functioning  screen reader that really worked,
> but productivity and effectiveness would be greatly enhanced with the access
> as a part of the system as a self-voicing access feature.  Home Page Reader
> worked better on the Internet than any screen reader did, as it was a
> self-voicing browser and not a screen reader.
> Microsoft can't make their operating system only work with their screen
> reading system, as that is a violation of the Sherman Anti-trust Act.  Apple
> does not preclude anyone else from creating a screen reader for their
> platform, there just isn't anyone that thinks they will make enough money by
> doing so.  Novell is now called Micro focus and does anyone even know what
> they do?  When Microsoft added networking to their operating system, people
> did not get upset that Novell basically lost their business, they just
> pulled out more Ethernet cable off the roll and linked more machines
> together. There are some things that Microsoft could do to make their
> operating system even less vulnerable to hacking, viruses, and worms, but
> they are not legally allowed to do so.
> I have served on both sides of many legal debates concerning access or lack
> thereof.  Many times, the organization, company, or institution really has
> not followed the law, while other times, the issue is a training or even a
> Cognitive Load and Working Memory issue.  The clauses 'ease of use" and
> "reasonable accommodations" are debated all the times behind doors and that
> is how I get many companies to settle lawsuits out of court.  I also show
> them where they would win in or out of court, but they really did not do
> what they should have done.  My NDA's preclude me from saying too much about
> any case, but there are times when the company has been recommended to "pay
> off" the parties as they just screwed up.  I had a case about a year and a
> half ago, where the applications developed were accessible, but turned out
> to be not useable.  Instead of fixing the problem, which would  have cost
> over five million dollars, it was easier to give the employees involved
> $50,000 bonuses to be put into their 401k accounts and re-assign them to new
> jobs.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 12:24 PM
> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Nicole Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
> Subject: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO
>
> You do not get it. It is not about crashing and what not. Suppose that
> Microsoft made narrator into a fully functioning screen reader and went on
> to give it screen reader super powers that other screen readers did not
> have. Then, they started making their products such that they worked only
> with narrator and told third party vendors that it was okay to do the same.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vincent Martin [mailto:vincent.martin at gatech.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 8:59 AM
> To: 'Nicole Torcolini'
> Subject: RE: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO
>
>> But who would enforce that the screen reader follows those guide lines?
> When there is an internal, free screen reader, people test with it and,
> often, only it. So, when their >product does not work with other screen
> readers, the people who tested with the free, built in screen reader often
> do not want to fix the problems with the other screen >readers, even if the
> other screen readers work right and the internal screen reader works wrong.
> And that still is under the category of a Human Systems Integration problem.
> I pretty much use every screenreader in Windows, Linux, and also have a
> Chromebook and a MAC.  I can make most of them crash in specific situations
> and know which application I can easily have success by scripting or
> modifying that particular screen Rader.  Having an internal screen reader in
> a system gives me more flexibility to do my own work and also to work with
> others if I have to.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Martin
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 6:37 AM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Cc: Vincent Martin
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO
>
> Jus adding any screen reading program to the Windows environment that is not
> a part of the operating system then makes it a Human Integrated Systems
> problem, which is not a computer hardware or software problem.  Microsoft
> actually makes approximately 2,500 different products and all are under the
> requirement to become somewhat accessible.  Hopefully, by the end of this
> year the internal developers will be finally using the same IDE, which will
> make accessible design easier between different departments.  A built-in
> screen reading program that followed certain guidelines would make it much
> easier for anyone to make their third-party software and hardware play much
> nicer with Microsoft products.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher
> Chaltain via nfbcs
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 11:25 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO
>
> And create another set of problems. I'm not one who wants to use MS products
> for everything, and I just can't imagine an MS screen reader is going to
> make working with Firefox, Thunderbird, Chrome, Open Office, and so on a
> priority along with working with MS products like Edge, Windows Live Mail,
> MS Office and so on. VoiceOver is great if you want to use Apple products
> exclusively, and you're probably right, that is the way MS should go, but at
> least in my opinion, it's not without it's own set of issues.
>
> On 19/02/16 21:30, Vincent Martin via nfbcs wrote:
>> It sure would solve a lot of problems.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg
>> Kearney via nfbcs
>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 10:16 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Greg Kearney <gkearney at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new
>> CAO
>>
>> Boy that's an issue loaded with politics if ever there was one
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Greg Kearney
>>
>>> On Feb 19, 2016, at 5:55 PM, Amanda Lacy via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Wondering why no one has said the obvious: Windows needs a
>>> fully-functional built-in screen reader.
>>>
>>>> On 2/19/16, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Some people will say that this is not accessibility, but I very much
>>>> think that it is. Have an option to bring back the old menubar
>>>> instead of that stupid ribbon. I basically have to memorize all of
>>>> the keystrokes from office 2003 in order to get anything done
>>>> because the stuff on the ribbon is iimpossible to find, has
>>>> keystrokes that are four, five, or six steps long, and, in some
>>>> cases,
> do not work.
>>>> Some of the old shortcut keys do not work anymore, like pressing alt
>>>> p in Outlook to get to the options for a message. If you look hard
>>>> enough, you can get back to the old dialogs for different stuff,
>>>> like page layout in Word or message options in Outlook, but it takes
>>>> ten million steps to get there. Okay, exaggerating, but that is what
>>>> it seems
>> like.
>>>>     There is another problem with Internet Explorer. I do not know
>>>> if it has been fixed in the new browser. Screen readers often send
>>>> an accessibility event instead of passing through the keystroke of
>>>> enter or space. When this happens, the browser decides how to handle it.
>>>> All other browsers, afaik, use mouse down, mouse up, click as the
>>>> events that the browser fires for an accessibility event, but
>>>> Internet Explorer only uses click. Many web companies do not know
>>>> this and make controls that listen on mouse up, so they are not
>>>> accessible with screen readers and Internet Explorer.
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jeanine
>>>> Lineback via nfbcs
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 11:09 AM
>>>> To: Doug Lee
>>>> Cc: Jeanine Lineback; List for teachers and trainers of adaptive
>>>> technology; Jeanine Lineback via nfbcs
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fwd: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new
>>>> CAO
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Doug,
>>>> Regarding the Link 2013 in the Skype for business issues with jaws
>>>> and other screen readers like NVDA I have also reported these
>>>> problems. :-) They are a major issue especially the notifications
>>>> taking over from other applications. Definitely a productivity
>>>> downer. Frown
>>>>
>>>> Dictated on an iPhone.
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 19, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Doug Lee <dgl at dlee.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please pass this on, though Anne is well aware of this concern, and
>>>>> the fact that I've been harping about this for about nine months.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Two serious issues in Lync 2013 and Skype for Business 2016,
>>>>> highest
>>>> priority first:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Every incoming chat message fires a MenuOpened event and forces
>>>>> AT users to Alt+Tab twice in order to continue whatever they were
>>>>> doing before the message arrived. This is a very severe
>>>>> productivity killer, and this issue alone has forced me to
>>>>> recommend to large companies that they refrain from upgrading
>>>>> beyond Lync
>>>>> 2010 for users who are blind or use a screen reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that while I am aware that the delay in fixing this issue is
>>>>> due to difficulty deciding what system to use for incoming chat
>>>>> notifications, I urge that the menuOpened events be stopped
>>>>> immediately even if this results in no notification of an incoming
> chat.
>>>> Silent chat arrival is a problem but does not impair use of every
>>>> other application on the computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Frequently during an active voice call in Lync 2013 and Skype
>>>>> for Business 2016, the keyboard is taken over in such a way as to
>>>>> prevent many JAWS commands from working. Again, a user must Alt+Tab
>>>>> to rectify this situation. My very rough estimate is that this
>>>>> happens at least once
>>>> every 5-10 minutes, though my recollection of the time interval is
>>>> imprecise.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am forwarding this message to some members of my office
>>>>> accessibility team in case they have further thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 10:03:25AM -0600, NFBCS mailing list wrote:
>>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following message.  This also
>>>>> applies
>>>> to your own personal experience with Microsoft product, even though
>>>> the below email specifies serving students and adults.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeanine Lineback
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "McSorley, Jan" <jan.mcsorley at pearson.com>
>>>>>> Date: February 16, 2016 at 12:42:29 PM CST
>>>>>> To: Jeanine Kay Lineback <jeanine.lineback at gmail.com>, Edgar
>>>>>> Lozano <lozano.edgar94 at gmail.com>, Su Park <su.park98 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Collecting Information for Microsoft's new CAO
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just got off a call with Anne Taylor who, as you know, used to
>>>>>> be the
>>>> Director of Access Technology at the National Federation of the
>>>> Blind.  She now works for Microsoft and her boss is Microsoft's new
>>>> Chief Accessibility Officer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anne asked me to compile a list of access barriers in Microsoft
>>>>>> products
>>>> that impede the work I am trying to accomplish at Pearson, but I
>>>> would like to take this opportunity to get additional feedback from
>>>> others in the field.  I would love to add your insights and opinions
>>>> on how Microsoft could help improve education, productivity, etc. of
>>>> people  with disabilities by making improvements in the
>>>> accessibility of
>> their products.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will be working on a list of ideas for Anne, but if you have any
>>>> thoughts or feedback on the following questions, I will be sure to
>>>> share your name(s) as contributors to the list:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Are there any access barriers to using Microsoft products that
>>>>>> make it
>>>> difficult for you to serve students or adults with disabilities.
>>>> For
>>>> example:
>>>>>> Word
>>>>>> PowerPoint
>>>>>> Excel
>>>>>> Windows Operating Systems
>>>>>> Windows Browsers
>>>>>> 2.  Is there anything you wish Microsoft products
>>>>>> would/could/should do
>>>> that they are not doing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.  In your opinion, what should Microsoft's accessibility
>>>>>> priorities be?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any help or input you could provide would be appreciated.  This is
>>>>>> a
>>>> unique opportunity to get ideas and requests up the chain at
>>>> Microsoft, so please don't underestimate the importance of your
> feedback.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please share with others in your network as you see fit.  I will
>>>>>> be
>>>> reviewing the list with Anne Taylor the week of March 22nd, so there
>>>> is time to reach out to others.
>>>>>> _________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For kids
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jan McSorley
>>>>>> Head of Accessibility
>>>>>> School Line of Business
>>>>>> Pearson Assessment Centre
>>>>>>
>>>>>> M: (512) 673-9569
>>>>>> E: jan.mcsorley at pearson.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pearson
>>>>>> Always Learning
>>>>>> Learn more at www.pearsonk12.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We put a man on the moon in the 1960's ... surely we can make
>>>>>> information
>>>> technology fully accessible to people with disabilities.  It can be
>>>> done ...
>>>> it must be done ... it will be done!
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/dgl%40dlee.org
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Doug Lee                 dgl at dlee.org
> http://www.dlee.org
>>>>> SSB BART Group           doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>>>> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>>>>> "I before E, except after C, or when sounded like A, as in neighbor
>>>>> and weigh, except for when weird foreign concierges seize neither
>>>>> leisure nor science from the height of society."
>>>>
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>>>> nfbcs:
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>>>> c
>>>> able.co
>>>> m
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>
> --
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
>
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