[nfbcs] The Mac Beckens

Nicole Torcolini ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Mon Jan 18 01:29:56 UTC 2016 

What matters the most is different for each person. Also, I think that he
was primarily trying to answer my sharp question about what was better about
VoiceOver.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher
Chaltain via nfbcs
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 3:15 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Cc: Christopher Chaltain
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens

True, but with PC's you get more options when it comes to price and with
NVDA, JAWS home license, Window-Eyes and Linux, you can get a cheaper
system, including screen reader, then you can with Apple.

On 17/01/16 14:27, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
> I think one of the mainreasons people like voiceover so much is that 
> it is included on every Apple device for no additional cost. That is 
> non-trivial.
>
>
>
>
> On 01/17/2016 01:55 PM, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs wrote:
>>                  Here is my opinion. I will use a Mac when hell 
>> freezes over.
>> What the devil is so much better about VoiceOver?
>>
>>                  Stop making empty claims without supporting them. 
>> Stop cherry picking the information that you want and ignoring the 
>> rest. As this article 
>> <http://qz.com/588126/theres-a-good-reason-americans-are-horrible-at-
>> science
>>
>> />  says, stops using facts "much like a drunk uses a
>>
>> lamppost: for support, not illumination."
>>
>>                  VoiceOver has just as many, if not more, problems as 
>> other screen readers. I know because many of my coworkers use Macs, 
>> and Apple is introducing more bugs than they are fixing when it comes 
>> to internet use.
>> And they have no pressure to fix the bugs because, on the Mac, there 
>> is no competition.
>>
>>                  Microsoft has a screen reader; it is called Narrator.
>> I have
>> heard that it is better on newer versions of Windows, which I have 
>> not tried, but, from my experience, it does not work worth a damn. I 
>> know that Microsoft has some kind of deal with Windows Eyes, but it 
>> does not work well with complex websites. Also, if Microsoft will not 
>> even consider accessibility when making their products, and do stuff 
>> like put the ribbon everywhere, why would they be interested in 
>> maintaining a screen reader?
>>
>>
>> Nicole
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter 
>> Donahue via nfbcs
>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:25 PM
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>> Cc: Peter Donahue
>> Subject: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
>>
>>
>>
>> Good morning everyone,
>>
>>
>>                  If Microsoft would do with its Windows screen reader 
>> what Apple has done with the MAC and its iDevices perhaps we would 
>> have fewer issues with compatibility and accessibility tools could be 
>> kept up-to-date more easily and with little to no cost. Perhaps some 
>> MAC and iOS users could weigh in on this issue with the petition and 
>> share their experiences with accessing it under iOS and oSX. Perhaps 
>> in another few years we'll be 100% Mac and iOS users in this 
>> house-hold.
>>
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: nfbcs [ <mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> 
>> mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain 
>> via nfbcs
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 10:35 PM
>>
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>
>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain
>>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] NVDA and JAWS [was "Re: Petition Asking 
>> President Obama To Direct the JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet 
>> Regulations"]
>>
>>
>> The idea that anything that's three years old is antiquated is incorrect.
>>
>> I'm sure quite a few people on this list are using Office2013 or 
>> Office 2010 if not something older. Microsoft and many companies 
>> support products for more than three years. People used Windows XP 
>> for ten years and beyond.
>>
>>
>> I never saw anything on this list that the problem accessing this 
>> petition has to do with the version of JAWS being used. I get the 
>> impression that people using more recent versions of JAWS are 
>> experiencing the same problem.
>>
>> In other words, I didn't see anything in this thread that JAWS 13 
>> can't do the job and can't be used affectively for all sorts of 
>> tasks. It seems to me that people are just jumping to conclusions and 
>> using this message to make a point rather than help a JAWS user solve 
>> their problem and submit this petition.
>>
>>
>> Obviously, I can't tell people what words they can and cannot use, 
>> but I think information can be provided in a more sympathetic tone. 
>> I'm sure most people running JAWS 13 would like to upgrade, and they 
>> don't need to have their faces rubbed in the fact that they can't 
>> afford an update.
>>
>> No one may have intended to make anyone feel bad but communication is 
>> a two way street, and people need to take into account not just how 
>> their words are intended but how they may be received.
>>
>>
>> On 16/01/16 22:08, Buddy Brannan via nfbcs wrote:
>>
>>> The unfortunate reality is that you simply *can't* do everything 
>>> with one
>> screen reader. There's certainly no reason not to have more than one 
>> if you can afford one, because NVDA is free software. Both 
>> definitions of free.
>>
>> Window-Eyes is even no cost if you have Office 2010 or newer.
>>
>>> The other unfortunate reality is that Jaws 13.0 *is* antiquated, and 
>>> that
>> isn't meant to make anyone feel bad, it's just a fact. You really 
>> can't use a three year old version of anything and expect it to 
>> behave correctly with something that's newer. It just isn't 
>> realistic.
>>
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>> Email:  <mailto:buddy at brannan.name> buddy at brannan.name
>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 10:55 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs
>> < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> I agree that it's good to have NVDA in your tool box regardless of 
>>>> what
>> version of JAWS you're running, but it isn't always possible for 
>> people to keep up with a product like JAWS, and using two different 
>> screen readers can be frustrating. I think it's OK to suggest JAWS, 
>> but there's no need to make anyone feel bad by calling the tools they 
>> can afford to use "antiquated".
>>
>>>> On 16/01/16 15:18, Jude DaShiell via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>> This is why when jaws users know they're not going to be able to 
>>>>> update jaws it's a good idea to have installed nvda to do the jobs 
>>>>> their antiquated version of jaws can no longer do.
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Mike Freeman via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:03:52
>>>>>> From: Mike Freeman via nfbcs < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List < 
>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>
>>>>>> Cc: Mike Freeman < <mailto:k7uij at panix.com> k7uij at panix.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
>>>>>>      JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations excess 
>>>>>> ability does not imply backward compatibility. Your version of 
>>>>>> jaws is several versions out of date. I suspect it may be part of 
>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 12:52, Jennifer Aberdeen via nfbcs < 
>>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Why is this patition not accessible? When I click on the submit 
>>>>>>> button, in different ways; enter, space, left mouse button on 
>>>>>>> the num pad, nothing happens.
>>>>>>> I'm using jaws 13 with win 7 and IE 11.
>>>>>>> Jen
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Curtis Chong via nfbcs
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 1:38 PM
>>>>>>> To:  <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the 
>>>>>>> JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations
>>>>>>> Greetings:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016, the National Federation of the 
>>>>>>> Blind launched a petition (the link to which is provided below) 
>>>>>>> calling on the Obama administration promptly to release the 
>>>>>>> long-awaited ADA internet regulations. On the 20th anniversary 
>>>>>>> of the Americans with Disabilities Act (way back in 2010), 
>>>>>>> President Obama said that he would issue regulations 
>>>>>>> implementing the requirement for accessible websites, noting 
>>>>>>> that they would be "the most important updates to the ADA since its
original enactment."
>>>>>>> President Obama now says that the regulations will not be 
>>>>>>> released until 2018, after he leaves office.
>>>>>>> For those of who are blind, inaccessible websites can make it 
>>>>>>> impossible to apply for jobs, participate in online courses, or 
>>>>>>> conduct vital personal financial business. Website developers 
>>>>>>> need guidance on how to comply with the law. Failing to provide 
>>>>>>> that guidance is irresponsible and inconsistent with President 
>>>>>>> Obama's expressed commitment to civil rights.
>>>>>>> If you are interested in signing the petition (and I hope you 
>>>>>>> are), point your browser to this link.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-
>>>>>>> jus>
>> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-jus
>>
>>>>>>> tice-promp
>>>>>>> tly-release-ada-internet-regulations
>>>>>>> As an example of the need for these regulations, some JAWS users 
>>>>>>> running Internet Explorer have reported a problem with the "sign"
>>>>>>> button when attempting to add their name. Here are some 
>>>>>>> solutions to help mitigate that problem.
>>>>>>> 1.            Try routing the JAWS cursor to PC (Insert+Numpad
>>>>>>> Minus), and
>>>>>>> pressing  the left mouse button (Numpad Slash), and the "sign"
>>>>>>> button will be selected.
>>>>>>> 2.            Alternatively, you can sign the petition using the
>> Mozilla
>>
>>>>>>> Firefox browser.
>>>>>>> The petition is reported to be accessible using iOS devices such 
>>>>>>> as the iPad or iPhone.
>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>> Curtis Chong, President
>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>
>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>> ---
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>>>>>>> om
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>>>>>> .com
>>>> --
>>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> me
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>>
>> --
>>
>> Christopher (CJ)
>>
>> chaltain at Gmail
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

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