[nfbcs] The Mac Beckens

Jim Barbour jbar at barcore.com
Mon Jan 18 03:34:55 UTC 2016 

I don't have a strong side to take in this argument, but I will point out that the convenience cost point is it really valid. You can buy windows machines rescreen with screen readers preinstalled from third-party resellers.

On the other hand, I feel there's a lot of value  in being able to walk up to any Macintosh, or pick up anybody's iPhone, and know that I can independently turn on and use a full-featured screen reader.

Jim

Written While on the Move

> On Jan 17, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Peter Donahue via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Good evening everyone,
> 
>    For some the extra money is worth it to have your device come with
> an accessibility solution already built in and ready to go and not have to
> hassle with the issues related to using Windows and associated screen access
> systems. It's a case of convenience over cost. If one can perform all
> computing tasks they did in Windows in the Apple environment convenience
> will win out any day.
> 
> Peter Donahue
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher
> Chaltain via nfbcs
> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 5:15 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: Christopher Chaltain
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
> 
> True, but with PC's you get more options when it comes to price and with
> NVDA, JAWS home license, Window-Eyes and Linux, you can get a cheaper
> system, including screen reader, then you can with Apple.
> 
>> On 17/01/16 14:27, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>> I think one of the mainreasons people like voiceover so much is that 
>> it is included on every Apple device for no additional cost. That is 
>> non-trivial.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 01/17/2016 01:55 PM, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs wrote:
>>>                 Here is my opinion. I will use a Mac when hell 
>>> freezes over.
>>> What the devil is so much better about VoiceOver?
>>> 
>>>                 Stop making empty claims without supporting them. 
>>> Stop cherry picking the information that you want and ignoring the 
>>> rest. As this article 
>>> <http://qz.com/588126/theres-a-good-reason-americans-are-horrible-at-
>>> science
>>> 
>>> />  says, stops using facts "much like a drunk uses a
>>> 
>>> lamppost: for support, not illumination."
>>> 
>>>                 VoiceOver has just as many, if not more, problems as 
>>> other screen readers. I know because many of my coworkers use Macs, 
>>> and Apple is introducing more bugs than they are fixing when it comes 
>>> to internet use.
>>> And they have no pressure to fix the bugs because, on the Mac, there 
>>> is no competition.
>>> 
>>>                 Microsoft has a screen reader; it is called Narrator.
>>> I have
>>> heard that it is better on newer versions of Windows, which I have 
>>> not tried, but, from my experience, it does not work worth a damn. I 
>>> know that Microsoft has some kind of deal with Windows Eyes, but it 
>>> does not work well with complex websites. Also, if Microsoft will not 
>>> even consider accessibility when making their products, and do stuff 
>>> like put the ribbon everywhere, why would they be interested in 
>>> maintaining a screen reader?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Nicole
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter 
>>> Donahue via nfbcs
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:25 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Cc: Peter Donahue
>>> Subject: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Good morning everyone,
>>> 
>>> 
>>>                 If Microsoft would do with its Windows screen reader 
>>> what Apple has done with the MAC and its iDevices perhaps we would 
>>> have fewer issues with compatibility and accessibility tools could be 
>>> kept up-to-date more easily and with little to no cost. Perhaps some 
>>> MAC and iOS users could weigh in on this issue with the petition and 
>>> share their experiences with accessing it under iOS and oSX. Perhaps 
>>> in another few years we'll be 100% Mac and iOS users in this 
>>> house-hold.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Peter Donahue
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> 
>>> From: nfbcs [ <mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> 
>>> mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain 
>>> via nfbcs
>>> 
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 10:35 PM
>>> 
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> 
>>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain
>>> 
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] NVDA and JAWS [was "Re: Petition Asking 
>>> President Obama To Direct the JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet 
>>> Regulations"]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The idea that anything that's three years old is antiquated is incorrect.
>>> 
>>> I'm sure quite a few people on this list are using Office2013 or 
>>> Office 2010 if not something older. Microsoft and many companies 
>>> support products for more than three years. People used Windows XP 
>>> for ten years and beyond.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I never saw anything on this list that the problem accessing this 
>>> petition has to do with the version of JAWS being used. I get the 
>>> impression that people using more recent versions of JAWS are 
>>> experiencing the same problem.
>>> 
>>> In other words, I didn't see anything in this thread that JAWS 13 
>>> can't do the job and can't be used affectively for all sorts of 
>>> tasks. It seems to me that people are just jumping to conclusions and 
>>> using this message to make a point rather than help a JAWS user solve 
>>> their problem and submit this petition.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Obviously, I can't tell people what words they can and cannot use, 
>>> but I think information can be provided in a more sympathetic tone. 
>>> I'm sure most people running JAWS 13 would like to upgrade, and they 
>>> don't need to have their faces rubbed in the fact that they can't 
>>> afford an update.
>>> 
>>> No one may have intended to make anyone feel bad but communication is 
>>> a two way street, and people need to take into account not just how 
>>> their words are intended but how they may be received.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 16/01/16 22:08, Buddy Brannan via nfbcs wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The unfortunate reality is that you simply *can't* do everything 
>>>> with one
>>> screen reader. There's certainly no reason not to have more than one 
>>> if you can afford one, because NVDA is free software. Both 
>>> definitions of free.
>>> 
>>> Window-Eyes is even no cost if you have Office 2010 or newer.
>>> 
>>>> The other unfortunate reality is that Jaws 13.0 *is* antiquated, and 
>>>> that
>>> isn't meant to make anyone feel bad, it's just a fact. You really 
>>> can't use a three year old version of anything and expect it to 
>>> behave correctly with something that's newer. It just isn't 
>>> realistic.
>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>>> Email:  <mailto:buddy at brannan.name> buddy at brannan.name
>>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 10:55 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs
>>> < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> I agree that it's good to have NVDA in your tool box regardless of 
>>>>> what
>>> version of JAWS you're running, but it isn't always possible for 
>>> people to keep up with a product like JAWS, and using two different 
>>> screen readers can be frustrating. I think it's OK to suggest JAWS, 
>>> but there's no need to make anyone feel bad by calling the tools they 
>>> can afford to use "antiquated".
>>> 
>>>>>> On 16/01/16 15:18, Jude DaShiell via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>> This is why when jaws users know they're not going to be able to 
>>>>>> update jaws it's a good idea to have installed nvda to do the jobs 
>>>>>> their antiquated version of jaws can no longer do.
>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Mike Freeman via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:03:52
>>>>>>> From: Mike Freeman via nfbcs < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> 
>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List < 
>>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> 
>>>>>>> Cc: Mike Freeman < <mailto:k7uij at panix.com> k7uij at panix.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
>>>>>>>     JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations excess 
>>>>>>> ability does not imply backward compatibility. Your version of 
>>>>>>> jaws is several versions out of date. I suspect it may be part of 
>>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 12:52, Jennifer Aberdeen via nfbcs < 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Why is this patition not accessible? When I click on the submit 
>>>>>>>> button, in different ways; enter, space, left mouse button on 
>>>>>>>> the num pad, nothing happens.
>>>>>>>> I'm using jaws 13 with win 7 and IE 11.
>>>>>>>> Jen
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Curtis Chong via nfbcs
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 1:38 PM
>>>>>>>> To:  <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the 
>>>>>>>> JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations
>>>>>>>> Greetings:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016, the National Federation of the 
>>>>>>>> Blind launched a petition (the link to which is provided below) 
>>>>>>>> calling on the Obama administration promptly to release the 
>>>>>>>> long-awaited ADA internet regulations. On the 20th anniversary 
>>>>>>>> of the Americans with Disabilities Act (way back in 2010), 
>>>>>>>> President Obama said that he would issue regulations 
>>>>>>>> implementing the requirement for accessible websites, noting 
>>>>>>>> that they would be "the most important updates to the ADA since its
> original enactment."
>>>>>>>> President Obama now says that the regulations will not be 
>>>>>>>> released until 2018, after he leaves office.
>>>>>>>> For those of who are blind, inaccessible websites can make it 
>>>>>>>> impossible to apply for jobs, participate in online courses, or 
>>>>>>>> conduct vital personal financial business. Website developers 
>>>>>>>> need guidance on how to comply with the law. Failing to provide 
>>>>>>>> that guidance is irresponsible and inconsistent with President 
>>>>>>>> Obama's expressed commitment to civil rights.
>>>>>>>> If you are interested in signing the petition (and I hope you 
>>>>>>>> are), point your browser to this link.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> <https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-
>>>>>>>> jus>
>>> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-jus
>>> 
>>>>>>>> tice-promp
>>>>>>>> tly-release-ada-internet-regulations
>>>>>>>> As an example of the need for these regulations, some JAWS users 
>>>>>>>> running Internet Explorer have reported a problem with the "sign"
>>>>>>>> button when attempting to add their name. Here are some 
>>>>>>>> solutions to help mitigate that problem.
>>>>>>>> 1.            Try routing the JAWS cursor to PC (Insert+Numpad
>>>>>>>> Minus), and
>>>>>>>> pressing  the left mouse button (Numpad Slash), and the "sign"
>>>>>>>> button will be selected.
>>>>>>>> 2.            Alternatively, you can sign the petition using the
>>> Mozilla
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Firefox browser.
>>>>>>>> The petition is reported to be accessible using iOS devices such 
>>>>>>>> as the iPad or iPhone.
>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>> Curtis Chong, President
>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>>>>>>>  <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> 
>>>>>>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus 
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>>>>>>>> om
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>>>>> --
>>>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> me
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> m
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>> 
>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> --
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
> 
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