[nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against Disabled

Fri Mar 11 14:15:21 UTC 2016

Trying to see the big picture, I think there are 2 things to take away 
from this discussion. One is that it takes a lot of hard work to be 
successful as a blind technologist.

Second, I think we in the blind community need to do a better job of 
supporting our colleagues who are struggling. I think there is too much 
of us saying, "If you can't cut it, it's your own fault." That article 
and the associated comments show that in order to succeed, you have to 
be better than everybody else. Think about the amount of pressure that 
puts on someone who might have family commitments, other health issues, 
or simply isn't super blind guy.

Man, I wish I could quit my job and devote my life to this stuff full 
time. The first thing I'd do is rewrite the linux screen reader, 
speakup. Then I'd build a device to acccess BIOS setup screens via  
video capture and OCR.  Then on the second day I'd ...

On 03/10/2016 04:21 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
> John,
>
> I think you raise some interesting points.  When I started working some
> forty years ago, it was common thought that the agency for the blind
> provided the equipment for a job.  Often this was a one-time thing, and of
> course that has changed.  However, particularly with the coming of ADA, but
> even before that, it became the employer's responsibility to provide needed
> equipment as a reasonable accommodation.  Whether it should be considered or
> not, that makes us more expensive to hire for the same return, unless, as
> you say, we can convince an employer that we will produce more.  However, I
> am somewhat uneasy with the concept that we produce more to justify our
> extra equipment because it may not be that easy to achieve.  A lot of our
> reasonable accommodation needs are really pretty small for a large company,
> but they can be an "Undo burden" on a small company which is where many jobs
> are.  Also, many large companies budget at a department level and one's
> equipment may need to be paid for by the department that does the hiring.  A
> small expense for a large company might be much more substantial at the
> department level.  come
>
> I don't claim to have answers, but I believe this problem needs to be
> considered.  Still, can one really claim discrimination if someone else is
> hired who does not have reasonable accommodation needs?  I know that some
> job applicants are told to iron out their reasonable accommodation needs
> right away, and there is a case to be made for that.  One needs to know if
> they can do the job for one thing.  But it really exposes one's hand, so to
> speak, very early in the process.  Another employee who does not require any
> reasonable accommodations but who had a family situation that causes them to
> require time off, for example, won't reveal any of this until they have been
> hired.  We need to look for answers to some of this as blind people because
> we are the ones most effected.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim via
> nfbcs
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:51 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>; Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
> Disabled
>
> It'd be funny if it wasn't about putting bread on the table.
> Another thing in the comments that I think is of interest is that some
> people blasted the research study saying it was stupid to disclose that
> you are disabled in the cover letter. But both of our examples show how
> futile it is to not disclose it.  You're going to end up at a lot of
> interviews where you have absolutely no chance at the job. There is
> always some chance you'll wow the interviewer into giving you a chance,
> I suppose. Is it worth it? Just my opinion but I don't think so. I think
> you are better off weeding those people out in the first place.
>
> The last time I was applying for jobs, I made myself out to be Super
> Blind Guy in my cover letter. Of course, I didn't actually use that term
> in my cover letter but I made a point of emphasizing the things I could
> do. I have competed in triathlonns, landscaped the front of my house,
> done a lot of woodworking. For what it's worth, it seemed to work.
>
> You know about Super Blind Guy, right? He and his faithful guide dog
> companion  go around righting wrongs with his razor sharp mind, super
> hearing, echo location, and super sensitive touch. "Ah ha!" says Super
> Blind Guy, "I knew the bill was counterfeit because it was dated 1936
> and Andrew Jackson didn't appear on the twenty until 1938."
> On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>> I once interviewed for a job, taking a bus, a train, and walking several
>> blocks in Manhattan, only to find the interviewer could not be convinced I
>> wouldn't need someone to lead me to the bathroom.  Grrrr.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim via
>> nfbcs
>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:03 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Cc: John G Heim
>> Subject: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against Disabled
>>
>>
> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/upshot/fake-cover-letters-expose-discri
>> mination-against-disabled.html
>>
>> I think I have talked on this list about wanting to commission a study
>> similar to the one mentioned in this article except with a blind applicant
>> applying for IT jobs. The study has people with spinal injuries and
>> Asperger's Syndrome applying for accounting jobs. They found disabled
>> applicants were 26% less likely to get a call back. Of particular interest
>> are some of the comments.
>>
>> "Given two candidates of roughly equal qualifications the rational
> decision
>> would be to hire the one without disabilities. It's going to be less
>> expensive, on average . [...] So statistically, a disabled job applicant
>> would need to be sufficiently better qualified for the job to overcome the
>> disability to be the 'correct' choice."
>>
>> Long time readers of this list will know I've speculated about this effect
>> for years. My guess is that this factor is much greater for blind
> applicants
>> than it is for the types of disabilities in the study. A blind person
> does,
>> in fact, have greater challenges to over come. But I suspect that even
> worse
>> is the lack of understanding about just how much a blind technologist can
>> do. A perspective employer once flatly refused to interview me when she
> saw
>> that I was blind. She essentially accused me of faking my resume and
> simply
>> would not believe a blind person could use a computer.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu

-- 
--
John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org

On 03/10/2016 04:21 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
> John,
>
> I think you raise some interesting points.  When I started working some
> forty years ago, it was common thought that the agency for the blind
> provided the equipment for a job.  Often this was a one-time thing, and of
> course that has changed.  However, particularly with the coming of ADA, but
> even before that, it became the employer's responsibility to provide needed
> equipment as a reasonable accommodation.  Whether it should be considered or
> not, that makes us more expensive to hire for the same return, unless, as
> you say, we can convince an employer that we will produce more.  However, I
> am somewhat uneasy with the concept that we produce more to justify our
> extra equipment because it may not be that easy to achieve.  A lot of our
> reasonable accommodation needs are really pretty small for a large company,
> but they can be an "Undo burden" on a small company which is where many jobs
> are.  Also, many large companies budget at a department level and one's
> equipment may need to be paid for by the department that does the hiring.  A
> small expense for a large company might be much more substantial at the
> department level.  come
>
> I don't claim to have answers, but I believe this problem needs to be
> considered.  Still, can one really claim discrimination if someone else is
> hired who does not have reasonable accommodation needs?  I know that some
> job applicants are told to iron out their reasonable accommodation needs
> right away, and there is a case to be made for that.  One needs to know if
> they can do the job for one thing.  But it really exposes one's hand, so to
> speak, very early in the process.  Another employee who does not require any
> reasonable accommodations but who had a family situation that causes them to
> require time off, for example, won't reveal any of this until they have been
> hired.  We need to look for answers to some of this as blind people because
> we are the ones most effected.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim via
> nfbcs
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:51 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>; Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
> Disabled
>
> It'd be funny if it wasn't about putting bread on the table.
> Another thing in the comments that I think is of interest is that some
> people blasted the research study saying it was stupid to disclose that
> you are disabled in the cover letter. But both of our examples show how
> futile it is to not disclose it.  You're going to end up at a lot of
> interviews where you have absolutely no chance at the job. There is
> always some chance you'll wow the interviewer into giving you a chance,
> I suppose. Is it worth it? Just my opinion but I don't think so. I think
> you are better off weeding those people out in the first place.
>
> The last time I was applying for jobs, I made myself out to be Super
> Blind Guy in my cover letter. Of course, I didn't actually use that term
> in my cover letter but I made a point of emphasizing the things I could
> do. I have competed in triathlonns, landscaped the front of my house,
> done a lot of woodworking. For what it's worth, it seemed to work.
>
> You know about Super Blind Guy, right? He and his faithful guide dog
> companion  go around righting wrongs with his razor sharp mind, super
> hearing, echo location, and super sensitive touch. "Ah ha!" says Super
> Blind Guy, "I knew the bill was counterfeit because it was dated 1936
> and Andrew Jackson didn't appear on the twenty until 1938."
> On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>> I once interviewed for a job, taking a bus, a train, and walking several
>> blocks in Manhattan, only to find the interviewer could not be convinced I
>> wouldn't need someone to lead me to the bathroom.  Grrrr.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim via
>> nfbcs
>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:03 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Cc: John G Heim
>> Subject: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against Disabled
>>
>>
> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/upshot/fake-cover-letters-expose-discri
>> mination-against-disabled.html
>>
>> I think I have talked on this list about wanting to commission a study
>> similar to the one mentioned in this article except with a blind applicant
>> applying for IT jobs. The study has people with spinal injuries and
>> Asperger's Syndrome applying for accounting jobs. They found disabled
>> applicants were 26% less likely to get a call back. Of particular interest
>> are some of the comments.
>>
>> "Given two candidates of roughly equal qualifications the rational
> decision
>> would be to hire the one without disabilities. It's going to be less
>> expensive, on average . [...] So statistically, a disabled job applicant
>> would need to be sufficiently better qualified for the job to overcome the
>> disability to be the 'correct' choice."
>>
>> Long time readers of this list will know I've speculated about this effect
>> for years. My guess is that this factor is much greater for blind
> applicants
>> than it is for the types of disabilities in the study. A blind person
> does,
>> in fact, have greater challenges to over come. But I suspect that even
> worse
>> is the lack of understanding about just how much a blind technologist can
>> do. A perspective employer once flatly refused to interview me when she
> saw
>> that I was blind. She essentially accused me of faking my resume and
> simply
>> would not believe a blind person could use a computer.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu

-- 
--
John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org