[nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination AgainstDisabled

pnwthorsen at aol.com pnwthorsen at aol.com
Sat Mar 12 19:44:22 UTC 2016 

Christopher, I actually do not have alternate suggestions.  My reason for posting was to simply present the situation as we experienced it.  I am a whole-hearted advocate for the pursuit of justice and equality through the courts.  We have come so very far by enforcing our rights of equal access and opportunity and it would be shameful to lose that ideology.  However, I agree with you that any situation must be worthy of litigation and properly dealt with.  Backlash is difficult, especially when you are the individual downstream.  
    I am not aware of situations where an HR person must document their rationale for hiring someone over another unless it is perhaps for a court of law, and I don't think that happens too often.  Most often and what we will normally encounter is business as usual.  That is why it is so valuable to share experiences both positive and negative on this thread.  We all have a wide degree of both positive and negative experiences and also a wide range of personal philosophies.  It is this sharing that helps to shape both for the individuals on this list.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at gmail.com>
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: pnwthorsen <pnwthorsen at aol.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 12, 2016 11:22 am
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination AgainstDisabled

I'm not sure your first point is accurate. Of course, there will be 
managers and HR staff out there who just use it as a warning to be 
careful what they say and document, but I think it's also just as likely 
that hiring managers will be told they need to consider all applicants 
and base their hiring decisions on how qualified an applicant is based 
on their resume and experience. When a hiring manager has to justify in 
writing why they selected the candidate they did and why that was the 
best candidate for the position, it might make them take a closer look 
at the candidates and why they're making the decision they did.

I'm also not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative. Are you 
saying that blind people who are discriminated against in the hiring 
process or on the job should not seek legal recourse? I'm afraid that 
that will just let that practice continue. I agree that there's always 
some backlash when a law suit is brought, and therefore lawsuits should 
be brought very judiciously, but when the law is broken, there should be 
some recourse.

On 12/03/16 12:04, pnwthorsen--- via nfbcs wrote:
>
> This has been a most interesting discussion thread.   Thank you all for the contributions, the varied points of view have much to offer all  the variety of employment situations on this list.  I would like to relay the experiences my son has had over the past year as it speaks volumes as to what one might encounter.
>      My son over the past year has applied to numerous entry level civil engineering positions with a CE degree from a prestigious university along with a math degree.  His resume has several research internship and publication experiences along with references that would highly endorse him.
>     In our local area we have three Navy bases with many continual engineering job openings posted throughout the year, even some listing that ask for as many as 110 openings.  We have many friends who are employed at these various facilities in high level management position, but not HR.  At least 8 people, all friends of the family, who know and respect my son's ability have advocated for him and passed his resume on to their division HR person.  Many times the comments have been, "This is a great resume."  However with each situation, because the family friend knows us well they have mentioned my son's visual impairment. I can't really call it a disclosure, it was just a characteristic of my son just like he has brown hair.   To our acquaintances, they don't  consider it a disability because they know he can do the work.  However I don't think HR ever viewed it that way.  My son has not received one interview or follow up acknowledgment that they will consider him for hi
 ring.  In
 the mean time we know of many hires, who seemingly on paper do not have the same qualifications. Often at these places a person can be hired without even an interview.
>      One other fact worth noting is that one of these Navy facilities has just gone through a very highly publicized and challenging law suit by a visually impaired employee. The employee claimed discrimination against the Navy based on her visual impairment.  She claimed that she was passed up for advancement based on her disability, race, and gender.  I do not know the details of the case or even how it was settled.  I believe it was settled out of court for a mutually agreed upon sum of money.  The press highlighted the visual disability as the main cause for the law suit.
>      Now on the other hand as my son is continuing his job search, he has submitted his resume and application to several out of state agencies in the past three months.  The response has been fantastic.  He has three active employment situations and one in person interview scheduled and I am certain the other two will also lead to that.  He did not disclose to any of them.  It will come up at the in person interview if applicable, but he has been given the opportunity to make a first impression without the initial visual impairment information.  This leads me to believe that several factors are in place here:
> 1.  The lawsuit brought against the shipyard Navy facility did nothing to advance the cause for hiring a blind individual.  In fact I feel it did the opposite.  It may have helped her, but it tainted the path for  future individuals to follow.
>
> 2.  Disclosing, even with the backing of highly respected individuals, does not help one get their foot in the door for even an interview.  You need that first interview to show you can do the job.
>
> 3.  Keep trying, there are people out there who will be interested in your abilities and accomplishments and work your best to get your foot in the door to make that first impression.
> The advice given on this thread has been very affirming and my son will be flying to his interview with many of the tips of presenting himself in tow and reinforced.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david hertweck via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: david hertweck <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net>
> Sent: Sat, Mar 12, 2016 6:41 am
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination AgainstDisabled
>
> I would like to share a few thoughts.  We must remember finding and keeping
> a job is one of the hardest things a person will do in their lives weather
> or not they are blind.  There are all types of miss-conceptions that will
> effect a interview process, sex, age, race even height and body shape.  I
> believe the most important things are as follows.
>
> 1. Showing a proven track record.  This can be from academics and or other
> work experiences.
>
> 2. Showing that you bring the proper tools to the job.  if it means getting
> a job showing willingness to provide your own access equipment goes a long
> way. This shows that you are willing to do what it takes to complete the
> job.  If a company provides access equipment this is a bonus.  I have found
> that coming to a job with my own access equipment can get me in the door.
> after being an employee I have found that it is worth it to the company to
> help you with access equipment far offsets the costs to replace you.  I like
> this to an electrician or carpenter that must supply their own tools to
> work.  On the other side of this I once interviewed  a person that a large
> part of the interview was all the accommodations this person wanted or
> needed to work.  I can tell you that this was a big turn off.  Personally I
> have taken loans out for access equipment for me this was a good financial
> investment in my career and it has paid me back many times over.
>
> 3. Provide a complete set of refferences.  This goes a long way for
> interviewers that may have doughts about a blind prospect.
>
> These things will not get you past people that have there mind set against
> blind people, my thoughts on this are your loss and I do not want to work
> for you anyway.
>
> Pleas do not fall into the rut of I can not get a job because I am blind.
> One thing I do is make it my job to find a job, this is hard to do.  If a
> job is a 40h a week job then one should spend at least 40h a week finding a
> job.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 9:22 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: Christopher Chaltain
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination
> AgainstDisabled
>
> The goal when you're applying for a job is to get to that next step in
> the process. This is true whether you're blind or sighted. Your resume
> is meant to get you to a screening interview with HR. Your goal in the
> screening interview is to get to talk to the hiring manager and so on.
>
> Obviously, you'll run into those prejudiced managers where it's a waste
> of time and if you had disclosed your blindness, you might have saved
> yourself some time and aggravation, but as others have said, those are
> the cases where you should look into filing a complaint.
>
> Although those narrow minded managers exist, there are a lot more
> managers out there who just don't know. They see a bunch of candidates
> who are all qualified and they start widdling down that list to a
> manageable number. All things being equal between a few candidates,
> except for blindness, then they may move that blind candidate down a few
> places on the list just out of ignorance. If one of those candidates
> higher on the list hits a home run in the interview then the blind
> candidate may never get to talk to the hiring manager and the company
> still got a qualified candidate.
>
> I want to talk to those managers. I'm confident that if I'm in a face to
> face interview, I'm going to impress them with what I've accomplished,
> build a rapport with them and leave that interview knowing that they
> know they're going to get a rock star if they hire me. I've participated
> in a lot of interviews, both as a candidate and as a hiring manager, and
> I know I interview well, and I'm confident that all things being equal,
> my communication skills and leadership style are going to more than make
> up for any perceived disadvantage I might have as a blind candidate.
>
> As I said before, I don't go out of my way to disclose my blindness, but
> as appropriate I do mention my blindness in my interests and job
> experience. I also don't bring up my blindness in the interview, but I
> do deal with it head on if it does come up.
>
> On 11/03/16 09:15, John G Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>> I don't know  ... In the example I gave, I stood up when my name was
>> called, the woman saw that I had a guide dog and said she didn't want to
>> interview me. I don't care how good you are at interviewing, you're not
>> going to over come that. Tracy's story is similar. I've been in
>> interviews like that too. When all they want to know is how you are
>> going to get to the bathroom, no amount of interviewing skill is going
>> to talk them out of it. These things are called prejudices  for a
>> reason. They've made up their mind ahead of time.
>>
>> Take those comments from the woman who said it only makes sense to hire
>> the non-disabled person since they'll be cheaper. Do you think you could
>> talk her out of that during an interview? I really doubt it. People do
>> tend to hire the candidate they hit it off with rather than the most
>> qualified. But I think the vast majority of people like the woman who
>> made that comment would say, "Wow, that blind guy was really great. Too
>> bad we can't hire him."
>>
>> On 03/10/2016 10:14 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs wrote:
>>> I've heard arguments on both sides of the debate as to whether to
>>> disclose or not disclose. For me, I think I do well at face to face
>>> interviews, so my whole goal during the job search is to get that face
>>> to face interview. That being said, I don't hide the fact that I'm
>>> blind on my resume, in my job applications or on my social networking
>>> sites. I also don't volunteer that information if it comes up during a
>>> screening interview over the phone, but I'm prepared to address it and
>>> talk about my accommodations if it does come up.
>>>
>>> As far as accommodations go, I'm at a point in my life where I don't
>>> have a problem purchasing my own accommodations. If laying out a few
>>> thousand dollars is the difference  between being employed or
>>> unemployed then I consider that money well spent. I understand not
>>> everyone is in my financial situation, so I'm not saying this applies
>>> to everyone.
>>>
>>> I haven't had to put this to the test yet. My previous job was at a
>>> company that used Linux, so I was able to do my job using Ubuntu, Orca
>>> and other free access tools. My current job is with the state
>>> government, so I had no qualms expecting them to provide me a screen
>>> reader.
>>>
>>> On 10/03/16 16:21, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs wrote:
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> I think you raise some interesting points.  When I started working some
>>>> forty years ago, it was common thought that the agency for the blind
>>>> provided the equipment for a job.  Often this was a one-time thing,
>>>> and of
>>>> course that has changed.  However, particularly with the coming of
>>>> ADA, but
>>>> even before that, it became the employer's responsibility to provide
>>>> needed
>>>> equipment as a reasonable accommodation.  Whether it should be
>>>> considered or
>>>> not, that makes us more expensive to hire for the same return,
>>>> unless, as
>>>> you say, we can convince an employer that we will produce more.
>>>> However, I
>>>> am somewhat uneasy with the concept that we produce more to justify our
>>>> extra equipment because it may not be that easy to achieve.  A lot of
>>>> our
>>>> reasonable accommodation needs are really pretty small for a large
>>>> company,
>>>> but they can be an "Undo burden" on a small company which is where
>>>> many jobs
>>>> are.  Also, many large companies budget at a department level and one's
>>>> equipment may need to be paid for by the department that does the
>>>> hiring.  A
>>>> small expense for a large company might be much more substantial at the
>>>> department level.  come
>>>>
>>>> I don't claim to have answers, but I believe this problem needs to be
>>>> considered.  Still, can one really claim discrimination if someone
>>>> else is
>>>> hired who does not have reasonable accommodation needs?  I know that
>>>> some
>>>> job applicants are told to iron out their reasonable accommodation needs
>>>> right away, and there is a case to be made for that.  One needs to
>>>> know if
>>>> they can do the job for one thing.  But it really exposes one's hand,
>>>> so to
>>>> speak, very early in the process.  Another employee who does not
>>>> require any
>>>> reasonable accommodations but who had a family situation that causes
>>>> them to
>>>> require time off, for example, won't reveal any of this until they
>>>> have been
>>>> hired.  We need to look for answers to some of this as blind people
>>>> because
>>>> we are the ones most effected.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>> Heim via
>>>> nfbcs
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:51 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>; Tracy Carcione
>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>> Disabled
>>>>
>>>> It'd be funny if it wasn't about putting bread on the table.
>>>> Another thing in the comments that I think is of interest is that some
>>>> people blasted the research study saying it was stupid to disclose that
>>>> you are disabled in the cover letter. But both of our examples show how
>>>> futile it is to not disclose it.  You're going to end up at a lot of
>>>> interviews where you have absolutely no chance at the job. There is
>>>> always some chance you'll wow the interviewer into giving you a chance,
>>>> I suppose. Is it worth it? Just my opinion but I don't think so. I think
>>>> you are better off weeding those people out in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> The last time I was applying for jobs, I made myself out to be Super
>>>> Blind Guy in my cover letter. Of course, I didn't actually use that term
>>>> in my cover letter but I made a point of emphasizing the things I could
>>>> do. I have competed in triathlonns, landscaped the front of my house,
>>>> done a lot of woodworking. For what it's worth, it seemed to work.
>>>>
>>>> You know about Super Blind Guy, right? He and his faithful guide dog
>>>> companion  go around righting wrongs with his razor sharp mind, super
>>>> hearing, echo location, and super sensitive touch. "Ah ha!" says Super
>>>> Blind Guy, "I knew the bill was counterfeit because it was dated 1936
>>>> and Andrew Jackson didn't appear on the twenty until 1938."
>>>> On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>> I once interviewed for a job, taking a bus, a train, and walking
>>>>> several
>>>>> blocks in Manhattan, only to find the interviewer could not be
>>>>> convinced I
>>>>> wouldn't need someone to lead me to the bathroom.  Grrrr.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>>> Heim via
>>>>> nfbcs
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:03 AM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> Cc: John G Heim
>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>>> Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/upshot/fake-cover-letters-expose-discri
>>>>
>>>>> mination-against-disabled.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I have talked on this list about wanting to commission a study
>>>>> similar to the one mentioned in this article except with a blind
>>>>> applicant
>>>>> applying for IT jobs. The study has people with spinal injuries and
>>>>> Asperger's Syndrome applying for accounting jobs. They found disabled
>>>>> applicants were 26% less likely to get a call back. Of particular
>>>>> interest
>>>>> are some of the comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Given two candidates of roughly equal qualifications the rational
>>>> decision
>>>>> would be to hire the one without disabilities. It's going to be less
>>>>> expensive, on average . [...] So statistically, a disabled job
>>>>> applicant
>>>>> would need to be sufficiently better qualified for the job to
>>>>> overcome the
>>>>> disability to be the 'correct' choice."
>>>>>
>>>>> Long time readers of this list will know I've speculated about this
>>>>> effect
>>>>> for years. My guess is that this factor is much greater for blind
>>>> applicants
>>>>> than it is for the types of disabilities in the study. A blind person
>>>> does,
>>>>> in fact, have greater challenges to over come. But I suspect that even
>>>> worse
>>>>> is the lack of understanding about just how much a blind
>>>>> technologist can
>>>>> do. A perspective employer once flatly refused to interview me when she
>>>> saw
>>>>> that I was blind. She essentially accused me of faking my resume and
>>>> simply
>>>>> would not believe a blind person could use a computer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

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