[nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination AgainstDisabled
Christopher Chaltain
chaltain at gmail.com
Sat Mar 12 22:33:17 UTC 2016
In my current position, I have to prepare a rather long document
explaining point by point how this person meets the criteria stated in
the job posting and how this was the best available candidate.
In a previous position, which was for a very large company, I had to
justify why I was offering one candidate the position, and for every
minority (which did not include the disabled) I had to justify why I was
not offering them the position. I've worked for three companies where
I've been a hiring manager, and for these two, which are by far the
larger companies, I've had to prepare this documentation. I know it's a
small sample size, but it doesn't seem that unusual to me.
On 12/03/16 13:44, pnwthorsen at aol.com wrote:
> Christopher, I actually do not have alternate suggestions. My reason
> for posting was to simply present the situation as we experienced it. I
> am a whole-hearted advocate for the pursuit of justice and equality
> through the courts. We have come so very far by enforcing our rights of
> equal access and opportunity and it would be shameful to lose that
> ideology. However, I agree with you that any situation must be worthy
> of litigation and properly dealt with. Backlash is difficult,
> especially when you are the individual downstream.
> I am not aware of situations where an HR person must document their
> rationale for hiring someone over another unless it is perhaps for a
> court of law, and I don't think that happens too often. Most often and
> what we will normally encounter is business as usual. That is why it is
> so valuable to share experiences both positive and negative on this
> thread. We all have a wide degree of both positive and negative
> experiences and also a wide range of personal philosophies. It is this
> sharing that helps to shape both for the individuals on this list.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at gmail.com>
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: pnwthorsen <pnwthorsen at aol.com>
> Sent: Sat, Mar 12, 2016 11:22 am
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination
> AgainstDisabled
>
> I'm not sure your first point is accurate. Of course, there will be
> managers and HR staff out there who just use it as a warning to be
> careful what they say and document, but I think it's also just as likely
> that hiring managers will be told they need to consider all applicants
> and base their hiring decisions on how qualified an applicant is based
> on their resume and experience. When a hiring manager has to justify in
> writing why they selected the candidate they did and why that was the
> best candidate for the position, it might make them take a closer look
> at the candidates and why they're making the decision they did.
>
> I'm also not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative. Are you
> saying that blind people who are discriminated against in the hiring
> process or on the job should not seek legal recourse? I'm afraid that
> that will just let that practice continue. I agree that there's always
> some backlash when a law suit is brought, and therefore lawsuits should
> be brought very judiciously, but when the law is broken, there should be
> some recourse.
>
> On 12/03/16 12:04, pnwthorsen--- via nfbcs wrote:
> >
> > This has been a most interesting discussion thread. Thank you all for
> the contributions, the varied points of view have much to offer all the
> variety of employment situations on this list. I would like to relay the
> experiences my son has had over the past year as it speaks volumes as to
> what one might encounter.
> > My son over the past year has applied to numerous entry level civil
> engineering positions with a CE degree from a prestigious university
> along with a math degree. His resume has several research internship and
> publication experiences along with references that would highly endorse him.
> > In our local area we have three Navy bases with many continual
> engineering job openings posted throughout the year, even some listing
> that ask for as many as 110 openings. We have many friends who are
> employed at these various facilities in high level management position,
> but not HR. At least 8 people, all friends of the family, who know and
> respect my son's ability have advocated for him and passed his resume on
> to their division HR person. Many times the comments have been, "This is
> a great resume." However with each situation, because the family friend
> knows us well they have mentioned my son's visual impairment. I can't
> really call it a disclosure, it was just a characteristic of my son just
> like he has brown hair. To our acquaintances, they don't consider it a
> disability because they know he can do the work. However I don't think
> HR ever viewed it that way. My son has not received one interview or
> follow up acknowledgment that they will consider him for hi
> ring. In
> the mean time we know of many hires, who seemingly on paper do not have
> the same qualifications. Often at these places a person can be hired
> without even an interview.
> > One other fact worth noting is that one of these Navy facilities has
> just gone through a very highly publicized and challenging law suit by a
> visually impaired employee. The employee claimed discrimination against
> the Navy based on her visual impairment. She claimed that she was passed
> up for advancement based on her disability, race, and gender. I do not
> know the details of the case or even how it was settled. I believe it
> was settled out of court for a mutually agreed upon sum of money. The
> press highlighted the visual disability as the main cause for the law suit.
> > Now on the other hand as my son is continuing his job search, he has
> submitted his resume and application to several out of state agencies in
> the past three months. The response has been fantastic. He has three
> active employment situations and one in person interview scheduled and I
> am certain the other two will also lead to that. He did not disclose to
> any of them. It will come up at the in person interview if applicable,
> but he has been given the opportunity to make a first impression without
> the initial visual impairment information. This leads me to believe that
> several factors are in place here:
> > 1. The lawsuit brought against the shipyard Navy facility did nothing
> to advance the cause for hiring a blind individual. In fact I feel it
> did the opposite. It may have helped her, but it tainted the path for
> future individuals to follow.
> >
> > 2. Disclosing, even with the backing of highly respected individuals,
> does not help one get their foot in the door for even an interview. You
> need that first interview to show you can do the job.
> >
> > 3. Keep trying, there are people out there who will be interested in
> your abilities and accomplishments and work your best to get your foot
> in the door to make that first impression.
> > The advice given on this thread has been very affirming and my son
> will be flying to his interview with many of the tips of presenting
> himself in tow and reinforced.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: david hertweck via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>>
> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>>
> > Cc: david hertweck <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net
> <mailto:david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net>>
> > Sent: Sat, Mar 12, 2016 6:41 am
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination
> AgainstDisabled
> >
> > I would like to share a few thoughts. We must remember finding and
> keeping
> > a job is one of the hardest things a person will do in their lives
> weather
> > or not they are blind. There are all types of miss-conceptions that will
> > effect a interview process, sex, age, race even height and body shape. I
> > believe the most important things are as follows.
> >
> > 1. Showing a proven track record. This can be from academics and or other
> > work experiences.
> >
> > 2. Showing that you bring the proper tools to the job. if it means
> getting
> > a job showing willingness to provide your own access equipment goes a
> long
> > way. This shows that you are willing to do what it takes to complete the
> > job. If a company provides access equipment this is a bonus. I have found
> > that coming to a job with my own access equipment can get me in the door.
> > after being an employee I have found that it is worth it to the
> company to
> > help you with access equipment far offsets the costs to replace you.
> I like
> > this to an electrician or carpenter that must supply their own tools to
> > work. On the other side of this I once interviewed a person that a large
> > part of the interview was all the accommodations this person wanted or
> > needed to work. I can tell you that this was a big turn off. Personally I
> > have taken loans out for access equipment for me this was a good
> financial
> > investment in my career and it has paid me back many times over.
> >
> > 3. Provide a complete set of refferences. This goes a long way for
> > interviewers that may have doughts about a blind prospect.
> >
> > These things will not get you past people that have there mind set
> against
> > blind people, my thoughts on this are your loss and I do not want to work
> > for you anyway.
> >
> > Pleas do not fall into the rut of I can not get a job because I am blind.
> > One thing I do is make it my job to find a job, this is hard to do. If a
> > job is a 40h a week job then one should spend at least 40h a week
> finding a
> > job.
> >
> > Thanks for your time.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs
> > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 9:22 PM
> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > Cc: Christopher Chaltain
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination
> > AgainstDisabled
> >
> > The goal when you're applying for a job is to get to that next step in
> > the process. This is true whether you're blind or sighted. Your resume
> > is meant to get you to a screening interview with HR. Your goal in the
> > screening interview is to get to talk to the hiring manager and so on.
> >
> > Obviously, you'll run into those prejudiced managers where it's a waste
> > of time and if you had disclosed your blindness, you might have saved
> > yourself some time and aggravation, but as others have said, those are
> > the cases where you should look into filing a complaint.
> >
> > Although those narrow minded managers exist, there are a lot more
> > managers out there who just don't know. They see a bunch of candidates
> > who are all qualified and they start widdling down that list to a
> > manageable number. All things being equal between a few candidates,
> > except for blindness, then they may move that blind candidate down a few
> > places on the list just out of ignorance. If one of those candidates
> > higher on the list hits a home run in the interview then the blind
> > candidate may never get to talk to the hiring manager and the company
> > still got a qualified candidate.
> >
> > I want to talk to those managers. I'm confident that if I'm in a face to
> > face interview, I'm going to impress them with what I've accomplished,
> > build a rapport with them and leave that interview knowing that they
> > know they're going to get a rock star if they hire me. I've participated
> > in a lot of interviews, both as a candidate and as a hiring manager, and
> > I know I interview well, and I'm confident that all things being equal,
> > my communication skills and leadership style are going to more than make
> > up for any perceived disadvantage I might have as a blind candidate.
> >
> > As I said before, I don't go out of my way to disclose my blindness, but
> > as appropriate I do mention my blindness in my interests and job
> > experience. I also don't bring up my blindness in the interview, but I
> > do deal with it head on if it does come up.
> >
> > On 11/03/16 09:15, John G Heim via nfbcs wrote:
> >> I don't know ... In the example I gave, I stood up when my name was
> >> called, the woman saw that I had a guide dog and said she didn't want to
> >> interview me. I don't care how good you are at interviewing, you're not
> >> going to over come that. Tracy's story is similar. I've been in
> >> interviews like that too. When all they want to know is how you are
> >> going to get to the bathroom, no amount of interviewing skill is going
> >> to talk them out of it. These things are called prejudices for a
> >> reason. They've made up their mind ahead of time.
> >>
> >> Take those comments from the woman who said it only makes sense to hire
> >> the non-disabled person since they'll be cheaper. Do you think you could
> >> talk her out of that during an interview? I really doubt it. People do
> >> tend to hire the candidate they hit it off with rather than the most
> >> qualified. But I think the vast majority of people like the woman who
> >> made that comment would say, "Wow, that blind guy was really great. Too
> >> bad we can't hire him."
> >>
> >> On 03/10/2016 10:14 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs wrote:
> >>> I've heard arguments on both sides of the debate as to whether to
> >>> disclose or not disclose. For me, I think I do well at face to face
> >>> interviews, so my whole goal during the job search is to get that face
> >>> to face interview. That being said, I don't hide the fact that I'm
> >>> blind on my resume, in my job applications or on my social networking
> >>> sites. I also don't volunteer that information if it comes up during a
> >>> screening interview over the phone, but I'm prepared to address it and
> >>> talk about my accommodations if it does come up.
> >>>
> >>> As far as accommodations go, I'm at a point in my life where I don't
> >>> have a problem purchasing my own accommodations. If laying out a few
> >>> thousand dollars is the difference between being employed or
> >>> unemployed then I consider that money well spent. I understand not
> >>> everyone is in my financial situation, so I'm not saying this applies
> >>> to everyone.
> >>>
> >>> I haven't had to put this to the test yet. My previous job was at a
> >>> company that used Linux, so I was able to do my job using Ubuntu, Orca
> >>> and other free access tools. My current job is with the state
> >>> government, so I had no qualms expecting them to provide me a screen
> >>> reader.
> >>>
> >>> On 10/03/16 16:21, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs wrote:
> >>>> John,
> >>>>
> >>>> I think you raise some interesting points. When I started working some
> >>>> forty years ago, it was common thought that the agency for the blind
> >>>> provided the equipment for a job. Often this was a one-time thing,
> >>>> and of
> >>>> course that has changed. However, particularly with the coming of
> >>>> ADA, but
> >>>> even before that, it became the employer's responsibility to provide
> >>>> needed
> >>>> equipment as a reasonable accommodation. Whether it should be
> >>>> considered or
> >>>> not, that makes us more expensive to hire for the same return,
> >>>> unless, as
> >>>> you say, we can convince an employer that we will produce more.
> >>>> However, I
> >>>> am somewhat uneasy with the concept that we produce more to
> justify our
> >>>> extra equipment because it may not be that easy to achieve. A lot of
> >>>> our
> >>>> reasonable accommodation needs are really pretty small for a large
> >>>> company,
> >>>> but they can be an "Undo burden" on a small company which is where
> >>>> many jobs
> >>>> are. Also, many large companies budget at a department level and one's
> >>>> equipment may need to be paid for by the department that does the
> >>>> hiring. A
> >>>> small expense for a large company might be much more substantial
> at the
> >>>> department level. come
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't claim to have answers, but I believe this problem needs to be
> >>>> considered. Still, can one really claim discrimination if someone
> >>>> else is
> >>>> hired who does not have reasonable accommodation needs? I know that
> >>>> some
> >>>> job applicants are told to iron out their reasonable accommodation
> needs
> >>>> right away, and there is a case to be made for that. One needs to
> >>>> know if
> >>>> they can do the job for one thing. But it really exposes one's hand,
> >>>> so to
> >>>> speak, very early in the process. Another employee who does not
> >>>> require any
> >>>> reasonable accommodations but who had a family situation that causes
> >>>> them to
> >>>> require time off, for example, won't reveal any of this until they
> >>>> have been
> >>>> hired. We need to look for answers to some of this as blind people
> >>>> because
> >>>> we are the ones most effected.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Steve Jacobson
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org
> <mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org?>] On Behalf Of John G
> >>>> Heim via
> >>>> nfbcs
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:51 AM
> >>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>>
> >>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu
> <mailto:jheim at math.wisc.edu>>; Tracy Carcione
> >>>> <carcione at access.net <mailto:carcione at access.net>>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
> >>>> Disabled
> >>>>
> >>>> It'd be funny if it wasn't about putting bread on the table.
> >>>> Another thing in the comments that I think is of interest is that some
> >>>> people blasted the research study saying it was stupid to disclose
> that
> >>>> you are disabled in the cover letter. But both of our examples
> show how
> >>>> futile it is to not disclose it. You're going to end up at a lot of
> >>>> interviews where you have absolutely no chance at the job. There is
> >>>> always some chance you'll wow the interviewer into giving you a
> chance,
> >>>> I suppose. Is it worth it? Just my opinion but I don't think so. I
> think
> >>>> you are better off weeding those people out in the first place.
> >>>>
> >>>> The last time I was applying for jobs, I made myself out to be Super
> >>>> Blind Guy in my cover letter. Of course, I didn't actually use
> that term
> >>>> in my cover letter but I made a point of emphasizing the things I
> could
> >>>> do. I have competed in triathlonns, landscaped the front of my house,
> >>>> done a lot of woodworking. For what it's worth, it seemed to work.
> >>>>
> >>>> You know about Super Blind Guy, right? He and his faithful guide dog
> >>>> companion go around righting wrongs with his razor sharp mind, super
> >>>> hearing, echo location, and super sensitive touch. "Ah ha!" says Super
> >>>> Blind Guy, "I knew the bill was counterfeit because it was dated 1936
> >>>> and Andrew Jackson didn't appear on the twenty until 1938."
> >>>> On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
> >>>>> I once interviewed for a job, taking a bus, a train, and walking
> >>>>> several
> >>>>> blocks in Manhattan, only to find the interviewer could not be
> >>>>> convinced I
> >>>>> wouldn't need someone to lead me to the bathroom. Grrrr.
> >>>>> Tracy
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org
> <mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org?>] On Behalf Of John G
> >>>>> Heim via
> >>>>> nfbcs
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:03 AM
> >>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >>>>> Cc: John G Heim
> >>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
> >>>>> Disabled
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/upshot/fake-cover-letters-expose-discri
> >>>>
> >>>>> mination-against-disabled.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think I have talked on this list about wanting to commission a
> study
> >>>>> similar to the one mentioned in this article except with a blind
> >>>>> applicant
> >>>>> applying for IT jobs. The study has people with spinal injuries and
> >>>>> Asperger's Syndrome applying for accounting jobs. They found disabled
> >>>>> applicants were 26% less likely to get a call back. Of particular
> >>>>> interest
> >>>>> are some of the comments.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Given two candidates of roughly equal qualifications the rational
> >>>> decision
> >>>>> would be to hire the one without disabilities. It's going to be less
> >>>>> expensive, on average . [...] So statistically, a disabled job
> >>>>> applicant
> >>>>> would need to be sufficiently better qualified for the job to
> >>>>> overcome the
> >>>>> disability to be the 'correct' choice."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Long time readers of this list will know I've speculated about this
> >>>>> effect
> >>>>> for years. My guess is that this factor is much greater for blind
> >>>> applicants
> >>>>> than it is for the types of disabilities in the study. A blind person
> >>>> does,
> >>>>> in fact, have greater challenges to over come. But I suspect that
> even
> >>>> worse
> >>>>> is the lack of understanding about just how much a blind
> >>>>> technologist can
> >>>>> do. A perspective employer once flatly refused to interview me
> when she
> >>>> saw
> >>>>> that I was blind. She essentially accused me of faking my resume and
> >>>> simply
> >>>>> would not believe a blind person could use a computer.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nfbcs mailing list
> >>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nfbcs:
> >>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nfbcs mailing list
> >>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nfbcs:
> >>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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