[nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against Disabled

Sun Mar 13 00:22:54 UTC 2016

In past someone could apply for a loan from a bank or credit union 
where they had an account.  Before 2008 they'd have got the loan 
lots easier than today.  Online operations exist for lending money 
though and these may either be part of banks at some remote level or 
completely separate from the banking system  In all cases you best 
be fully aware of all provisions of that loan before you accept it.

wrote:

> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 16:07:46
> From: Robert Spangler via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against Disabled
> 
> I totally get your point.  It's pure reality.  I've been fortunate because
> state services purchased me a copy of JAWS but if I needed something else,
> especially if the job were going to be long-term and full time, I would just
> take out a loan and buy it, knowing that I would eventually be able to pay
> it off.  I guess there's the option of reopening the state services case but
> that can often be a lengthy procedure and may not be completed in adequate
> time.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher
> Chaltain via nfbcs
> Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:40 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
> Disabled
>
> I don't actually think I'm missing the point. I totally agree with you.
> It's totally legal to ask for accommodations and you're absolutely not doing
> anything wrong by asking for accommodations. I don't' mean to imply that
> people shouldn't be asking for accommodations, and I apologize if that's how
> I came across.
>
> However, I think we're doing people a disservice if we equate asking for an
> accommodation with getting the standard equipment that's automatically
> provided to every employee. It's not the same. Human nature says that if I'm
> going to have to toss a coin between two equally good candidates, except
> that one is going to create more work for me to follow the process of
> getting special accommodations, then I might be tempted to go with the other
> candidate that I think is just as good and should be a bit less
> administrative work for me. I'm not saying it's fair or it's right or it
> should keep anyone from asking for special accommodations; I'm just saying
> that it's out there and you're kidding yourself if you think asking for a
> screen reader is off set by saying you don't need a monitor.
>
> I'm also speaking just for myself on both this issue and the issue of
> disclosing your blindness during the job search process. I would never
> presume to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do or that what
> works for me will work for anyone else. I know my own financial situation
> and what I'm prepared to do with respect to accommodations. I also know my
> own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to interviews, and I'm convinced
> that what I do works for me. I'll tell anyone what I do and why I do it, and
> maybe it'll help someone else, but I'm absolutely not telling anyone else
> what to do or what will work for them in their situation.
>
> On 12/03/16 11:21, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>> You are missing the point. The point is that you have every right to
>> ask for an accomadation. Lets make sure that is perfectly clear. First
>> of all, legally, you have every right. But more importantly, you
>> aren't doing anything wrong by asking for an accomadation.
>>
>> Now, as a practical matter, it may not be wise.  I can go along with
>> that. But the last thing we should be doing on this list is implying
>> that you are being unfair to your employer by asking for an accomadation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 03/11/2016 09:03 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs wrote:
>>> This is true, but it's frequently a little bit more complicated than
>>> what you're describing.
>>>
>>> First, a hiring manager typically doesn't need to do anything to get
>>> a new employee standard equipment other than letting someone know I
>>> have a new employee starting on this date, Whereas, special equipment
>>> usually requires following a procurement process and might end up
>>> counting against the hiring manager's departmental budget. Even if
>>> the approval is pretty much a rubber stamp, it's more work for the
>>> hiring manager, probably involves getting some approvals and
>>> providing a justification and may count against a departmental budget
>>> meaning something else may not get purchased. Whether this is fair or
>>> not, it does put a blind candidate at a disadvantage.
>>>
>>> Finally, special equipment may cost more than standard equipment. A
>>> copy of JAWS is going to cost a lot more than a monitor and a mouse.
>>> Plus, it's not like the company is going to know ahead of time that
>>> they don't need a monitor or a mouse for a blind employee. If a blind
>>> employee doesn't have a monitor on their desk that just means there's
>>> an extra monitor somewhere in the company. It doesn't mean the
>>> company actually save $100 by not buying a monitor. Besides, I've
>>> always had a monitor everywhere I've worked. I'm frequently asking
>>> someone to look at my screen to take a peek at some code, a document
>>> or some presentation.
>>>
>>> On 11/03/16 10:59, Star Gazer via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>                 John is absolutely correct here. Unless you're
>>>> working as an independent contractor, employers purchase necessairy
>>>> job materials all the time.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>> Heim via nfbcs
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 10:37 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination
>>>> Against Disabled
>>>>
>>>> But employers pick up the tab for employees equipment all the time.
>>>> Imagine a sighted person getting hired at a company that made
>>>> accessibility tools. Everybody else who works at the company is
>>>> blind.
>>>> They sit him down in front of a computer with no monitor, just a
>>>> headset. He says, "I'm going to need a monitor." And the boss says,
>>>> "Are you kidding?
>>>> You expect me to go out and spend my own money on some stupid visual
>>>> device just for you?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 03/11/2016 07:02 AM, Gary Wunder via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>> I have a reasonable understanding of the ADA when it comes to how
>>>>> reasonable accommodation is interpreted, but I would argue for any
>>>>> client who pressed the state agency to provide the initial
>>>>> equipment for a job. It is one thing to demonstrate to an employer
>>>>> that I have worth and then expect him to pick up the same cost that
>>>>> he does for others, but I think it is a very different thing for an
>>>>> employer who doesn't know me or much of anything about blind people
>>>>> to be told that I will need screen reading software, a notetaker,
>>>>> and perhaps a scanner and some additional software. For the agency
>>>>> to drop the ball
>>>> after carrying it 90% of the way seems foolish to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>> Jacobson via nfbcs
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 4:21 PM
>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>> Cc: Steve Jacobson; 'Tracy Carcione'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination
>>>>> Against Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you raise some interesting points.  When I started working
>>>>> some forty years ago, it was common thought that the agency for the
>>>>> blind provided the equipment for a job.  Often this was a one-time
>>>>> thing, and of course that has changed.  However, particularly with
>>>>> the coming of ADA, but even before that, it became the employer's
>>>>> responsibility to provide needed equipment as a reasonable
>>>>> accommodation.  Whether it should be considered or not, that makes
>>>>> us more expensive to hire for the same return, unless, as you say,
>>>>> we can convince an employer that we will produce more.  However, I
>>>>> am somewhat uneasy with the concept that we produce more to justify
>>>>> our extra equipment because it may not be that easy to achieve.  A
>>>>> lot of our reasonable accommodation needs are really pretty small
>>>>> for a large company, but they can be an "Undo burden" on a small
>>>>> company which is where many jobs are.  Also, many large companies
>>>>> budget at a department level and one's equipment may need to be
>>>>> paid for by the department that does the hiring.  A small expense
>>>>> for a large company might be much more substantial at the
>>>>> department level.  come
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't claim to have answers, but I believe this problem needs to
>>>>> be considered.  Still, can one really claim discrimination if
>>>>> someone else is hired who does not have reasonable accommodation
>>>>> needs?  I know that some job applicants are told to iron out their
>>>>> reasonable accommodation needs right away, and there is a case to
>>>>> be made for that.  One needs to know if they can do the job for one
>>>>> thing.  But it really exposes one's hand, so to speak, very early in
> the process.
>>>>> Another employee who does not require any reasonable accommodations
>>>>> but who had a family situation that causes them to require time
>>>>> off, for example, won't reveal any of this until they have been
>>>>> hired.  We need to look for answers to some of this as blind people
>>>>> because we are
>>>> the ones most effected.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>>> Heim via nfbcs
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:51 AM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>; Tracy Carcione
>>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination
>>>>> Against Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>> It'd be funny if it wasn't about putting bread on the table.
>>>>> Another thing in the comments that I think is of interest is that
>>>>> some people blasted the research study saying it was stupid to
>>>>> disclose that you are disabled in the cover letter. But both of our
>>>>> examples show how futile it is to not disclose it.  You're going to
>>>>> end up at a lot of interviews where you have absolutely no chance at
> the job.
>>>>> There is always some chance you'll wow the interviewer into giving
>>>>> you a chance, I suppose. Is it worth it? Just my opinion but I
>>>>> don't think so. I think you are better off weeding those people out
>>>>> in the first
>>>> place.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last time I was applying for jobs, I made myself out to be
>>>>> Super Blind Guy in my cover letter. Of course, I didn't actually
>>>>> use that term in my cover letter but I made a point of emphasizing
>>>>> the things I could do. I have competed in triathlonns, landscaped
>>>>> the front of my house, done a lot of woodworking. For what it's
>>>>> worth, it seemed to work.
>>>>>
>>>>> You know about Super Blind Guy, right? He and his faithful guide
>>>>> dog companion  go around righting wrongs with his razor sharp mind,
>>>>> super hearing, echo location, and super sensitive touch. "Ah ha!"
>>>>> says Super Blind Guy, "I knew the bill was counterfeit because it
>>>>> was dated 1936 and Andrew Jackson didn't appear on the twenty until
> 1938."
>>>>> On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>> I once interviewed for a job, taking a bus, a train, and walking
>>>>>> several blocks in Manhattan, only to find the interviewer could
>>>>>> not be convinced I wouldn't need someone to lead me to the bathroom.
>>>>>> Grrrr.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>>>> Heim via nfbcs
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:03 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Cc: John G Heim
>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>>>> Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/upshot/fake-cover-letters-expo
>>>>> se-
>>>>> discri
>>>>>> mination-against-disabled.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I have talked on this list about wanting to commission a
>>>>>> study similar to the one mentioned in this article except with a
>>>>>> blind applicant applying for IT jobs. The study has people with
>>>>>> spinal injuries and Asperger's Syndrome applying for accounting jobs.
>>>>>> They found disabled applicants were 26% less likely to get a call
>>>>>> back. Of particular interest are some of the comments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Given two candidates of roughly equal qualifications the rational
>>>>> decision
>>>>>> would be to hire the one without disabilities. It's going to be
>>>>>> less expensive, on average . [...] So statistically, a disabled
>>>>>> job applicant would need to be sufficiently better qualified for
>>>>>> the job to overcome the disability to be the 'correct' choice."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Long time readers of this list will know I've speculated about
>>>>>> this effect for years. My guess is that this factor is much
>>>>>> greater for blind
>>>>> applicants
>>>>>> than it is for the types of disabilities in the study. A blind
>>>>>> person
>>>>> does,
>>>>>> in fact, have greater challenges to over come. But I suspect that
>>>>>> even
>>>>> worse
>>>>>> is the lack of understanding about just how much a blind
>>>>>> technologist can do. A perspective employer once flatly refused to
>>>>>> interview me when she
>>>>> saw
>>>>>> that I was blind. She essentially accused me of faking my resume
>>>>>> and
>>>>> simply
>>>>>> would not believe a blind person could use a computer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> n
>>>>>> et
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> e
>>>>>> du
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> si.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> du
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> om
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>>>
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
>
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