[nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against Disabled

Sun Mar 13 02:13:03 UTC 2016

Certain companies will not allow installation of any software unless they
buy it. I just got a software developer position at USAA an dI can not use
my version of ZoomText.

They provided: ZoomText, Magnilink CCTV camera, laptop to bring to meeting
so I can use the Magnilink, two 27 inch monitors.

Another blind employee who has worked for them for 20+ years got a $14,000
braille displayed provided by the company,

It really depends on where you work how will they are to purchase equipment.

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Jude DaShiell via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
wrote:

> In past someone could apply for a loan from a bank or credit union where
> they had an account.  Before 2008 they'd have got the loan lots easier than
> today.  Online operations exist for lending money though and these may
> either be part of banks at some remote level or completely separate from
> the banking system  In all cases you best be fully aware of all provisions
> of that loan before you accept it.
>
> wrote:
>
> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 16:07:46
>> From: Robert Spangler via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>> Disabled
>>
>> I totally get your point.  It's pure reality.  I've been fortunate because
>> state services purchased me a copy of JAWS but if I needed something else,
>> especially if the job were going to be long-term and full time, I would
>> just
>> take out a loan and buy it, knowing that I would eventually be able to pay
>> it off.  I guess there's the option of reopening the state services case
>> but
>> that can often be a lengthy procedure and may not be completed in adequate
>> time.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher
>> Chaltain via nfbcs
>> Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:40 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>> Disabled
>>
>> I don't actually think I'm missing the point. I totally agree with you.
>> It's totally legal to ask for accommodations and you're absolutely not
>> doing
>> anything wrong by asking for accommodations. I don't' mean to imply that
>> people shouldn't be asking for accommodations, and I apologize if that's
>> how
>> I came across.
>>
>> However, I think we're doing people a disservice if we equate asking for
>> an
>> accommodation with getting the standard equipment that's automatically
>> provided to every employee. It's not the same. Human nature says that if
>> I'm
>> going to have to toss a coin between two equally good candidates, except
>> that one is going to create more work for me to follow the process of
>> getting special accommodations, then I might be tempted to go with the
>> other
>> candidate that I think is just as good and should be a bit less
>> administrative work for me. I'm not saying it's fair or it's right or it
>> should keep anyone from asking for special accommodations; I'm just saying
>> that it's out there and you're kidding yourself if you think asking for a
>> screen reader is off set by saying you don't need a monitor.
>>
>> I'm also speaking just for myself on both this issue and the issue of
>> disclosing your blindness during the job search process. I would never
>> presume to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do or that what
>> works for me will work for anyone else. I know my own financial situation
>> and what I'm prepared to do with respect to accommodations. I also know my
>> own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to interviews, and I'm
>> convinced
>> that what I do works for me. I'll tell anyone what I do and why I do it,
>> and
>> maybe it'll help someone else, but I'm absolutely not telling anyone else
>> what to do or what will work for them in their situation.
>>
>> On 12/03/16 11:21, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>>
>>> You are missing the point. The point is that you have every right to
>>> ask for an accomadation. Lets make sure that is perfectly clear. First
>>> of all, legally, you have every right. But more importantly, you
>>> aren't doing anything wrong by asking for an accomadation.
>>>
>>> Now, as a practical matter, it may not be wise.  I can go along with
>>> that. But the last thing we should be doing on this list is implying
>>> that you are being unfair to your employer by asking for an accomadation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2016 09:03 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is true, but it's frequently a little bit more complicated than
>>>> what you're describing.
>>>>
>>>> First, a hiring manager typically doesn't need to do anything to get
>>>> a new employee standard equipment other than letting someone know I
>>>> have a new employee starting on this date, Whereas, special equipment
>>>> usually requires following a procurement process and might end up
>>>> counting against the hiring manager's departmental budget. Even if
>>>> the approval is pretty much a rubber stamp, it's more work for the
>>>> hiring manager, probably involves getting some approvals and
>>>> providing a justification and may count against a departmental budget
>>>> meaning something else may not get purchased. Whether this is fair or
>>>> not, it does put a blind candidate at a disadvantage.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, special equipment may cost more than standard equipment. A
>>>> copy of JAWS is going to cost a lot more than a monitor and a mouse.
>>>> Plus, it's not like the company is going to know ahead of time that
>>>> they don't need a monitor or a mouse for a blind employee. If a blind
>>>> employee doesn't have a monitor on their desk that just means there's
>>>> an extra monitor somewhere in the company. It doesn't mean the
>>>> company actually save $100 by not buying a monitor. Besides, I've
>>>> always had a monitor everywhere I've worked. I'm frequently asking
>>>> someone to look at my screen to take a peek at some code, a document
>>>> or some presentation.
>>>>
>>>> On 11/03/16 10:59, Star Gazer via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>                 John is absolutely correct here. Unless you're
>>>>> working as an independent contractor, employers purchase necessairy
>>>>> job materials all the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>>> Heim via nfbcs
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 10:37 AM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination
>>>>> Against Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>> But employers pick up the tab for employees equipment all the time.
>>>>> Imagine a sighted person getting hired at a company that made
>>>>> accessibility tools. Everybody else who works at the company is
>>>>> blind.
>>>>> They sit him down in front of a computer with no monitor, just a
>>>>> headset. He says, "I'm going to need a monitor." And the boss says,
>>>>> "Are you kidding?
>>>>> You expect me to go out and spend my own money on some stupid visual
>>>>> device just for you?"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/11/2016 07:02 AM, Gary Wunder via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a reasonable understanding of the ADA when it comes to how
>>>>>> reasonable accommodation is interpreted, but I would argue for any
>>>>>> client who pressed the state agency to provide the initial
>>>>>> equipment for a job. It is one thing to demonstrate to an employer
>>>>>> that I have worth and then expect him to pick up the same cost that
>>>>>> he does for others, but I think it is a very different thing for an
>>>>>> employer who doesn't know me or much of anything about blind people
>>>>>> to be told that I will need screen reading software, a notetaker,
>>>>>> and perhaps a scanner and some additional software. For the agency
>>>>>> to drop the ball
>>>>>>
>>>>> after carrying it 90% of the way seems foolish to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>>> Jacobson via nfbcs
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 4:21 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Cc: Steve Jacobson; 'Tracy Carcione'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination
>>>>>> Against Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you raise some interesting points.  When I started working
>>>>>> some forty years ago, it was common thought that the agency for the
>>>>>> blind provided the equipment for a job.  Often this was a one-time
>>>>>> thing, and of course that has changed.  However, particularly with
>>>>>> the coming of ADA, but even before that, it became the employer's
>>>>>> responsibility to provide needed equipment as a reasonable
>>>>>> accommodation.  Whether it should be considered or not, that makes
>>>>>> us more expensive to hire for the same return, unless, as you say,
>>>>>> we can convince an employer that we will produce more.  However, I
>>>>>> am somewhat uneasy with the concept that we produce more to justify
>>>>>> our extra equipment because it may not be that easy to achieve.  A
>>>>>> lot of our reasonable accommodation needs are really pretty small
>>>>>> for a large company, but they can be an "Undo burden" on a small
>>>>>> company which is where many jobs are.  Also, many large companies
>>>>>> budget at a department level and one's equipment may need to be
>>>>>> paid for by the department that does the hiring.  A small expense
>>>>>> for a large company might be much more substantial at the
>>>>>> department level.  come
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't claim to have answers, but I believe this problem needs to
>>>>>> be considered.  Still, can one really claim discrimination if
>>>>>> someone else is hired who does not have reasonable accommodation
>>>>>> needs?  I know that some job applicants are told to iron out their
>>>>>> reasonable accommodation needs right away, and there is a case to
>>>>>> be made for that.  One needs to know if they can do the job for one
>>>>>> thing.  But it really exposes one's hand, so to speak, very early in
>>>>>>
>>>>> the process.
>>
>>> Another employee who does not require any reasonable accommodations
>>>>>> but who had a family situation that causes them to require time
>>>>>> off, for example, won't reveal any of this until they have been
>>>>>> hired.  We need to look for answers to some of this as blind people
>>>>>> because we are
>>>>>>
>>>>> the ones most effected.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>>>> Heim via nfbcs
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:51 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>; Tracy Carcione
>>>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination
>>>>>> Against Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It'd be funny if it wasn't about putting bread on the table.
>>>>>> Another thing in the comments that I think is of interest is that
>>>>>> some people blasted the research study saying it was stupid to
>>>>>> disclose that you are disabled in the cover letter. But both of our
>>>>>> examples show how futile it is to not disclose it.  You're going to
>>>>>> end up at a lot of interviews where you have absolutely no chance at
>>>>>>
>>>>> the job.
>>
>>> There is always some chance you'll wow the interviewer into giving
>>>>>> you a chance, I suppose. Is it worth it? Just my opinion but I
>>>>>> don't think so. I think you are better off weeding those people out
>>>>>> in the first
>>>>>>
>>>>> place.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last time I was applying for jobs, I made myself out to be
>>>>>> Super Blind Guy in my cover letter. Of course, I didn't actually
>>>>>> use that term in my cover letter but I made a point of emphasizing
>>>>>> the things I could do. I have competed in triathlonns, landscaped
>>>>>> the front of my house, done a lot of woodworking. For what it's
>>>>>> worth, it seemed to work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know about Super Blind Guy, right? He and his faithful guide
>>>>>> dog companion  go around righting wrongs with his razor sharp mind,
>>>>>> super hearing, echo location, and super sensitive touch. "Ah ha!"
>>>>>> says Super Blind Guy, "I knew the bill was counterfeit because it
>>>>>> was dated 1936 and Andrew Jackson didn't appear on the twenty until
>>>>>>
>>>>> 1938."
>>
>>> On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I once interviewed for a job, taking a bus, a train, and walking
>>>>>>> several blocks in Manhattan, only to find the interviewer could
>>>>>>> not be convinced I wouldn't need someone to lead me to the bathroom.
>>>>>>> Grrrr.
>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>>>>> Heim via nfbcs
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:03 AM
>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>> Cc: John G Heim
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>>>>> Disabled
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/upshot/fake-cover-letters-expo
>>>>>> se-
>>>>>> discri
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mination-against-disabled.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think I have talked on this list about wanting to commission a
>>>>>>> study similar to the one mentioned in this article except with a
>>>>>>> blind applicant applying for IT jobs. The study has people with
>>>>>>> spinal injuries and Asperger's Syndrome applying for accounting jobs.
>>>>>>> They found disabled applicants were 26% less likely to get a call
>>>>>>> back. Of particular interest are some of the comments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Given two candidates of roughly equal qualifications the rational
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> would be to hire the one without disabilities. It's going to be
>>>>>>> less expensive, on average . [...] So statistically, a disabled
>>>>>>> job applicant would need to be sufficiently better qualified for
>>>>>>> the job to overcome the disability to be the 'correct' choice."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Long time readers of this list will know I've speculated about
>>>>>>> this effect for years. My guess is that this factor is much
>>>>>>> greater for blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> applicants
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> than it is for the types of disabilities in the study. A blind
>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> does,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in fact, have greater challenges to over come. But I suspect that
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> worse
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is the lack of understanding about just how much a blind
>>>>>>> technologist can do. A perspective employer once flatly refused to
>>>>>>> interview me when she
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> saw
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that I was blind. She essentially accused me of faking my resume
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> would not believe a blind person could use a computer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>> et
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>> du
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4
>>>>>> 0vi
>>>>>> si.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthl
>>>>>> ink
>>>>>> .net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wis
>>>>>> c.e
>>>>>> du
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pickrellrebecca%4
>>>>> 0gmail.c
>>>>>
>>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> nfbcs:
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>>>>> com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> m
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Christopher (CJ)
>> chaltain at Gmail
>>
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