[nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against Disabled

Mon Mar 14 02:21:58 UTC 2016

Sorry, there are too many negatives in your statement to know if I 
should answer yes or no. I was never arguing that it's unfair for a 
blind person to expect their employer to pay for adaptive equipment. I'd 
go on, but I'd just be repeating myself.

On 13/03/16 19:42, John G. Heim wrote:
> Chris, are you saying you were not arguing that it is unfair for a blind
> person to expect his employer to pay for adaptive equipment? Yes or no.
>
>
>
>
> On 03/12/2016 11:39 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>> I don't actually think I'm missing the point. I totally agree with
>> you. It's totally legal to ask for accommodations and you're
>> absolutely not doing anything wrong by asking for accommodations. I
>> don’t' mean to imply that people shouldn't be asking for
>> accommodations, and I apologize if that's how I came across.
>>
>> However, I think we're doing people a disservice if we equate asking
>> for an accommodation with getting the standard equipment that's
>> automatically provided to every employee. It's not the same. Human
>> nature says that if I'm going to have to toss a coin between two
>> equally good candidates, except that one is going to create more work
>> for me to follow the process of getting special accommodations, then I
>> might be tempted to go with the other candidate that I think is just
>> as good and should be a bit less administrative work for me. I'm not
>> saying it's fair or it's right or it should keep anyone from asking
>> for special accommodations; I'm just saying that it's out there and
>> you're kidding yourself if you think asking for a screen reader is off
>> set by saying you don't need a monitor.
>>
>> I'm also speaking just for myself on both this issue and the issue of
>> disclosing your blindness during the job search process. I would never
>> presume to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do or that
>> what works for me will work for anyone else. I know my own financial
>> situation and what I'm prepared to do with respect to accommodations.
>> I also know my own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to
>> interviews, and I'm convinced that what I do works for me. I'll tell
>> anyone what I do and why I do it, and maybe it'll help someone else,
>> but I'm absolutely not telling anyone else what to do or what will
>> work for them in their situation.
>>
>> On 12/03/16 11:21, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>>> You are missing the point. The point is that you have every right to ask
>>> for an accomadation. Lets make sure that is perfectly clear. First of
>>> all, legally, you have every right. But more importantly, you aren't
>>> doing anything wrong by asking for an accomadation.
>>>
>>> Now, as a practical matter, it may not be wise.  I can go along with
>>> that. But the last thing we should be doing on this list is implying
>>> that you are being unfair to your employer by asking for an
>>> accomadation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2016 09:03 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs wrote:
>>>> This is true, but it's frequently a little bit more complicated than
>>>> what you're describing.
>>>>
>>>> First, a hiring manager typically doesn't need to do anything to get a
>>>> new employee standard equipment other than letting someone know I have
>>>> a new employee starting on this date, Whereas, special equipment
>>>> usually requires following a procurement process and might end up
>>>> counting against the hiring manager's departmental budget. Even if the
>>>> approval is pretty much a rubber stamp, it's more work for the hiring
>>>> manager, probably involves getting some approvals and providing a
>>>> justification and may count against a departmental budget meaning
>>>> something else may not get purchased. Whether this is fair or not, it
>>>> does put a blind candidate at a disadvantage.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, special equipment may cost more than standard equipment. A
>>>> copy of JAWS is going to cost a lot more than a monitor and a mouse.
>>>> Plus, it's not like the company is going to know ahead of time that
>>>> they don't need a monitor or a mouse for a blind employee. If a blind
>>>> employee doesn't have a monitor on their desk that just means there's
>>>> an extra monitor somewhere in the company. It doesn't mean the company
>>>> actually save $100 by not buying a monitor. Besides, I've always had a
>>>> monitor everywhere I've worked. I'm frequently asking someone to look
>>>> at my screen to take a peek at some code, a document or some
>>>> presentation.
>>>>
>>>> On 11/03/16 10:59, Star Gazer via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>                 John is absolutely correct here. Unless
>>>>> you're working as an independent contractor, employers purchase
>>>>> necessairy
>>>>> job materials all the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>>> Heim via
>>>>> nfbcs
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 10:37 AM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>>> Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>> But employers pick up the tab for employees equipment all the time.
>>>>> Imagine a sighted person getting hired at a company that made
>>>>> accessibility
>>>>> tools. Everybody else who works at the company is blind.
>>>>> They sit him down in front of a computer with no monitor, just a
>>>>> headset. He
>>>>> says, "I'm going to need a monitor." And the boss says, "Are you
>>>>> kidding?
>>>>> You expect me to go out and spend my own money on some stupid visual
>>>>> device
>>>>> just for you?"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/11/2016 07:02 AM, Gary Wunder via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>> I have a reasonable understanding of the ADA when it comes to how
>>>>>> reasonable accommodation is interpreted, but I would argue for any
>>>>>> client who pressed the state agency to provide the initial equipment
>>>>>> for a job. It is one thing to demonstrate to an employer that I have
>>>>>> worth and then expect him to pick up the same cost that he does for
>>>>>> others, but I think it is a very different thing for an employer who
>>>>>> doesn't know me or much of anything about blind people to be told
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> I will need screen reading software, a notetaker, and perhaps a
>>>>>> scanner and some additional software. For the agency to drop the ball
>>>>> after carrying it 90% of the way seems foolish to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>>> Jacobson via nfbcs
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 4:21 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Cc: Steve Jacobson; 'Tracy Carcione'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>>>> Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you raise some interesting points.  When I started working
>>>>>> some forty years ago, it was common thought that the agency for the
>>>>>> blind provided the equipment for a job.  Often this was a one-time
>>>>>> thing, and of course that has changed.  However, particularly with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> coming of ADA, but even before that, it became the employer's
>>>>>> responsibility to provide needed equipment as a reasonable
>>>>>> accommodation.  Whether it should be considered or not, that makes us
>>>>>> more expensive to hire for the same return, unless, as you say, we
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> convince an employer that we will produce more.  However, I am
>>>>>> somewhat uneasy with the concept that we produce more to justify our
>>>>>> extra equipment because it may not be that easy to achieve.  A lot of
>>>>>> our reasonable accommodation needs are really pretty small for a
>>>>>> large
>>>>>> company, but they can be an "Undo burden" on a small company which is
>>>>>> where many jobs are.  Also, many large companies budget at a
>>>>>> department level and one's equipment may need to be paid for by the
>>>>>> department that does the hiring.  A small expense for a large company
>>>>>> might be much more substantial at the department level. come
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't claim to have answers, but I believe this problem needs to be
>>>>>> considered.  Still, can one really claim discrimination if someone
>>>>>> else is hired who does not have reasonable accommodation needs?  I
>>>>>> know that some job applicants are told to iron out their reasonable
>>>>>> accommodation needs right away, and there is a case to be made for
>>>>>> that.  One needs to know if they can do the job for one thing. But it
>>>>>> really exposes one's hand, so to speak, very early in the process.
>>>>>> Another employee who does not require any reasonable accommodations
>>>>>> but who had a family situation that causes them to require time off,
>>>>>> for example, won't reveal any of this until they have been hired.  We
>>>>>> need to look for answers to some of this as blind people because
>>>>>> we are
>>>>> the ones most effected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>>>> Heim
>>>>>> via nfbcs
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:51 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>; Tracy Carcione
>>>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>>>> Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It'd be funny if it wasn't about putting bread on the table.
>>>>>> Another thing in the comments that I think is of interest is that
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> people blasted the research study saying it was stupid to disclose
>>>>>> that you are disabled in the cover letter. But both of our examples
>>>>>> show how futile it is to not disclose it.  You're going to end up
>>>>>> at a
>>>>>> lot of interviews where you have absolutely no chance at the job.
>>>>>> There is always some chance you'll wow the interviewer into giving
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> a chance, I suppose. Is it worth it? Just my opinion but I don't
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> so. I think you are better off weeding those people out in the first
>>>>> place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last time I was applying for jobs, I made myself out to be Super
>>>>>> Blind Guy in my cover letter. Of course, I didn't actually use that
>>>>>> term in my cover letter but I made a point of emphasizing the
>>>>>> things I
>>>>>> could do. I have competed in triathlonns, landscaped the front of my
>>>>>> house, done a lot of woodworking. For what it's worth, it seemed to
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know about Super Blind Guy, right? He and his faithful guide dog
>>>>>> companion  go around righting wrongs with his razor sharp mind, super
>>>>>> hearing, echo location, and super sensitive touch. "Ah ha!" says
>>>>>> Super
>>>>>> Blind Guy, "I knew the bill was counterfeit because it was dated 1936
>>>>>> and Andrew Jackson didn't appear on the twenty until 1938."
>>>>>> On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>> I once interviewed for a job, taking a bus, a train, and walking
>>>>>>> several blocks in Manhattan, only to find the interviewer could not
>>>>>>> be convinced I wouldn't need someone to lead me to the bathroom.
>>>>>>> Grrrr.
>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>>>>> Heim via nfbcs
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:03 AM
>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>> Cc: John G Heim
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>>>>> Disabled
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/upshot/fake-cover-letters-expose-
>>>>>>
>>>>>> discri
>>>>>>> mination-against-disabled.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think I have talked on this list about wanting to commission a
>>>>>>> study similar to the one mentioned in this article except with a
>>>>>>> blind applicant applying for IT jobs. The study has people with
>>>>>>> spinal injuries and Asperger's Syndrome applying for accounting
>>>>>>> jobs.
>>>>>>> They found disabled applicants were 26% less likely to get a call
>>>>>>> back. Of particular interest are some of the comments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Given two candidates of roughly equal qualifications the rational
>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>> would be to hire the one without disabilities. It's going to be less
>>>>>>> expensive, on average . [...] So statistically, a disabled job
>>>>>>> applicant would need to be sufficiently better qualified for the job
>>>>>>> to overcome the disability to be the 'correct' choice."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Long time readers of this list will know I've speculated about this
>>>>>>> effect for years. My guess is that this factor is much greater for
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> applicants
>>>>>>> than it is for the types of disabilities in the study. A blind
>>>>>>> person
>>>>>> does,
>>>>>>> in fact, have greater challenges to over come. But I suspect that
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>> worse
>>>>>>> is the lack of understanding about just how much a blind
>>>>>>> technologist
>>>>>>> can do. A perspective employer once flatly refused to interview me
>>>>>>> when she
>>>>>> saw
>>>>>>> that I was blind. She essentially accused me of faking my resume and
>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>> would not believe a blind person could use a computer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>> et
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>> du
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> du
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>

-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail