[nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against Disabled

[John G. Heim]

Chris, are you saying you were not arguing that it is unfair for a blind 
person to expect his employer to pay for adaptive equipment? Yes or no.




On 03/12/2016 11:39 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> I don't actually think I'm missing the point. I totally agree with 
> you. It's totally legal to ask for accommodations and you're 
> absolutely not doing anything wrong by asking for accommodations. I 
> don’t' mean to imply that people shouldn't be asking for 
> accommodations, and I apologize if that's how I came across.
>
> However, I think we're doing people a disservice if we equate asking 
> for an accommodation with getting the standard equipment that's 
> automatically provided to every employee. It's not the same. Human 
> nature says that if I'm going to have to toss a coin between two 
> equally good candidates, except that one is going to create more work 
> for me to follow the process of getting special accommodations, then I 
> might be tempted to go with the other candidate that I think is just 
> as good and should be a bit less administrative work for me. I'm not 
> saying it's fair or it's right or it should keep anyone from asking 
> for special accommodations; I'm just saying that it's out there and 
> you're kidding yourself if you think asking for a screen reader is off 
> set by saying you don't need a monitor.
>
> I'm also speaking just for myself on both this issue and the issue of 
> disclosing your blindness during the job search process. I would never 
> presume to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do or that 
> what works for me will work for anyone else. I know my own financial 
> situation and what I'm prepared to do with respect to accommodations. 
> I also know my own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to 
> interviews, and I'm convinced that what I do works for me. I'll tell 
> anyone what I do and why I do it, and maybe it'll help someone else, 
> but I'm absolutely not telling anyone else what to do or what will 
> work for them in their situation.
>
> On 12/03/16 11:21, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>> You are missing the point. The point is that you have every right to ask
>> for an accomadation. Lets make sure that is perfectly clear. First of
>> all, legally, you have every right. But more importantly, you aren't
>> doing anything wrong by asking for an accomadation.
>>
>> Now, as a practical matter, it may not be wise.  I can go along with
>> that. But the last thing we should be doing on this list is implying
>> that you are being unfair to your employer by asking for an 
>> accomadation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 03/11/2016 09:03 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs wrote:
>>> This is true, but it's frequently a little bit more complicated than
>>> what you're describing.
>>>
>>> First, a hiring manager typically doesn't need to do anything to get a
>>> new employee standard equipment other than letting someone know I have
>>> a new employee starting on this date, Whereas, special equipment
>>> usually requires following a procurement process and might end up
>>> counting against the hiring manager's departmental budget. Even if the
>>> approval is pretty much a rubber stamp, it's more work for the hiring
>>> manager, probably involves getting some approvals and providing a
>>> justification and may count against a departmental budget meaning
>>> something else may not get purchased. Whether this is fair or not, it
>>> does put a blind candidate at a disadvantage.
>>>
>>> Finally, special equipment may cost more than standard equipment. A
>>> copy of JAWS is going to cost a lot more than a monitor and a mouse.
>>> Plus, it's not like the company is going to know ahead of time that
>>> they don't need a monitor or a mouse for a blind employee. If a blind
>>> employee doesn't have a monitor on their desk that just means there's
>>> an extra monitor somewhere in the company. It doesn't mean the company
>>> actually save $100 by not buying a monitor. Besides, I've always had a
>>> monitor everywhere I've worked. I'm frequently asking someone to look
>>> at my screen to take a peek at some code, a document or some
>>> presentation.
>>>
>>> On 11/03/16 10:59, Star Gazer via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>                 John is absolutely correct here. Unless
>>>> you're working as an independent contractor, employers purchase
>>>> necessairy
>>>> job materials all the time.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>> Heim via
>>>> nfbcs
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 10:37 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>> Disabled
>>>>
>>>> But employers pick up the tab for employees equipment all the time.
>>>> Imagine a sighted person getting hired at a company that made
>>>> accessibility
>>>> tools. Everybody else who works at the company is blind.
>>>> They sit him down in front of a computer with no monitor, just a
>>>> headset. He
>>>> says, "I'm going to need a monitor." And the boss says, "Are you
>>>> kidding?
>>>> You expect me to go out and spend my own money on some stupid visual
>>>> device
>>>> just for you?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 03/11/2016 07:02 AM, Gary Wunder via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>> I have a reasonable understanding of the ADA when it comes to how
>>>>> reasonable accommodation is interpreted, but I would argue for any
>>>>> client who pressed the state agency to provide the initial equipment
>>>>> for a job. It is one thing to demonstrate to an employer that I have
>>>>> worth and then expect him to pick up the same cost that he does for
>>>>> others, but I think it is a very different thing for an employer who
>>>>> doesn't know me or much of anything about blind people to be told 
>>>>> that
>>>>> I will need screen reading software, a notetaker, and perhaps a
>>>>> scanner and some additional software. For the agency to drop the ball
>>>> after carrying it 90% of the way seems foolish to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>> Jacobson via nfbcs
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 4:21 PM
>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>> Cc: Steve Jacobson; 'Tracy Carcione'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>>> Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you raise some interesting points.  When I started working
>>>>> some forty years ago, it was common thought that the agency for the
>>>>> blind provided the equipment for a job.  Often this was a one-time
>>>>> thing, and of course that has changed.  However, particularly with 
>>>>> the
>>>>> coming of ADA, but even before that, it became the employer's
>>>>> responsibility to provide needed equipment as a reasonable
>>>>> accommodation.  Whether it should be considered or not, that makes us
>>>>> more expensive to hire for the same return, unless, as you say, we 
>>>>> can
>>>>> convince an employer that we will produce more.  However, I am
>>>>> somewhat uneasy with the concept that we produce more to justify our
>>>>> extra equipment because it may not be that easy to achieve.  A lot of
>>>>> our reasonable accommodation needs are really pretty small for a 
>>>>> large
>>>>> company, but they can be an "Undo burden" on a small company which is
>>>>> where many jobs are.  Also, many large companies budget at a
>>>>> department level and one's equipment may need to be paid for by the
>>>>> department that does the hiring.  A small expense for a large company
>>>>> might be much more substantial at the department level. come
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't claim to have answers, but I believe this problem needs to be
>>>>> considered.  Still, can one really claim discrimination if someone
>>>>> else is hired who does not have reasonable accommodation needs?  I
>>>>> know that some job applicants are told to iron out their reasonable
>>>>> accommodation needs right away, and there is a case to be made for
>>>>> that.  One needs to know if they can do the job for one thing.  
>>>>> But it
>>>>> really exposes one's hand, so to speak, very early in the process.
>>>>> Another employee who does not require any reasonable accommodations
>>>>> but who had a family situation that causes them to require time off,
>>>>> for example, won't reveal any of this until they have been hired.  We
>>>>> need to look for answers to some of this as blind people because 
>>>>> we are
>>>> the ones most effected.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G 
>>>>> Heim
>>>>> via nfbcs
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:51 AM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>; Tracy Carcione
>>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>>> Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>> It'd be funny if it wasn't about putting bread on the table.
>>>>> Another thing in the comments that I think is of interest is that 
>>>>> some
>>>>> people blasted the research study saying it was stupid to disclose
>>>>> that you are disabled in the cover letter. But both of our examples
>>>>> show how futile it is to not disclose it.  You're going to end up 
>>>>> at a
>>>>> lot of interviews where you have absolutely no chance at the job.
>>>>> There is always some chance you'll wow the interviewer into giving 
>>>>> you
>>>>> a chance, I suppose. Is it worth it? Just my opinion but I don't 
>>>>> think
>>>>> so. I think you are better off weeding those people out in the first
>>>> place.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last time I was applying for jobs, I made myself out to be Super
>>>>> Blind Guy in my cover letter. Of course, I didn't actually use that
>>>>> term in my cover letter but I made a point of emphasizing the 
>>>>> things I
>>>>> could do. I have competed in triathlonns, landscaped the front of my
>>>>> house, done a lot of woodworking. For what it's worth, it seemed to
>>>>> work.
>>>>>
>>>>> You know about Super Blind Guy, right? He and his faithful guide dog
>>>>> companion  go around righting wrongs with his razor sharp mind, super
>>>>> hearing, echo location, and super sensitive touch. "Ah ha!" says 
>>>>> Super
>>>>> Blind Guy, "I knew the bill was counterfeit because it was dated 1936
>>>>> and Andrew Jackson didn't appear on the twenty until 1938."
>>>>> On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>> I once interviewed for a job, taking a bus, a train, and walking
>>>>>> several blocks in Manhattan, only to find the interviewer could not
>>>>>> be convinced I wouldn't need someone to lead me to the bathroom.
>>>>>> Grrrr.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>>>> Heim via nfbcs
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:03 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Cc: John G Heim
>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>>>> Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/upshot/fake-cover-letters-expose- 
>>>>>
>>>>> discri
>>>>>> mination-against-disabled.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I have talked on this list about wanting to commission a
>>>>>> study similar to the one mentioned in this article except with a
>>>>>> blind applicant applying for IT jobs. The study has people with
>>>>>> spinal injuries and Asperger's Syndrome applying for accounting 
>>>>>> jobs.
>>>>>> They found disabled applicants were 26% less likely to get a call
>>>>>> back. Of particular interest are some of the comments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Given two candidates of roughly equal qualifications the rational
>>>>> decision
>>>>>> would be to hire the one without disabilities. It's going to be less
>>>>>> expensive, on average . [...] So statistically, a disabled job
>>>>>> applicant would need to be sufficiently better qualified for the job
>>>>>> to overcome the disability to be the 'correct' choice."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Long time readers of this list will know I've speculated about this
>>>>>> effect for years. My guess is that this factor is much greater for
>>>>>> blind
>>>>> applicants
>>>>>> than it is for the types of disabilities in the study. A blind 
>>>>>> person
>>>>> does,
>>>>>> in fact, have greater challenges to over come. But I suspect that
>>>>>> even
>>>>> worse
>>>>>> is the lack of understanding about just how much a blind 
>>>>>> technologist
>>>>>> can do. A perspective employer once flatly refused to interview me
>>>>>> when she
>>>>> saw
>>>>>> that I was blind. She essentially accused me of faking my resume and
>>>>> simply
>>>>>> would not believe a blind person could use a computer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> n
>>>>>> et
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> e
>>>>>> du
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> -- 
>>>> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>