[NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers

Thu Feb 27 16:50:55 UTC 2020

As someone who offers programming services I understand the hiccups.  
Perhaps if we were more organized we could figure out how to tackle the 
issue.

On 2/27/2020 11:38 AM, Timothy Breitenfeldt wrote:
> I definitely agree that there is a gap in the resources that currently
> exist. I am new into the world of software engineering, and will
> finally have a position as a junior developer hopefully within the
> month. It has been a very hard journey, that could have been made much
> easier if there was a central place I could have gone to for
> accessibility of tools, how to use them, and any other tips that would
> make programming easier. This list has been useful, but sometimes I
> just don't get responses to some of my issues I have had which could
> be for all kinds of reasons. If we can take our knowledge collectively
> into a centralized place, it would make the lives of all blind IT
> professionals so much easier.
>
> I know that this mailing list is not exclusive to programmers, but it
> is definitely an area I can speak from experience that needs some
> attention from the NFB. Developers are at the core of most of our
> grief, and more blind devs that understand the problems only helps.
> However it is a very tough path to take, and all the harder because of
> the accessibility of the development tools that are used in industry.
>
> I get not creating a resource that is providing duplicate services
> that NFB already provides, but everyone on this list I think can agree
> that there is a gap, and we with out question have the skills and
> ability to fix this issue.
>
> Timothy Breitenfeldt
>
> On 2/25/20, Kevin via NFBCS <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Prior to marching on Washington I like to ask:
>>
>> How bad are things?  The certiport testing is a serious issue so let's
>> start there.  If testing becomes accessible we can move on to
>> programming tools.
>>
>>
>> On 2/25/2020 6:42 PM, charles.vanek--- via NFBCS wrote:
>>> Agreed.  I also was unaware of a board and annual meeting behind NFBCS.
>>> I'd also say technology today is moving so rapidly that an annual meeting
>>> wouldn't be at all frequent enough to address the need.
>>>
>>> As for the need.  I see there are two major buckets:
>>> 1. Computer Science Professionals.
>>> 2. End-Users of general technologies.
>>>
>>> Within group 1 (the professionals).  There is the need to keep pace with
>>> tooling to do one's job.  Examples:  How to interface with an obscure
>>> Linux/Unix system, maintaining firewall/network systems, creating/reading
>>> complex logical diagrams, finding good IDEs, etc.
>>> Within group 2 is more general usage.  How to guides on Social Media,
>>> Email, Slack, Apple TV, Android, etc. for main stream products as well as
>>> assistive products such as a braille display.
>>>
>>> To me, those are two separate groups and within each there are likely a
>>> lot of subsets, but makes sense to split as each has there own audience,
>>> change cycle and priority.  My personal interest would be in group 1, but
>>> always happy to help group 2.
>>>
>>> I would disagree that a company would openly welcome discussion between
>>> developers and blind users.  This statement may vary from B2B, B2C & B2G
>>> organizations; I'm guessing B2B would be the least likely.  That however
>>> is where a well organized & more specifically a group of people with a
>>> strong network (on LinkedIn, FaceBook, etc) comes in.  I've for example
>>> had zero luck penetrating Lever.co, Workboard & ProductBoard.  But
>>> conversely it took a while but I've had luck through LinkedIn and other
>>> means getting deep into Slack, Microsoft & currently working on Amazon
>>> AWS.  But it takes persistence, a good network with some clout and the
>>> right mindset/communication style.  When I do get through I love the
>>> results some of which are easy; like Slack not moving the cursor when Num
>>> Lock is pressed.
>>>
>>> I'd love to see some organizing.  In nerd speak, I'd like to see agreed
>>> OKRs and have regular Scrums.  There's no problem that cannot be solved
>>> within an Agile process.
>>>
>>> I do not want to step on anyone's toes.  But do we need to setup a Zoom
>>> regular session?  Bi-weekly, Monthly?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jack Heim via NFBCS
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 5:06 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>
>>> To be clear, I did not mean to imply that the NFBCS was nothing more than
>>> an email list. I genuinely did not know that it was a group within the NFB
>>> with a President and everything. I have to say though, I've been on this
>>> list for about 25 years and I do not recall ever seeing a message on this
>>> list from the NFBCS itself. I mean I do not recall ever seeing a message
>>> from one of it's officers saying, "Hi, I'm one of the officers of the
>>> NFBCS and this is what we are working on this year."
>>>
>>> I would hope the officers of the NFBCS would be thrilled to see this
>>> spontaneous outpouring of enthusiasm. But it would be fair for them to say
>>> "When you say we should do this or that, you mean you're willing to lead
>>> that team, right?" Most of the time when people say we should do this or
>>> we should do that, they mean somebody else should do it.
>>>
>>> But I have all kinds of ideas. Googling the NFBCS gives you nothing. It
>>> needs a web site. Does the NFB have a Zoom account? If so, we should set
>>> up some webinars. I'd be willing to do one on training yourself to be a
>>> Linux systems administrator. We could do one on VMware. Using an IDE.
>>>
>>> I do not feel it is my place to tell the officers of the NFBCS how to deal
>>> with reports of accessibility problems. I would just point out that
>>> someone representing the National Federation of the Blind could probably
>>> call a company and set up a teleconference meeting between developers and
>>> blind end users. I mean, if someone from the NFB called up a company and
>>> said, "We would like to have your developers talk to some blind users of
>>> your products," the company would probably listen.
>>>
>>> On 2/25/20 4:28 PM, Kevin via NFBCS wrote:
>>>> How shall we mobilize?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/25/2020 5:06 PM, Bryan Schulz via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I offered the suggestion that it would be nice if the cs division
>>>>> could address/fix the problem of Microsoft exams through certiport
>>>>> and a cisco networking program called packet tracer not being
>>>>> accessible and there was NO interest!
>>>>> So yes, I agree the group isn't much more than an email list!
>>>>> Bryan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rasmussen, Lloyd
>>>>> via NFBCS
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 2:54 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Rasmussen, Lloyd <lras at loc.gov>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> Speaking as a former board member:
>>>>> The NFB in Computer Science is a division of the national
>>>>> organization. When it was formed, probably in 1976, its primary
>>>>> emphasis and membership was for programmers of all types. As the
>>>>> years went by, more and more non-programmers needed to use computers,
>>>>> and the focus drifted somewhat away from programming and toward user
>>>>> interface problems.
>>>>> The NFBCS has one meeting per year, as part of the NFB national
>>>>> convention.
>>>>> About a hundred people show up.
>>>>> Curtis Willoughby was president of NFBCS for many years. In more
>>>>> recent years, Curtis Chong was the president. The president now is
>>>>> Jim Barbour, who sometimes posts to this listserv.
>>>>> The NFBCS listserv is a primary communication vehicle between
>>>>> conventions.
>>>>> Programming and access to programming tools continues to be a major
>>>>> emphasis at NFBCS meetings, and the officers are always looking for
>>>>> suggestions.
>>>>> I hope this clarifies things even a little.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Staff Engineer National Library Service for
>>>>> the Blind and Print Disabled Library of Congress, Washington, DC
>>>>> 20542
>>>>> 202-707-0535     https://nls.loc.gov
>>>>> The preceding opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the
>>>>> Library of Congress, NLS.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jack Heim via
>>>>> NFBCS
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 3:35 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know what the NFBCS is other than an email list.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/25/20 12:16 PM, Peter Donahue via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Isn't this supposed to be something the NFB in Computer Science
>>>>>> is addressing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>>>>>> via NFBCS
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:08 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jack, I agree with everything you said.  I'm willing to help as best
>>>>>> I
>>>>> can.
>>>>>> I should have more time soon, as I get backwatered.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I think if the NFB got behind a group for blind IT
>>>>>>> professionals, we might be able to do some good. As I said, I tried
>>>>>>> to get something like that started independently but it fizzled out.
>>>>>>> Here is a list of the goals of that organization.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Communicate with hardware & software manufacturers about
>>>>>>> accessibility problems. If their new router software has
>>>>>>> accessibility issues, does Cisco even know it? Lets make sure they do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Help current IT professionals avoid being "backwatered". (I
>>>>>>> personally coined that phrase). Getting backwatered is my term for
>>>>>>> being stuck in a job dealing with obsolete technology because its
>>>>>>> what has always been accessible -- until its not. Your skills get
>>>>>>> narrower and narrower. You don't get to play with the new stuff
>>>>>>> because its not accessible.  These are huge problems in a very
>>>>> competitive job market.
>>>>>>> 3. Provide a place for IT professionals to exchange knowledge of
>>>>>>> how to deal with accessibility issues. All of us know tricks to get
>>>>>>> around accessibility problems. I am sure that by now, many blind IT
>>>>>>> professionals have missed out on an opportunity when there was a
>>>>>>> workaround they didn't even know about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4. Encourage young people to consider information technology and
>>>>>>> comp sci as a career. With the right education and tools, a person
>>>>>>> can earn a place in one of the most sought after and highly paid
>>>>>>> professions available to a blind person. Not to diss musician or
>>>>>>> massage therapist but IT pays better and there are more jobs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/25/20 9:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>>>> When I was complaining about 32    70 accessibility a couple weeks
>>>>>>>> ago, some people seemed to say that it was because 3270 emulation
>>>>>>>> is old and not used so much anymore.  I see that.  I know I'm a
>>>>>>>> bit of a dinosaur.
>>>>>>>> But this morning, I thought I saw an opportunity to start moving
>>>>>>>> out of the old legacy system and into another system supported by
>>>>>>>> my group.  I asked my boss about the possibilities, and he said
>>>>>>>> that that would be fine, except that system has a lot of
>>>>>>>> Citrix-hosted applications, and we know making Jaws and Citrix
>>>>>>>> play together is a real
>>>>>> pain.
>>>>>>>> Citrix is common as dirt.  I think my whole IT department uses it
>>>>>>>> a lot, but not me.  I know how to get Jaws to work with it, but it
>>>>>>>> takes quite a bit of coordination, and, if that coordination is
>>>>>>>> with outside vendors, it's even more complicated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think Jack is right.  We of NFBCS should be working on
>>>>>>>> accessibility for programmers.  I don't know what that would
>>>>>>>> entail, but I think we need to do it, or we'll have more and more
>>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>>> The things we need access to are a lot more complicated than
>>>>>>>> Granny getting her email.
>>>>>>>> Now, please, tell me I'm all wet, and there are simple solutions
>>>>>>>> to my problems.
>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>>>>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> NFBCS:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/john%40johnheim
>>>>>>>> .c
>>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>>>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> NFBCS:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.
>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>> et
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>> NFBCS:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.
>>>>>> rr
>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>> NFBCS:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/john%40johnheim.c
>>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> NFBCS:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/lras%40loc.gov
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> NFBCS:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglob
>>>>> al.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> NFBCS:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/kevinsisco61784%40
>>>>> gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> NFBCS:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/john%40johnheim.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NFBCS:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/charles.vanek%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NFBCS:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/kevinsisco61784%40gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> NFBCS mailing list
>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NFBCS:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/timothyjb310%40gmail.com
>>
>