[NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers

Thu Feb 27 16:38:14 UTC 2020

I definitely agree that there is a gap in the resources that currently
exist. I am new into the world of software engineering, and will
finally have a position as a junior developer hopefully within the
month. It has been a very hard journey, that could have been made much
easier if there was a central place I could have gone to for
accessibility of tools, how to use them, and any other tips that would
make programming easier. This list has been useful, but sometimes I
just don't get responses to some of my issues I have had which could
be for all kinds of reasons. If we can take our knowledge collectively
into a centralized place, it would make the lives of all blind IT
professionals so much easier.

I know that this mailing list is not exclusive to programmers, but it
is definitely an area I can speak from experience that needs some
attention from the NFB. Developers are at the core of most of our
grief, and more blind devs that understand the problems only helps.
However it is a very tough path to take, and all the harder because of
the accessibility of the development tools that are used in industry.

I get not creating a resource that is providing duplicate services
that NFB already provides, but everyone on this list I think can agree
that there is a gap, and we with out question have the skills and
ability to fix this issue.

Timothy Breitenfeldt

On 2/25/20, Kevin via NFBCS <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Prior to marching on Washington I like to ask:
>
> How bad are things?  The certiport testing is a serious issue so let's
> start there.  If testing becomes accessible we can move on to
> programming tools.
>
>
> On 2/25/2020 6:42 PM, charles.vanek--- via NFBCS wrote:
>> Agreed.  I also was unaware of a board and annual meeting behind NFBCS.
>> I'd also say technology today is moving so rapidly that an annual meeting
>> wouldn't be at all frequent enough to address the need.
>>
>> As for the need.  I see there are two major buckets:
>> 1. Computer Science Professionals.
>> 2. End-Users of general technologies.
>>
>> Within group 1 (the professionals).  There is the need to keep pace with
>> tooling to do one's job.  Examples:  How to interface with an obscure
>> Linux/Unix system, maintaining firewall/network systems, creating/reading
>> complex logical diagrams, finding good IDEs, etc.
>> Within group 2 is more general usage.  How to guides on Social Media,
>> Email, Slack, Apple TV, Android, etc. for main stream products as well as
>> assistive products such as a braille display.
>>
>> To me, those are two separate groups and within each there are likely a
>> lot of subsets, but makes sense to split as each has there own audience,
>> change cycle and priority.  My personal interest would be in group 1, but
>> always happy to help group 2.
>>
>> I would disagree that a company would openly welcome discussion between
>> developers and blind users.  This statement may vary from B2B, B2C & B2G
>> organizations; I'm guessing B2B would be the least likely.  That however
>> is where a well organized & more specifically a group of people with a
>> strong network (on LinkedIn, FaceBook, etc) comes in.  I've for example
>> had zero luck penetrating Lever.co, Workboard & ProductBoard.  But
>> conversely it took a while but I've had luck through LinkedIn and other
>> means getting deep into Slack, Microsoft & currently working on Amazon
>> AWS.  But it takes persistence, a good network with some clout and the
>> right mindset/communication style.  When I do get through I love the
>> results some of which are easy; like Slack not moving the cursor when Num
>> Lock is pressed.
>>
>> I'd love to see some organizing.  In nerd speak, I'd like to see agreed
>> OKRs and have regular Scrums.  There's no problem that cannot be solved
>> within an Agile process.
>>
>> I do not want to step on anyone's toes.  But do we need to setup a Zoom
>> regular session?  Bi-weekly, Monthly?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jack Heim via NFBCS
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 5:06 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>
>> To be clear, I did not mean to imply that the NFBCS was nothing more than
>> an email list. I genuinely did not know that it was a group within the NFB
>> with a President and everything. I have to say though, I've been on this
>> list for about 25 years and I do not recall ever seeing a message on this
>> list from the NFBCS itself. I mean I do not recall ever seeing a message
>> from one of it's officers saying, "Hi, I'm one of the officers of the
>> NFBCS and this is what we are working on this year."
>>
>> I would hope the officers of the NFBCS would be thrilled to see this
>> spontaneous outpouring of enthusiasm. But it would be fair for them to say
>> "When you say we should do this or that, you mean you're willing to lead
>> that team, right?" Most of the time when people say we should do this or
>> we should do that, they mean somebody else should do it.
>>
>> But I have all kinds of ideas. Googling the NFBCS gives you nothing. It
>> needs a web site. Does the NFB have a Zoom account? If so, we should set
>> up some webinars. I'd be willing to do one on training yourself to be a
>> Linux systems administrator. We could do one on VMware. Using an IDE.
>>
>> I do not feel it is my place to tell the officers of the NFBCS how to deal
>> with reports of accessibility problems. I would just point out that
>> someone representing the National Federation of the Blind could probably
>> call a company and set up a teleconference meeting between developers and
>> blind end users. I mean, if someone from the NFB called up a company and
>> said, "We would like to have your developers talk to some blind users of
>> your products," the company would probably listen.
>>
>> On 2/25/20 4:28 PM, Kevin via NFBCS wrote:
>>> How shall we mobilize?
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/25/2020 5:06 PM, Bryan Schulz via NFBCS wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I offered the suggestion that it would be nice if the cs division
>>>> could address/fix the problem of Microsoft exams through certiport
>>>> and a cisco networking program called packet tracer not being
>>>> accessible and there was NO interest!
>>>> So yes, I agree the group isn't much more than an email list!
>>>> Bryan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rasmussen, Lloyd
>>>> via NFBCS
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 2:54 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Rasmussen, Lloyd <lras at loc.gov>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>>
>>>> Speaking as a former board member:
>>>> The NFB in Computer Science is a division of the national
>>>> organization. When it was formed, probably in 1976, its primary
>>>> emphasis and membership was for programmers of all types. As the
>>>> years went by, more and more non-programmers needed to use computers,
>>>> and the focus drifted somewhat away from programming and toward user
>>>> interface problems.
>>>> The NFBCS has one meeting per year, as part of the NFB national
>>>> convention.
>>>> About a hundred people show up.
>>>> Curtis Willoughby was president of NFBCS for many years. In more
>>>> recent years, Curtis Chong was the president. The president now is
>>>> Jim Barbour, who sometimes posts to this listserv.
>>>> The NFBCS listserv is a primary communication vehicle between
>>>> conventions.
>>>> Programming and access to programming tools continues to be a major
>>>> emphasis at NFBCS meetings, and the officers are always looking for
>>>> suggestions.
>>>> I hope this clarifies things even a little.
>>>>
>>>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Staff Engineer National Library Service for
>>>> the Blind and Print Disabled Library of Congress, Washington, DC
>>>> 20542
>>>> 202-707-0535     https://nls.loc.gov
>>>> The preceding opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the
>>>> Library of Congress, NLS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jack Heim via
>>>> NFBCS
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 3:35 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what the NFBCS is other than an email list.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/25/20 12:16 PM, Peter Donahue via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>      Isn't this supposed to be something the NFB in Computer Science
>>>>> is addressing?
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>>>>> via NFBCS
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:08 AM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> Jack, I agree with everything you said.  I'm willing to help as best
>>>>> I
>>>> can.
>>>>> I should have more time soon, as I get backwatered.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, I think if the NFB got behind a group for blind IT
>>>>>> professionals, we might be able to do some good. As I said, I tried
>>>>>> to get something like that started independently but it fizzled out.
>>>>>> Here is a list of the goals of that organization.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Communicate with hardware & software manufacturers about
>>>>>> accessibility problems. If their new router software has
>>>>>> accessibility issues, does Cisco even know it? Lets make sure they do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Help current IT professionals avoid being "backwatered". (I
>>>>>> personally coined that phrase). Getting backwatered is my term for
>>>>>> being stuck in a job dealing with obsolete technology because its
>>>>>> what has always been accessible -- until its not. Your skills get
>>>>>> narrower and narrower. You don't get to play with the new stuff
>>>>>> because its not accessible.  These are huge problems in a very
>>>> competitive job market.
>>>>>> 3. Provide a place for IT professionals to exchange knowledge of
>>>>>> how to deal with accessibility issues. All of us know tricks to get
>>>>>> around accessibility problems. I am sure that by now, many blind IT
>>>>>> professionals have missed out on an opportunity when there was a
>>>>>> workaround they didn't even know about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4. Encourage young people to consider information technology and
>>>>>> comp sci as a career. With the right education and tools, a person
>>>>>> can earn a place in one of the most sought after and highly paid
>>>>>> professions available to a blind person. Not to diss musician or
>>>>>> massage therapist but IT pays better and there are more jobs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/25/20 9:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>>> When I was complaining about 32    70 accessibility a couple weeks
>>>>>>> ago, some people seemed to say that it was because 3270 emulation
>>>>>>> is old and not used so much anymore.  I see that.  I know I'm a
>>>>>>> bit of a dinosaur.
>>>>>>> But this morning, I thought I saw an opportunity to start moving
>>>>>>> out of the old legacy system and into another system supported by
>>>>>>> my group.  I asked my boss about the possibilities, and he said
>>>>>>> that that would be fine, except that system has a lot of
>>>>>>> Citrix-hosted applications, and we know making Jaws and Citrix
>>>>>>> play together is a real
>>>>> pain.
>>>>>>> Citrix is common as dirt.  I think my whole IT department uses it
>>>>>>> a lot, but not me.  I know how to get Jaws to work with it, but it
>>>>>>> takes quite a bit of coordination, and, if that coordination is
>>>>>>> with outside vendors, it's even more complicated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think Jack is right.  We of NFBCS should be working on
>>>>>>> accessibility for programmers.  I don't know what that would
>>>>>>> entail, but I think we need to do it, or we'll have more and more
>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>> The things we need access to are a lot more complicated than
>>>>>>> Granny getting her email.
>>>>>>> Now, please, tell me I'm all wet, and there are simple solutions
>>>>>>> to my problems.
>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> n
>>>>>> et
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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-- 

Timothy Breitenfeldt

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