[NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable Accommodations

Sat Sep 3 20:16:56 UTC 2022

I have never had vision, and I would rather stay in my quiet neighborhood with my husband than travel to strange places because of social pressure. It is still evident to me that the tools I have been given to work and learn with are terrible. I can't in good conscience push blind kids to study CS, and I wish this weren't the case. This is why I have gone to graduate school.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 3, 2022, at 2:01 PM, William Grussenmeyer via NFBCS <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I have a much different perspective on all of this.
> I was sighted with perfect 20/20 vision when I started programming and
> using a computer in general when I was 12 years old in 1992.  I played
> video games competitively, and ranked in the top 10 of many games.  I
> also was the best programmer in my A.P. Computer Science course in
> senior year in high school, and I scored perfect on the A.P. computer
> science test.  I started programming classes in my first year in
> college.  But at the end of my first year my trouble with vision
> began.
> It is a long story after that point but suffice to say that I am fully
> blind now and I had to relearn how to use a computer and learn
> assistive technology, and how to program a computer without any
> vision.
> And I can tell you even with the best accessibility solutions, that
> assistive technology is slow, laggy, unreliable, and fucking crap
> compared to when I could see and use vision.
> When I could see and use vision I was a 100 times faster at learning,
> programming and working.
> At this point, you are rolling your eyes and saying I did not try hard
> enough and just could not adapt.
> But there is  one little problem with that theory.
> After I became completely blind, I relearned the computer and went on
> to do a phd in computer science, with top journal and conference
> publications around the world in Italy, Australia, and Canada among
> other places.
> Also, I received an NSF Fellow Ship that paid tuition, living expenses
> and travel expenses for my phd.
> On top of that, I received a Google scholarship, a California NFB
> scholarship and many others.
> But I also succeeded in top private tech companies.
> I did an internship at Google and passed their online interview loop.
> I then worked full time at Microsoft after my phd.  I went through
> their 5 hour technical interview loop.
> After I was bored at Microsoft, I went through the Amazon 5 hour
> interview loop and recieved a strong yes from all interviewers even
> the bar raiser.
> I worked at Microsoft 2 years and worked for Amazon 3 years.
> I finally just quit out of disgust.  Despite only working full time
> for 5 years I have plenty of  stock and savings to  live off for the
> forseeable future.
> The fact that the fucking accommodations portal was not accessible at
> Amazon may have been the straw that broke the back.  Or maybe it was
> the diversity and inclusion training which was not accessible and they
> just marked it completed for me even though I did not take it.
> Or maybe it was promoting the 20 year old college kid who has been
> only 1 year out of college above me.
> I do not know, but I do know that I cannot compete at the level I want
> to with all this worthless assistive technology crap that you guys
> think is all so great.
> Screen readers are slow, unreliable, and too complicated.  They take
> too long to learn and they are too cognitively heavy.    Braille
> output is a pain also.  The government guidelines for accessibility
> are the stupidest things I  have ever read in my life.
> You guys are clueless on how fast, easy, and stress less technology
> can be with vision.
>  I quit my job and now I am thinking of starting my own non-profit
> accessibility and research company.  With a phd, I can apply for
> federal grants for research and non-profit funding.
> The point is not accessibility though.
> The goal I would want to aim for is making super high performance (for
> the user) software and interfaces to speed up productivity, lessen
> stress and lessen cognitive load, and let disabled people compete even
> better in the workplace.
> Most people in the world find using computers difficult and stressful,
> whether they have a disability or not.
> I have my eye on building some easy to use, high HCI performance
> interfaces for cloud computing and data analytics for  disabled people
> to use.
> There are many people out there who are not software engineers and
> cannot roll their own command line, scripting solutions for the shitty
> cloud computing and data analytics interfaces that non-disabled people
> use.
> Even as a SWE, I find the Cloud command line interfaces a slow pain in
> the ass to use.  And the ones for data analytics are even worse.
> I do not know when I will try to start my non-profit.  Right now, I am
> just winding down from an 8 year phd and 5 year sprint in the top tech
> companies.  I am trying to relax and not give myself a stroke.
> 
> 
>> On 9/3/22, tyler Littlefield via NFBCS <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I fully support the idea you're raising here. In mental health circles,
>> this is called spoon theory. You start with x number of spoons and each
>> issue you deal with through the day takes one away. as a blind person,
>> your spoons seem to vanish at a rather alarming rate on normal days.
>> 
>> 
>> I'd be for making a resource that helps. The last time I suggested
>> writing articles and offered to throw money in in an NFB call I was
>> chastised for proposing solutions and the idea died. If there are plenty
>> of like-minded people who want that kind of platform, we should do
>> something; it doesn't have to be tied to NFBCS.
>> 
>> 
>> I am in full agreement that a central resource could be useful. I'm
>> thinking something like a wiki though, and not the pay-for-tutorial
>> service Peter is pushing here.
>> 
>> 
>> Not everyone has the money, and if the goal is to help people be
>> employed by providing tips and tricks to issues, charging people already
>> struggling feels like you're kicking them when they're already down.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 9/3/2022 7:31 AM, Tracy Carcione via NFBCS wrote:
>>> Hi Curtis.
>>> I agree, and I've done the same, as I'm sure we all have.
>>> One improvement now is that, last time I got training a couple years ago,
>>> I
>>> was able to ask for the training material in an accessible format, like
>>> Word,  before the training started, so I was able to study it and work
>>> along
>>> with the class, instead of catching up later.
>>> 
>>> But I firmly believe that it shouldn't take a huge effort for a blind
>>> person
>>> to figure out how to make things accessible.  They shouldn't have to
>>> reinvent the wheel.  They should at least be able to Google and find out
>>> if
>>> someone else has already figured out a solution.
>>> I've found this list to be an invaluable resource for solving some
>>> accessibility issues, and I've seen us discuss in-depth how to access
>>> software I don't know about.  I think it would be great if someone who
>>> does
>>> need to know could find the discussion, even if they're not part of the
>>> listserve.
>>> I suspect that struggling with accessibility, trying to find the answers
>>> you
>>> need, is part of why the unemployment rate is so high for blind people.
>>> People just get worn out by the struggle.
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Chong
>>> via
>>> NFBCS
>>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 4:09 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>>> Subject: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
>>> Accommodations
>>> 
>>> Greetings everyone:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I would like to second what Brian Buhrow said in his recent email.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether it be in
>>> technology or something else, it is necessary to become an expert on how
>>> to
>>> make things accessible for yourself."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> While some of you might assert that we cannot all be experts in making
>>> things accessible to ourselves, the reality is that as individual blind
>>> people working in an organization where we might be the only blind person
>>> employed, we must take responsibility for hunting down the solutions we
>>> need
>>> so that we can do our jobs in a way that encourages our employers to want
>>> to
>>> keep us. It is a rare thing indeed for technology training classes (not
>>> to
>>> mention other corporate training venues) to be nonvisually-accessible to
>>> us
>>> by default. In fact, I maintain that if we insist that these classes need
>>> to
>>> be 100% accessible nonvisually in order for us to keep our jobs, our
>>> value
>>> to the employer will be reduced to the point where we are no longer
>>> useful
>>> to have around. When email first became a reality in the large
>>> corporation
>>> for which I was working (this would have been back in the early 1990's),
>>> I
>>> took the same courses on how to use the email system that my sighted
>>> colleagues took. Then, when I needed to figure out how a mouse click
>>> could
>>> be activated from the keyboard, I spent extra time with the trainer to
>>> try
>>> to figure out if, indeed, there were keyboard equivalents to the mouse
>>> that
>>> would work for me. During my time in mainstream information technology, I
>>> was oftentimes required to travel to distant cities to attend week-long
>>> trainings where the material was presented for people who could see and
>>> where readers were nowhere to be found. Sometimes, I attended these
>>> classes
>>> with sighted colleagues who were willing and able to provide some
>>> assistance. At other times, I attended these classes by myself and
>>> figured
>>> out what I needed to know later when I got back to my office.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> All of this is to make the point that there is a limit to how much we as
>>> blind employees can expect to receive in the way of "reasonable"
>>> accommodations. When the level of accommodation provided to us reaches a
>>> certain point (a point, by the way, which differs from one organization
>>> to
>>> another), the positive support we have garnered tends to wane as the
>>> effort
>>> required to provide that support increases.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I hope I am making some kind of logical sense here. If not, I appreciate
>>> hearing from folks to help to clarify my thinking on this issue.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best wishes,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Curtis Chong
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Brian Buhrow via
>>> NFBCS
>>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 1:32 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Brian Buhrow <buhrow at nfbcal.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Feedback Request
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>           hello peter.  As a long time IT person who has worked on
>>> networks,
>>> large computer
>>> 
>>> installations, and a variety of technical projects, I am going to echo
>>> wha
>>> others have said
>>> 
>>> here about on-line resources.  It is usually the case that when one is
>>> learning a new API or
>>> 
>>> programming technique, or any new skill for that matter, what one needs
>>> to
>>> know about is the
>>> 
>>> skill itself, not about the blindness adaptations necessary to become an
>>> expert at that skill.
>>> 
>>> Because everyone's blindness skills are different, it makes the most
>>> sense
>>> for the individual
>>> 
>>> learning the new thing to figure out the way that works best for them.
>>> 
>>> So, for example, Bookshare.  Yes, the books in Bookshare may not discuss
>>> ways to peform the
>>> 
>>> skills those books teach as they might be performed by a blind person,
>>> but
>>> the fact that the
>>> 
>>> books are accessible on Bookshare makes them extremely useful to blind
>>> folks
>>> just by virtue of
>>> 
>>> the fact that they're there.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Now, having read those books, one can then ask specific questions about
>>> how
>>> a specific API or
>>> 
>>> development environment might be used in an accessible manner.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>           If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether it be
>>> in
>>> technology or something
>>> 
>>> else, it is necessary to become an expert on how to make things
>>> accessible
>>> for yourself.  As
>>> 
>>> part of that, building a network, as exists on this list, becomes one of
>>> the
>>> tools you use to
>>> 
>>> gain the knowledge you need to do the things you want.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Blindness specific training is wonderful, but it is mostly a general
>>> training in the sense that it
>>> 
>>> teaches you how to teach yourself to use tools or create techniques which
>>> make things
>>> 
>>> accessible to you.  Those tools and techniques might not work for anyone
>>> else in the world, but
>>> 
>>> if they work for you, then you're good.  For example, for me, half the
>>> battle of learning to do
>>> 
>>> something is just knowing another blind person has done that thing.  If I
>>> know they have, then
>>> 
>>> I can turn the question of "can I do something?" to "How do I do
>>> something?"
>>> Once I've have
>>> 
>>> how, then I can go about setting up the task of figuring it out.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>           Part of the reason we've not set up an NFB CS web site is that
>>> it
>>> would be out of date
>>> 
>>> before we finished building it.  If we said, for example, that something
>>> was
>>> inaccessible,
>>> 
>>> someone would prove us wrong.  Or, if we said, if you follow these
>>> instructions for making
>>> 
>>> something work, the thing would change and our instructions would be
>>> rendered inoperative.
>>> 
>>> In other words, what we offer you here, and in our training centers, are
>>> a
>>> lot of fishing
>>> 
>>> poles.  We leave it to you, the fisherman to go out and catch your fish.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Brian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
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>> 
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