[NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable Accommodations

Sat Sep 3 20:43:01 UTC 2022

William,

Thanks for posting this. It's interesting to see things from your
perspective as someone who is previously sighted. I encounter much of
the same frustrations. I have no better solutions than what you've
described.

I think the Reddit for Blind app is worth looking at for some good ideas
of a nonvisually efficient UI. https://www.redditforblind.org/

Chris

On Sat, Sep 03, 2022 at 11:59:22AM -0700, William Grussenmeyer via NFBCS wrote:
> I have a much different perspective on all of this.
> I was sighted with perfect 20/20 vision when I started programming and
> using a computer in general when I was 12 years old in 1992.  I played
> video games competitively, and ranked in the top 10 of many games.  I
> also was the best programmer in my A.P. Computer Science course in
> senior year in high school, and I scored perfect on the A.P. computer
> science test.  I started programming classes in my first year in
> college.  But at the end of my first year my trouble with vision
> began.
> It is a long story after that point but suffice to say that I am fully
> blind now and I had to relearn how to use a computer and learn
> assistive technology, and how to program a computer without any
> vision.
> And I can tell you even with the best accessibility solutions, that
> assistive technology is slow, laggy, unreliable, and fucking crap
> compared to when I could see and use vision.
> When I could see and use vision I was a 100 times faster at learning,
> programming and working.
> At this point, you are rolling your eyes and saying I did not try hard
> enough and just could not adapt.
> But there is  one little problem with that theory.
> After I became completely blind, I relearned the computer and went on
> to do a phd in computer science, with top journal and conference
> publications around the world in Italy, Australia, and Canada among
> other places.
> Also, I received an NSF Fellow Ship that paid tuition, living expenses
> and travel expenses for my phd.
> On top of that, I received a Google scholarship, a California NFB
> scholarship and many others.
> But I also succeeded in top private tech companies.
> I did an internship at Google and passed their online interview loop.
> I then worked full time at Microsoft after my phd.  I went through
> their 5 hour technical interview loop.
> After I was bored at Microsoft, I went through the Amazon 5 hour
> interview loop and recieved a strong yes from all interviewers even
> the bar raiser.
> I worked at Microsoft 2 years and worked for Amazon 3 years.
> I finally just quit out of disgust.  Despite only working full time
> for 5 years I have plenty of  stock and savings to  live off for the
> forseeable future.
> The fact that the fucking accommodations portal was not accessible at
> Amazon may have been the straw that broke the back.  Or maybe it was
> the diversity and inclusion training which was not accessible and they
> just marked it completed for me even though I did not take it.
> Or maybe it was promoting the 20 year old college kid who has been
> only 1 year out of college above me.
> I do not know, but I do know that I cannot compete at the level I want
> to with all this worthless assistive technology crap that you guys
> think is all so great.
> Screen readers are slow, unreliable, and too complicated.  They take
> too long to learn and they are too cognitively heavy.    Braille
> output is a pain also.  The government guidelines for accessibility
> are the stupidest things I  have ever read in my life.
> You guys are clueless on how fast, easy, and stress less technology
> can be with vision.
>   I quit my job and now I am thinking of starting my own non-profit
> accessibility and research company.  With a phd, I can apply for
> federal grants for research and non-profit funding.
> The point is not accessibility though.
> The goal I would want to aim for is making super high performance (for
> the user) software and interfaces to speed up productivity, lessen
> stress and lessen cognitive load, and let disabled people compete even
> better in the workplace.
> Most people in the world find using computers difficult and stressful,
> whether they have a disability or not.
> I have my eye on building some easy to use, high HCI performance
> interfaces for cloud computing and data analytics for  disabled people
>  to use.
> There are many people out there who are not software engineers and
> cannot roll their own command line, scripting solutions for the shitty
> cloud computing and data analytics interfaces that non-disabled people
> use.
> Even as a SWE, I find the Cloud command line interfaces a slow pain in
> the ass to use.  And the ones for data analytics are even worse.
> I do not know when I will try to start my non-profit.  Right now, I am
> just winding down from an 8 year phd and 5 year sprint in the top tech
> companies.  I am trying to relax and not give myself a stroke.
> 
> 
> On 9/3/22, tyler Littlefield via NFBCS <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > I fully support the idea you're raising here. In mental health circles,
> > this is called spoon theory. You start with x number of spoons and each
> > issue you deal with through the day takes one away. as a blind person,
> > your spoons seem to vanish at a rather alarming rate on normal days.
> >
> >
> > I'd be for making a resource that helps. The last time I suggested
> > writing articles and offered to throw money in in an NFB call I was
> > chastised for proposing solutions and the idea died. If there are plenty
> > of like-minded people who want that kind of platform, we should do
> > something; it doesn't have to be tied to NFBCS.
> >
> >
> > I am in full agreement that a central resource could be useful. I'm
> > thinking something like a wiki though, and not the pay-for-tutorial
> > service Peter is pushing here.
> >
> >
> > Not everyone has the money, and if the goal is to help people be
> > employed by providing tips and tricks to issues, charging people already
> > struggling feels like you're kicking them when they're already down.
> >
> >
> > On 9/3/2022 7:31 AM, Tracy Carcione via NFBCS wrote:
> >> Hi Curtis.
> >> I agree, and I've done the same, as I'm sure we all have.
> >> One improvement now is that, last time I got training a couple years ago,
> >> I
> >> was able to ask for the training material in an accessible format, like
> >> Word,  before the training started, so I was able to study it and work
> >> along
> >> with the class, instead of catching up later.
> >>
> >> But I firmly believe that it shouldn't take a huge effort for a blind
> >> person
> >> to figure out how to make things accessible.  They shouldn't have to
> >> reinvent the wheel.  They should at least be able to Google and find out
> >> if
> >> someone else has already figured out a solution.
> >> I've found this list to be an invaluable resource for solving some
> >> accessibility issues, and I've seen us discuss in-depth how to access
> >> software I don't know about.  I think it would be great if someone who
> >> does
> >> need to know could find the discussion, even if they're not part of the
> >> listserve.
> >> I suspect that struggling with accessibility, trying to find the answers
> >> you
> >> need, is part of why the unemployment rate is so high for blind people.
> >> People just get worn out by the struggle.
> >> Tracy
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Chong
> >> via
> >> NFBCS
> >> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 4:09 PM
> >> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >> Cc: Curtis Chong
> >> Subject: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
> >> Accommodations
> >>
> >> Greetings everyone:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I would like to second what Brian Buhrow said in his recent email.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether it be in
> >> technology or something else, it is necessary to become an expert on how
> >> to
> >> make things accessible for yourself."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> While some of you might assert that we cannot all be experts in making
> >> things accessible to ourselves, the reality is that as individual blind
> >> people working in an organization where we might be the only blind person
> >> employed, we must take responsibility for hunting down the solutions we
> >> need
> >> so that we can do our jobs in a way that encourages our employers to want
> >> to
> >> keep us. It is a rare thing indeed for technology training classes (not
> >> to
> >> mention other corporate training venues) to be nonvisually-accessible to
> >> us
> >> by default. In fact, I maintain that if we insist that these classes need
> >> to
> >> be 100% accessible nonvisually in order for us to keep our jobs, our
> >> value
> >> to the employer will be reduced to the point where we are no longer
> >> useful
> >> to have around. When email first became a reality in the large
> >> corporation
> >> for which I was working (this would have been back in the early 1990's),
> >> I
> >> took the same courses on how to use the email system that my sighted
> >> colleagues took. Then, when I needed to figure out how a mouse click
> >> could
> >> be activated from the keyboard, I spent extra time with the trainer to
> >> try
> >> to figure out if, indeed, there were keyboard equivalents to the mouse
> >> that
> >> would work for me. During my time in mainstream information technology, I
> >> was oftentimes required to travel to distant cities to attend week-long
> >> trainings where the material was presented for people who could see and
> >> where readers were nowhere to be found. Sometimes, I attended these
> >> classes
> >> with sighted colleagues who were willing and able to provide some
> >> assistance. At other times, I attended these classes by myself and
> >> figured
> >> out what I needed to know later when I got back to my office.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> All of this is to make the point that there is a limit to how much we as
> >> blind employees can expect to receive in the way of "reasonable"
> >> accommodations. When the level of accommodation provided to us reaches a
> >> certain point (a point, by the way, which differs from one organization
> >> to
> >> another), the positive support we have garnered tends to wane as the
> >> effort
> >> required to provide that support increases.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I hope I am making some kind of logical sense here. If not, I appreciate
> >> hearing from folks to help to clarify my thinking on this issue.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Curtis Chong
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Brian Buhrow via
> >> NFBCS
> >> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 1:32 PM
> >> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Brian Buhrow <buhrow at nfbcal.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Feedback Request
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>            hello peter.  As a long time IT person who has worked on
> >> networks,
> >> large computer
> >>
> >> installations, and a variety of technical projects, I am going to echo
> >> wha
> >> others have said
> >>
> >> here about on-line resources.  It is usually the case that when one is
> >> learning a new API or
> >>
> >> programming technique, or any new skill for that matter, what one needs
> >> to
> >> know about is the
> >>
> >> skill itself, not about the blindness adaptations necessary to become an
> >> expert at that skill.
> >>
> >> Because everyone's blindness skills are different, it makes the most
> >> sense
> >> for the individual
> >>
> >> learning the new thing to figure out the way that works best for them.
> >>
> >> So, for example, Bookshare.  Yes, the books in Bookshare may not discuss
> >> ways to peform the
> >>
> >> skills those books teach as they might be performed by a blind person,
> >> but
> >> the fact that the
> >>
> >> books are accessible on Bookshare makes them extremely useful to blind
> >> folks
> >> just by virtue of
> >>
> >> the fact that they're there.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Now, having read those books, one can then ask specific questions about
> >> how
> >> a specific API or
> >>
> >> development environment might be used in an accessible manner.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>            If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether it be
> >> in
> >> technology or something
> >>
> >> else, it is necessary to become an expert on how to make things
> >> accessible
> >> for yourself.  As
> >>
> >> part of that, building a network, as exists on this list, becomes one of
> >> the
> >> tools you use to
> >>
> >> gain the knowledge you need to do the things you want.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Blindness specific training is wonderful, but it is mostly a general
> >> training in the sense that it
> >>
> >> teaches you how to teach yourself to use tools or create techniques which
> >> make things
> >>
> >> accessible to you.  Those tools and techniques might not work for anyone
> >> else in the world, but
> >>
> >> if they work for you, then you're good.  For example, for me, half the
> >> battle of learning to do
> >>
> >> something is just knowing another blind person has done that thing.  If I
> >> know they have, then
> >>
> >> I can turn the question of "can I do something?" to "How do I do
> >> something?"
> >> Once I've have
> >>
> >> how, then I can go about setting up the task of figuring it out.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>            Part of the reason we've not set up an NFB CS web site is that
> >> it
> >> would be out of date
> >>
> >> before we finished building it.  If we said, for example, that something
> >> was
> >> inaccessible,
> >>
> >> someone would prove us wrong.  Or, if we said, if you follow these
> >> instructions for making
> >>
> >> something work, the thing would change and our instructions would be
> >> rendered inoperative.
> >>
> >> In other words, what we offer you here, and in our training centers, are
> >> a
> >> lot of fishing
> >>
> >> poles.  We leave it to you, the fisherman to go out and catch your fish.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -Brian
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
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