[NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable Accommodations
Peter
pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
Sun Sep 4 13:47:13 UTC 2022
Good morning Tracy and everyone,
Braille music translation? Don't rule it out.
Peter Donahue
-----Original Message-----
From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NFBCS
Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2022 7:17 AM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
Accommodations
Hi Tyler.
Yes, I'd be willing to contribute to a Wikki. I've saved notes over the
years, for whatever they're worth.
My experience is mostly with mainframes, so it's old, but there are still
some of us out there.
I also know quite a bit about software translating print music into braille,
but that may not be relevant to what we're going for.
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
Tyler via NFBCS
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 9:03 PM
To: charles.vanek--- via NFBCS
Cc: Littlefield, Tyler
Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
Accommodations
I'm happy to pull something together in terms of a wiki and get people
editing/working on it as they're able. I have some experience with
Mediawiki. If I set something up would everyone be okay contributing to
that? It seems we have this conversation a lot, and everyone is afraid to
step on toes. My secondary thought, and this might not be so popular here is
that this doesn't need to be tied to an affiliate or an organization.
Accessibility should be free and open, and I don't really see the point or
need to put it under a single specific umbrella. Thoughts?
Thanks,
On 9/3/2022 6:52 PM, charles.vanek--- via NFBCS wrote:
> I agree with CJ, Wiki's get out of date quickly, however a proper wiki
> provides adequate detail as to last updates and history such that a
> reader can take elder articles with a grain of salt. I'd be happy to
> help contribute and maintain. I have my own random notes which I have
> thought about many times tidying them up and post formally to a public
> space for others to gain benefit.
>
> How do we make this go from a thought to a reality?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Christopher
> Chaltain
via
> NFBCS
> Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 4:34 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at outlook.com>; Tracy Carcione
> <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus
> Unreasonable Accommodations
>
> I hope this doesn't come across as chastising, but although wiki's
> seem
like
> a good idea, if they aren't maintained they quickly become out of date
> and depending on the topic could easily become useless if not harmful.
> That being said, it has to start somewhere, and I'd be supportive of a
> wiki and I'd even offer to contribute and help maintain it, while
> working out how
to
> maintain such a wiki and keep it up to date.
>
> --
> Christopher (AKA CJ)
> Chaltain at Outlook
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via
NFBCS
> Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 1:42 PM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus
> Unreasonable Accommodations
>
> Hi Tyler.
> Last time we discussed this idea, I thought a Wikki would be an
> excellent way to go. It explains things, and it is easily editable, or so
I hear.
> I've never written or edited one, but they're meant to be updatable.
> I don't know any of the nitty-gritty about how to organize articles so
> people can find what they need, etc, but, if there is interest in
> starting
a
> group to discuss, I'd be willing to do my bit. Not everything, but a
> part of everything.
> Tracy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tyler
Littlefield
> via NFBCS
> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 11:20 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: tyler Littlefield; Tracy Carcione
> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus
> Unreasonable Accommodations
>
> I fully support the idea you're raising here. In mental health
> circles,
this
> is called spoon theory. You start with x number of spoons and each
> issue
you
> deal with through the day takes one away. as a blind person, your
> spoons seem to vanish at a rather alarming rate on normal days.
>
>
> I'd be for making a resource that helps. The last time I suggested
> writing articles and offered to throw money in in an NFB call I was
> chastised for proposing solutions and the idea died. If there are
> plenty of like-minded people who want that kind of platform, we should
> do something; it doesn't have to be tied to NFBCS.
>
>
> I am in full agreement that a central resource could be useful. I'm
thinking
> something like a wiki though, and not the pay-for-tutorial service
> Peter
is
> pushing here.
>
>
> Not everyone has the money, and if the goal is to help people be
> employed
by
> providing tips and tricks to issues, charging people already
> struggling feels like you're kicking them when they're already down.
>
>
> On 9/3/2022 7:31 AM, Tracy Carcione via NFBCS wrote:
>> Hi Curtis.
>> I agree, and I've done the same, as I'm sure we all have.
>> One improvement now is that, last time I got training a couple years
>> ago,
> I
>> was able to ask for the training material in an accessible format,
>> like Word, before the training started, so I was able to study it
>> and work
> along
>> with the class, instead of catching up later.
>>
>> But I firmly believe that it shouldn't take a huge effort for a blind
> person
>> to figure out how to make things accessible. They shouldn't have to
>> reinvent the wheel. They should at least be able to Google and find
>> out
> if
>> someone else has already figured out a solution.
>> I've found this list to be an invaluable resource for solving some
>> accessibility issues, and I've seen us discuss in-depth how to access
>> software I don't know about. I think it would be great if someone
>> who
> does
>> need to know could find the discussion, even if they're not part of
>> the listserve.
>> I suspect that struggling with accessibility, trying to find the
>> answers
> you
>> need, is part of why the unemployment rate is so high for blind people.
>> People just get worn out by the struggle.
>> Tracy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Curtis
>> Chong
> via
>> NFBCS
>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 4:09 PM
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>> Subject: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
>> Accommodations
>>
>> Greetings everyone:
>>
>>
>>
>> I would like to second what Brian Buhrow said in his recent email.
>>
>>
>>
>> "If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether it be in
>> technology or something else, it is necessary to become an expert on
>> how
> to
>> make things accessible for yourself."
>>
>>
>>
>> While some of you might assert that we cannot all be experts in
>> making things accessible to ourselves, the reality is that as
>> individual blind people working in an organization where we might be
>> the only blind person employed, we must take responsibility for
>> hunting down the solutions we
> need
>> so that we can do our jobs in a way that encourages our employers to
>> want
> to
>> keep us. It is a rare thing indeed for technology training classes
>> (not to mention other corporate training venues) to be
>> nonvisually-accessible to
> us
>> by default. In fact, I maintain that if we insist that these classes
>> need
> to
>> be 100% accessible nonvisually in order for us to keep our jobs, our
>> value to the employer will be reduced to the point where we are no
>> longer useful to have around. When email first became a reality in
>> the large corporation for which I was working (this would have been
>> back in the early 1990's), I took the same courses on how to use the
>> email system that my sighted colleagues took. Then, when I needed to
>> figure out how a mouse click could be activated from the keyboard, I
>> spent extra time with the trainer to try to figure out if, indeed,
>> there were keyboard equivalents to the mouse
> that
>> would work for me. During my time in mainstream information
>> technology, I was oftentimes required to travel to distant cities to
>> attend week-long trainings where the material was presented for
>> people who could see and where readers were nowhere to be found.
>> Sometimes, I attended these
> classes
>> with sighted colleagues who were willing and able to provide some
>> assistance. At other times, I attended these classes by myself and
>> figured out what I needed to know later when I got back to my office.
>>
>>
>>
>> All of this is to make the point that there is a limit to how much we
>> as blind employees can expect to receive in the way of "reasonable"
>> accommodations. When the level of accommodation provided to us
>> reaches a certain point (a point, by the way, which differs from one
>> organization to another), the positive support we have garnered tends
>> to wane as the
> effort
>> required to provide that support increases.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope I am making some kind of logical sense here. If not, I
>> appreciate hearing from folks to help to clarify my thinking on this
> issue.
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>
>>
>> Curtis Chong
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Brian Buhrow via
>> NFBCS
>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 1:32 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Brian Buhrow <buhrow at nfbcal.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Feedback Request
>>
>>
>>
>> hello peter. As a long time IT person who has worked on
> networks,
>> large computer
>>
>> installations, and a variety of technical projects, I am going to
>> echo wha others have said
>>
>> here about on-line resources. It is usually the case that when one
>> is learning a new API or
>>
>> programming technique, or any new skill for that matter, what one
>> needs to know about is the
>>
>> skill itself, not about the blindness adaptations necessary to become
>> an expert at that skill.
>>
>> Because everyone's blindness skills are different, it makes the most
>> sense for the individual
>>
>> learning the new thing to figure out the way that works best for them.
>>
>> So, for example, Bookshare. Yes, the books in Bookshare may not
>> discuss ways to peform the
>>
>> skills those books teach as they might be performed by a blind
>> person, but the fact that the
>>
>> books are accessible on Bookshare makes them extremely useful to
>> blind
> folks
>> just by virtue of
>>
>> the fact that they're there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, having read those books, one can then ask specific questions
>> about
> how
>> a specific API or
>>
>> development environment might be used in an accessible manner.
>>
>>
>>
>> If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether
>> it be
> in
>> technology or something
>>
>> else, it is necessary to become an expert on how to make things
>> accessible for yourself. As
>>
>> part of that, building a network, as exists on this list, becomes one
>> of
> the
>> tools you use to
>>
>> gain the knowledge you need to do the things you want.
>>
>>
>>
>> Blindness specific training is wonderful, but it is mostly a general
>> training in the sense that it
>>
>> teaches you how to teach yourself to use tools or create techniques
>> which make things
>>
>> accessible to you. Those tools and techniques might not work for
>> anyone else in the world, but
>>
>> if they work for you, then you're good. For example, for me, half
>> the battle of learning to do
>>
>> something is just knowing another blind person has done that thing.
>> If I know they have, then
>>
>> I can turn the question of "can I do something?" to "How do I do
> something?"
>> Once I've have
>>
>> how, then I can go about setting up the task of figuring it out.
>>
>>
>>
>> Part of the reason we've not set up an NFB CS web site is
>> that
> it
>> would be out of date
>>
>> before we finished building it. If we said, for example, that
>> something
> was
>> inaccessible,
>>
>> someone would prove us wrong. Or, if we said, if you follow these
>> instructions for making
>>
>> something work, the thing would change and our instructions would be
>> rendered inoperative.
>>
>> In other words, what we offer you here, and in our training centers,
>> are a lot of fishing
>>
>> poles. We leave it to you, the fisherman to go out and catch your fish.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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