[NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable Accommodations

Sun Sep 4 14:16:56 UTC 2022

Tracy:

Music translation would be huge, I know plenty of people trying to study 
music and getting lost.

I have a separate project currently in the works where I review 
(basically document) guitar pedals, so things like these resources are 
great. I'll get to work!

On 9/4/2022 8:17 AM, Tracy Carcione via NFBCS wrote:
> Hi Tyler.
> Yes, I'd be willing to contribute to a Wikki.  I've saved notes over the
> years, for whatever they're worth.
> My experience is mostly with mainframes, so it's old, but there are still
> some of us out there.
> I also know quite a bit about software translating print music into braille,
> but that may not be relevant to what we're going for.
> Tracy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
> Tyler via NFBCS
> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 9:03 PM
> To: charles.vanek--- via NFBCS
> Cc: Littlefield, Tyler
> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
> Accommodations
>
> I'm happy to pull something together in terms of a wiki and get people
> editing/working on it as they're able. I have some experience with
> Mediawiki. If I set something up would everyone be okay contributing to
> that? It seems we have this conversation a lot, and everyone is afraid
> to step on toes. My secondary thought, and this might not be so popular
> here is that this doesn't need to be tied to an affiliate or an
> organization. Accessibility should be free and open, and I don't really
> see the point or need to put it under a single specific umbrella. Thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> On 9/3/2022 6:52 PM, charles.vanek--- via NFBCS wrote:
>> I agree with CJ, Wiki's get out of date quickly, however a proper wiki
>> provides adequate detail as to last updates and history such that a reader
>> can take elder articles with a grain of salt.  I'd be happy to help
>> contribute and maintain.  I have my own random notes which I have thought
>> about many times tidying them up and post formally to a public space for
>> others to gain benefit.
>>
>> How do we make this go from a thought to a reality?
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain
> via
>> NFBCS
>> Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 4:34 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at outlook.com>; Tracy Carcione
>> <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
>> Accommodations
>>
>> I hope this doesn't come across as chastising, but although wiki's seem
> like
>> a good idea, if they aren't maintained they quickly become out of date and
>> depending on the topic could easily become useless if not harmful. That
>> being said, it has to start somewhere, and I'd be supportive of a wiki and
>> I'd even offer to contribute and help maintain it, while working out how
> to
>> maintain such a wiki and keep it up to date.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher (AKA CJ)
>> Chaltain at Outlook
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via
> NFBCS
>> Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 1:42 PM
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
>> Accommodations
>>
>> Hi Tyler.
>> Last time we discussed this idea, I thought a Wikki would be an excellent
>> way to go.  It explains things, and it is easily editable, or so I hear.
>> I've never written or edited one, but they're meant to be updatable.
>> I don't know any of the nitty-gritty about how to organize articles so
>> people can find what they need, etc, but, if there is interest in starting
> a
>> group to discuss, I'd be willing to do my bit.  Not everything, but a part
>> of everything.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tyler
> Littlefield
>> via NFBCS
>> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 11:20 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Cc: tyler Littlefield; Tracy Carcione
>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
>> Accommodations
>>
>> I fully support the idea you're raising here. In mental health circles,
> this
>> is called spoon theory. You start with x number of spoons and each issue
> you
>> deal with through the day takes one away. as a blind person, your spoons
>> seem to vanish at a rather alarming rate on normal days.
>>
>>
>> I'd be for making a resource that helps. The last time I suggested writing
>> articles and offered to throw money in in an NFB call I was chastised for
>> proposing solutions and the idea died. If there are plenty of like-minded
>> people who want that kind of platform, we should do something; it doesn't
>> have to be tied to NFBCS.
>>
>>
>> I am in full agreement that a central resource could be useful. I'm
> thinking
>> something like a wiki though, and not the pay-for-tutorial service Peter
> is
>> pushing here.
>>
>>
>> Not everyone has the money, and if the goal is to help people be employed
> by
>> providing tips and tricks to issues, charging people already struggling
>> feels like you're kicking them when they're already down.
>>
>>
>> On 9/3/2022 7:31 AM, Tracy Carcione via NFBCS wrote:
>>> Hi Curtis.
>>> I agree, and I've done the same, as I'm sure we all have.
>>> One improvement now is that, last time I got training a couple years
>>> ago,
>> I
>>> was able to ask for the training material in an accessible format,
>>> like Word,  before the training started, so I was able to study it and
>>> work
>> along
>>> with the class, instead of catching up later.
>>>
>>> But I firmly believe that it shouldn't take a huge effort for a blind
>> person
>>> to figure out how to make things accessible.  They shouldn't have to
>>> reinvent the wheel.  They should at least be able to Google and find
>>> out
>> if
>>> someone else has already figured out a solution.
>>> I've found this list to be an invaluable resource for solving some
>>> accessibility issues, and I've seen us discuss in-depth how to access
>>> software I don't know about.  I think it would be great if someone who
>> does
>>> need to know could find the discussion, even if they're not part of
>>> the listserve.
>>> I suspect that struggling with accessibility, trying to find the
>>> answers
>> you
>>> need, is part of why the unemployment rate is so high for blind people.
>>> People just get worn out by the struggle.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Curtis
>>> Chong
>> via
>>> NFBCS
>>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 4:09 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>>> Subject: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
>>> Accommodations
>>>
>>> Greetings everyone:
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> I would like to second what Brian Buhrow said in his recent email.
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> "If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether it be in
>>> technology or something else, it is necessary to become an expert on
>>> how
>> to
>>> make things accessible for yourself."
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> While some of you might assert that we cannot all be experts in making
>>> things accessible to ourselves, the reality is that as individual
>>> blind people working in an organization where we might be the only
>>> blind person employed, we must take responsibility for hunting down
>>> the solutions we
>> need
>>> so that we can do our jobs in a way that encourages our employers to
>>> want
>> to
>>> keep us. It is a rare thing indeed for technology training classes
>>> (not to mention other corporate training venues) to be
>>> nonvisually-accessible to
>> us
>>> by default. In fact, I maintain that if we insist that these classes
>>> need
>> to
>>> be 100% accessible nonvisually in order for us to keep our jobs, our
>>> value to the employer will be reduced to the point where we are no
>>> longer useful to have around. When email first became a reality in the
>>> large corporation for which I was working (this would have been back
>>> in the early 1990's), I took the same courses on how to use the email
>>> system that my sighted colleagues took. Then, when I needed to figure
>>> out how a mouse click could be activated from the keyboard, I spent
>>> extra time with the trainer to try to figure out if, indeed, there
>>> were keyboard equivalents to the mouse
>> that
>>> would work for me. During my time in mainstream information
>>> technology, I was oftentimes required to travel to distant cities to
>>> attend week-long trainings where the material was presented for people
>>> who could see and where readers were nowhere to be found. Sometimes, I
>>> attended these
>> classes
>>> with sighted colleagues who were willing and able to provide some
>>> assistance. At other times, I attended these classes by myself and
>>> figured out what I needed to know later when I got back to my office.
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> All of this is to make the point that there is a limit to how much we
>>> as blind employees can expect to receive in the way of "reasonable"
>>> accommodations. When the level of accommodation provided to us reaches
>>> a certain point (a point, by the way, which differs from one
>>> organization to another), the positive support we have garnered tends
>>> to wane as the
>> effort
>>> required to provide that support increases.
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> I hope I am making some kind of logical sense here. If not, I
>>> appreciate hearing from folks to help to clarify my thinking on this
>> issue.
>>>     
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> Curtis Chong
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Brian Buhrow via
>>> NFBCS
>>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 1:32 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Brian Buhrow <buhrow at nfbcal.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Feedback Request
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>>              hello peter.  As a long time IT person who has worked on
>> networks,
>>> large computer
>>>
>>> installations, and a variety of technical projects, I am going to echo
>>> wha others have said
>>>
>>> here about on-line resources.  It is usually the case that when one is
>>> learning a new API or
>>>
>>> programming technique, or any new skill for that matter, what one
>>> needs to know about is the
>>>
>>> skill itself, not about the blindness adaptations necessary to become
>>> an expert at that skill.
>>>
>>> Because everyone's blindness skills are different, it makes the most
>>> sense for the individual
>>>
>>> learning the new thing to figure out the way that works best for them.
>>>
>>> So, for example, Bookshare.  Yes, the books in Bookshare may not
>>> discuss ways to peform the
>>>
>>> skills those books teach as they might be performed by a blind person,
>>> but the fact that the
>>>
>>> books are accessible on Bookshare makes them extremely useful to blind
>> folks
>>> just by virtue of
>>>
>>> the fact that they're there.
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> Now, having read those books, one can then ask specific questions
>>> about
>> how
>>> a specific API or
>>>
>>> development environment might be used in an accessible manner.
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>>              If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether it
>>> be
>> in
>>> technology or something
>>>
>>> else, it is necessary to become an expert on how to make things
>>> accessible for yourself.  As
>>>
>>> part of that, building a network, as exists on this list, becomes one
>>> of
>> the
>>> tools you use to
>>>
>>> gain the knowledge you need to do the things you want.
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> Blindness specific training is wonderful, but it is mostly a general
>>> training in the sense that it
>>>
>>> teaches you how to teach yourself to use tools or create techniques
>>> which make things
>>>
>>> accessible to you.  Those tools and techniques might not work for
>>> anyone else in the world, but
>>>
>>> if they work for you, then you're good.  For example, for me, half the
>>> battle of learning to do
>>>
>>> something is just knowing another blind person has done that thing.
>>> If I know they have, then
>>>
>>> I can turn the question of "can I do something?" to "How do I do
>> something?"
>>> Once I've have
>>>
>>> how, then I can go about setting up the task of figuring it out.
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>>              Part of the reason we've not set up an NFB CS web site is
>>> that
>> it
>>> would be out of date
>>>
>>> before we finished building it.  If we said, for example, that
>>> something
>> was
>>> inaccessible,
>>>
>>> someone would prove us wrong.  Or, if we said, if you follow these
>>> instructions for making
>>>
>>> something work, the thing would change and our instructions would be
>>> rendered inoperative.
>>>
>>> In other words, what we offer you here, and in our training centers,
>>> are a lot of fishing
>>>
>>> poles.  We leave it to you, the fisherman to go out and catch your fish.
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> -Brian
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>
>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>>
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbne
>>> t.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnfbcs_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7C%7C26
>>> dec8653fd147d88b2308da8ddc2d9f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%
>>> 7C0%7C637978274043417810%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL
>>> CJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdat
>>> a=tqZM1Fg%2FxlvKYn3IxaMO3eJYCpnay7bq0%2BYHUXijrvg%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NFBCS:
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fnfbcs_nfbnet.org%2Fchong.curtis%2540gmail.com&data
> =05%7C01%7C%7C26dec8653fd147d88b2308da8ddc2d9f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaa
> aaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978274043417810%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwM
> DAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=
>> VPLTVc3UFZ1O4XUw4bbAXdm7Jdh23whGXm0FUqjFmnY%3D&reserved=0
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbne
>>> t.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnfbcs_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7C%7C26
>>> dec8653fd147d88b2308da8ddc2d9f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%
>>> 7C0%7C637978274043417810%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL
>>> CJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdat
>>> a=tqZM1Fg%2FxlvKYn3IxaMO3eJYCpnay7bq0%2BYHUXijrvg%3D&reserved=0
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NFBCS:
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbne
>>> t.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fnfbcs_nfbnet.org%2Fcarcione%2540access.net
>>> &data=05%7C01%7C%7C26dec8653fd147d88b2308da8ddc2d9f%7C84df9e7fe9f6
>>> 40afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978274043417810%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZs
>>> b3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D
>>> %7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hFKnMWdZ2LVeKJvtbvAug6b4QzRkyS05OYMUQajiLl4
>>> %3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbne
>>> t.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnfbcs_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7C%7C26
>>> dec8653fd147d88b2308da8ddc2d9f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%
>>> 7C0%7C637978274043574484%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL
>>> CJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdat
>>> a=HW3zLXAe0wUOrIvS0vtc3lySaNqHsLb4pu14VgY%2BgLc%3D&reserved=0
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NFBCS:
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbne
>>> t.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fnfbcs_nfbnet.org%2Ftyler%2540tysdomain.com
>>> &data=05%7C01%7C%7C26dec8653fd147d88b2308da8ddc2d9f%7C84df9e7fe9f6
>>> 40afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978274043574484%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZs
>>> b3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D
>>> %7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FEQ5f3GZ3j7w%2FM%2FP8ejDyR7y6ZTqulejjWZAD
>>> 6vlh5Y%3D&reserved=0
>> _______________________________________________
>> NFBCS mailing list
>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnfbcs_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7C%7C26dec8653fd147
> d88b2308da8ddc2d9f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978274043
> 574484%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
> k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HW3zLXAe0wUOrIvS0vtc3lySaNqH
>> sLb4pu14VgY%2BgLc%3D&reserved=0
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NFBCS:
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fnfbcs_nfbnet.org%2Fcarcione%2540access.net&data=05
> %7C01%7C%7C26dec8653fd147d88b2308da8ddc2d9f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaa
> aa%7C1%7C0%7C637978274043574484%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi
> LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=X63
>> R3Oyf4uqSyzi4H3gCR5cvDNY82SHj4vnk09q8hOU%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NFBCS mailing list
>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnfbcs_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7C%7C26dec8653fd147
> d88b2308da8ddc2d9f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978274043
> 574484%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
> k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HW3zLXAe0wUOrIvS0vtc3lySaNqH
>> sLb4pu14VgY%2BgLc%3D&reserved=0
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NFBCS:
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnfbnet.org%
> 2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fnfbcs_nfbnet.org%2Fchaltain%2540outlook.com&data=0
> 5%7C01%7C%7C26dec8653fd147d88b2308da8ddc2d9f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaa
> aaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978274043574484%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA
> iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pw
>> AzCbKdNGZQ59FSIGrSWcLXJUcATlPAKBjs6U6kEFc%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NFBCS mailing list
>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NFBCS:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/charles.vanek%40gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NFBCS mailing list
>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NFBCS:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com
> _______________________________________________
> NFBCS mailing list
> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NFBCS:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NFBCS mailing list
> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NFBCS:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com