[nfbmi-talk] October 13, 2011 Minutes,

[joe harcz Comcast]

For the record and once and for all it was not I in this message or in 
others that has ever made a personal attack upon either Donna or Elizabeth.

And for the record Donna made this motion which was decidedly and in the 
public record not only a personal attack, but also a call to suspend my 
First Amendment Rights and nothing could be more personal than that let me 
say sister.
 blind or not

Moreover, I defy you here or in the archives on this very list to denote or 
document even one personal attack as you and Elizabeth loosely define it let 
alone in the strictest sense of that term  against Donna, Elizabeth or 
anyone else who is a member of NFB MI on this list, in its archives or in 
the public minutes.

Yet, I can again cite numerous public personal attacks against myself 
personally and against my rights to post public information of dire 
importance to all blind folks here on this list and in the archives.

Now, we're on the eve of our State Convention and I'll be going in spite of 
some great physical pain and other considerations.

We will be taking on notions of importance for all blind people.

This personal garbage needs to stop for the advancement of the greater good.

I will not desist in my efforts for the advancement and the facts of the 
matter.

This said, I will denote this. I should not have lumped you dianna into 
this. It was inadvertent and it was sloppy and it was inaccurate.

Elizabeth has for more than a year called for censorship of posts related to 
MCB, FOIA, etc. to be censored. Kimberly has done so as well at NFB 
meetings. Donna has over and over again and singled out me here once again 
for censorship with  motiondocumented herin in plain language and in the 
public record .

I apologize though in that you Diana have never called for such a thing to 
my knowledge and thus lumping you in with your sisters or Donna for public 
statements and on the record stuff was incorrect in these regards.

So I again apologies to you personally for this inaccuracy though 
unintended.

It is what it is and the actions again in the public record of Donna, 
Elizabeth and to a lesser degree Kimberly are a part of the public record 
and stand for what they are.

sincerely,

Joe


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Diana Mohnke" <d_mohnke18 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List" <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: <David.Andrews at NFBnet.org>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] October 13, 2011 Minutes,


> Hello,
>
> I found the below message from Joe to be very rude and disrespectful. I 
> find it very disappointing that it has once again come to bashing specific 
> individuals on a very public listserv. I do not believe it should happen 
> and it should be dealt with in the proper manner.
>
> As members of the National Federation of the Blind we are to be respectful 
> of others ideas and opinions even when we disagree. It is disappointing to 
> note that people within our own organization feel it is okay to negatively 
> attack individuals. I would think that we should spend our energies spent 
> on helping each other instead of attacking one another. It is hard enough 
> that we are negatively stereotyped by sighted individuals you would think 
> that those of us who are blind would rather fight the same battles instead 
> of battling against one another.
>
> Joe, you should note that Mary Wurtzel made the motion, not Donna. There 
> was a discussion about the motion at which everyone was given an 
> opportunity to give their opinions. Then Larry called for a vote in which 
> only the board voted upon the motion.
>
> And I am wondering why you included all the Mohnke sisters in your attack. 
> Just to let you know we are three different individuals with our own 
> opinions, ideas, interests and talents and are not just one person 
> speaking for all three. So if you are talking about Elizabeth then just 
> say her name but do not include the Mohnke sisters when you are only 
> talking about one.
>
> You stated, “and I'll not tolerate any further and totally hypocritical 
> attacks upon my person”. Don’t you think that Elizabeth and Donna feel the 
> same way? That they will no longer tolerate the attacks you make against 
> them?
>
> I only hope that respect towards other individuals would occur in the 
> future. When we steer towards hateful and demeaning attacks we are not 
> helping anyone.
>
> Sincerely,
> Diana
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: joe harcz Comcast <joeharcz at comcast.net>
> To: NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 12:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] October 13, 2011 Minutes,
>
> Hello,
>
> Thank you for these minutes as always.
>
> And I'd like to take [personal opportunity to thank one and all on my 
> personal behalf let alone on the behalf of others for which I've fought 
> and, continue to fight for period.
>
> However, being only human I do wish to know who voted against me, or 
> rather for those who singled me out for censorship.
>
> I don't ask this for any sort of retribution, but only because I, 
> personally have only so much resources.
>
> I simply cannot and will not work for those who attack me directly and in 
> official capacity. I hope that folks understand this. I am not so shallow 
> as I am vindictive or that I would otherwise retaliate against such 
> individuals for I'm not like that. But again I won't work or advocate or 
> expend any free energy for those who personally attacked me or again 
> subscribed for my censorship in stark violation of my given human and 
> civil and constitutional rights. Namely I won't work personally for 
> example on behalf of Donna even as I've done openly on this listand others 
> in the past though I'll continue to work for and on behalf of all the 
> blind and Donna would most assuredly benefit from that personally along 
> with others of course.
>
> Now, am I to understand from these minutes and subsequent discussions that 
> it was Donna Posant who initiated this personal attack and that it was 
> Elizabeth who aided and abetted it?
>
> Ironic as it all is and as frankly gutless as it all is we are all adults 
> here and if someone has a problem with me on or off the list he or she can 
> direct comments to me directly on this list or at my e-mail at: 
> joeharcz at comcast.net.
>
> I've pretty much refrained from open commentary on this list because we do 
> not need a "house divided".
>
> But, upon reflection and upon seeing this once again, and on the eve of 
> our state convention in which I've invested numerous hours, and shallow 
> resources to be continually slapped in the face by shallow individuals who 
> do not have the plain courage to confront me directly is, frankly beyond 
> the pale.
>
> Again, it is also hypocritical, counterproductive and hurts the body 
> politic more than it hurts me though I cannot state being human and 
> working for the benefit of all who are blind for years without one single 
> dime of pay this doesn't hurt my feelings.
>
> If Donna and Elizabeth can't figure out the difference between so-called 
> "personal attacks" upon a public official who bbilks more than one hundred 
> and twenty five thousand per year and all his perks and benefits at the 
> taxpayer's teet while screwing with the blind for his sighted masters and 
> for his own kicks like Pat Cannon and me, who doesn't get one dime but 
> rather gets peed upon by the likes of Donna and Elizabeth over and over 
> again I just don't know what is what? Can you and the Monke sisters 
> including Elizabeth figure this out donna; or the groos coardly and 
> hypocritical elements of it all that is? And if this all has to do with 
> Larry and not me personally and your personal relationship than that makes 
> matters worse in my mind for it defiles once again the goals and 
> aspirations of all blind folks over personal issues.
>
> Listen one and all there are performance standards for public officials.
>
> They are what they are in any democratic-republic. Like it or lump it! If 
> you, Donna, and you Elizabeth like a dictatorship then go to some other 
> country and don't let the freedom of this democracy hit you in the back 
> end on your way out!
>
> I am as serious as a heart attack about that statement.
>
> If either one of you don't like me personally it is ok, frankly right now 
> I don't like either of you for obvious reasons.
>
> Now, if on the other hand you wish to apologize either individually or 
> together for your direct, and personal and divisive attacks made in this 
> meeting I'm willing to be a human and forgive you for these affronts.
>
> Regardless, I am dedicated and will be diligent towards what I perceive as 
> advancements of all human beings with a special concern towards the 
> advancement of those who are blind whether or not, I like the people 
> particularly or not.
>
> I'm sorry I must amend the prior statement. I will now and continually 
> fight against the perfidy of two individuals from the public roles who are 
> blind . They are Patrick D. Cannon and Leemon Jones. And I fight against 
> them for their betrayal of the public trust in their official capacity and 
> their long standing perfidy against those who are blind including both of 
> you by the by, but certainly not exclusive of either of you.
>
> Both of you have been hit by amonst other things the perversions and the 
> arbitrary and capricious and total violations of the Rehabilitation Act 
> spear headed by Cannon and Jones.
>
> Those are facts and they are indisputable facts in the public record.
>
> More importantly these facts, again born in the public record exemplify 
> acts by these public officials in violation of laws against all whom are 
> blind.
>
> It is now time to decide in my mind just whose side you, Donna Poseant and 
> you, Elizabeth Monke are on.
>
> You have every right to state up front, and again on this very list if you 
> have the temerity to do so any opposition to what I've said here.
>
> You have every right to state your opinion. You can do whatever you wish 
> as human beings and as even officers like Donna has done. This is your 
> innate and human and civil right endowed by our beloved United States 
> Constitution which you've spit upon and denigrated here in the public 
> record. I unlike you both won't take that right from either of you.
>
> But, don't again for one moment think you can get away with sneaky, 
> cowardly and insidious attacks upon my person, or engage openly in actions 
> against my human and civil rights as you did in the public albeit behind 
> my back at the time without comment or without a counter defense.
>
> Don't for one minute think this is not a cowardly attack upon my person 
> and against the public interest.
>
> You both made this beyond what it ever should have been.
>
> You both again have gone beyond the pale and have sold out to the devil 
> so-to-speak.
>
> I am not Jesus, and do not claim to be and will not "turn the other 
> cheek".
>
> This is stated for the public record. On the record. And I'll not tolerate 
> any further, and totally hypocritical attacks upon my person and again 
> against the body politic this ever again.
>
> Both of you and your cohorts are free to leave NFB MI or stay. Elizabeth 
> you've complained and not only here on list about this that and the other 
> thing, often as I've asserted, and in my opinion rightfully so, but then 
> bitten myself and others on the ass even after that affirmation, and then 
> you continue to state you are thinking about leaving this organization. 
> Well don't let me stand in your way and don't let the door hit you on the 
> backside on the way out either please.
>
> And don't give me either of you this paranoid "talking behind my back" 
> garbage. I do my bidding right here and in public and up close and 
> personal unlike, once again the cowardly types like yourselves or the 
> likes of worse, once again public officials like Pat Cannon and Leemon 
> Jones who are highly paid Uncle Toms and yes, that is a personal attack 
> verified by facts for they've sold us out for their "thirty pieces of 
> silver" over and over again.
>
> My girlfriend just so happens to be Jewish and there were those in her 
> extended family who were in concentration camps and there were those 
> unfortunates in those dire times who sold out their own, perhaps out of 
> utter desperation. They were called "Kapos" by the Nazis and "Hudenrats' 
> by their brethren.
>
> Regardless and in simple terms here folks are either a part of the problem 
> or they are part of the solution.
>
> Which do either and/or you wish to be?
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Joe
>
> f
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <trising at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFBofMichigan List" <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 8:42 PM
> Subject: [nfbmi-talk] October 13, 2011 Minutes,
>
>
>> National Federation of the Blind of Michigan Board Meeting
>> October 13, 2011 Minutes,
>> Quorum Marcus Simmons, Larry Posont, Terri Wilcox, Dave Robinson, Mike 
>> Powell, Donna Posont, and Mary Wurtzel.
>> Secretary's Report, Terri Wilcox. Donna Posont moved to adopt the 
>> Secretary's Report. Marcus Simmons seconded the motion. The Secretary's 
>> Report was approved.
>> Treasurer's Report, Mary Wurtzel. There is a new youth account that 
>> facilitates the keeping of separate books for both the Youth and 
>> Affiliate accounts. The affiliate has around $1,500 minus a receipt for 
>> printing and mailing the flyer for State Convention plus the two phone 
>> bills.
>> Introduction of participating Members.
>> President's Report, Larry Posont. Larry Posont, and possibly others are 
>> meeting with a veteran who is blind who is coming to
>> Convention. He has very young children. He has a custody battle because 
>> of his blindness.
>> State Convention, Update. Mary Wurtzel is going to Kalamazoo next week to 
>> finalize rooms for Convention meetings. J.J. Meddaugh and Mike Powell are 
>> investigating incomplete registrations. Larry Posont and Brunhilde 
>> Merck-Adam have discussed the Parents Seminar. A rough draft of the final 
>> Agenda should be completed by the end of next week.
>> Larry Posont represented the Commission Board at the American Council of 
>> the Blind Convention. Operators
>> Meeting on Friday from 9:30 to 3:00 P.M. Lunch will be served on Friday 
>> for $12.00 Lunch tickets must be sold at Registration for
>> around $12.00 or $14.00 for Saturday's lunch at the hotel. The Merchants 
>> Division has volunteered to operate the hospitality room. There may be a 
>> shuttle to another restaurant. The hotel is being difficult. There will 
>> be some fun Friday night from approximately 9:00 to 11:00. Chapters can 
>> sell fund raisers. The Ann Arbor Chapter will sell tickets for the gift 
>> card Raffle at 1 ticket for $3.00 and 2 tickets for $5.00. Kalamazoo may 
>> host Family Feud. Cider and doughnuts may be offered. Larry Posont will 
>> finalize youth activities with Melinda Latham on the Agenda. Leader Dog 
>> is attending the convention and speaking on the cane travel
>> program, summer camps for kids, and the Global Positioning System 
>> Program. A National Student Representative will be at
>> State Convention. Elizabeth Mohnke recommends that we have her speak on 
>> the Saturday Agenda.
>> Send Out Flyers Update. 1,000 Flyers went out thanks to Fred and Mary 
>> Wurtzel plus Sheila Latham.
>> Newsline Update. Larry Posont had a discussion with Pat Cannon and the 
>> National Office concerning Newsline. The department of Licensing
>> Has the Commission Board Minutes. Larry Posont will meet with Steve 
>> Arwood if he does not hear by next week. Pat Cannon said that payments 
>> will come year by year rather than in a five year lump sum.
>> Monitoring Report. The Commission says that corrections were sent to Rsa 
>> but they have not heard if the corrections were acceptable.
>> New Business: Dave Robinson is looking at prices and possibilities about 
>> fund raising at National Convention. Smart is cutting twenty two percent 
>> of their routes. Smart is South Eastern Michigan Rapid Transit.
>> There have been complaints concerning posts on the list serve. There is 
>> concern that these posts give our list a bad name and a bad reputation.
>> A call was issued for volunteer moderators. No one who raised complaints 
>> was willing to moderate the list. Mike Powell and Marcus Simmons are on 
>> the list serve committee. Mary Wurtzel makes a motion to block Joe Harcz 
>> from the email list serve. Donna Posont seconded the motion. Several 
>> weighed in on this discussion. Thoughts spoken included, we should not 
>> block people because we do not like what they are saying. Both sides have 
>> freedom of speech. Marcus Simmons says good research is presented by Mr. 
>> Harcz and that we should take the bitter with the sweet. Elizabeth Mohnke 
>> says personal attacks should stop. The motion does not pass.
>> Members at Large Chapter Luncheon at State Convention. The Members at 
>> Large Chapter will meet over lunch to hold elections and go over bylaws.
>> Old Business: The Training Center may not be available for moving back in 
>> until the end of January.
>> Adjourn at 9:49.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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