[nfbmi-talk] they knew they were violating several laws all along

Terry D. Eagle terrydeagle at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 18 16:32:17 UTC 2013


Joe, Did you FOIA the handbook referenced below?  How much money was
extorted from you for this public document?

Does that handbook really cover conflict-of-interest by state officers?  And
to what was the reference below about sleeping addressing?

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbmi-talk [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of joe
harcz Comcast
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:33 PM
To: nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
Cc: BRIAN SABOURIN; Elmer Cerano MPAS; MARK MCWILLIAMS
Subject: [nfbmi-talk] they knew they were violating several laws all along

Pemble Rodgers OMA FOIA and Already Violating ADA

 

 

The following is a verbatim segment from the very first meeting of the
Commission for Blind Persons. It is introducing members to various things
from the Handbook referenced here. Note all the comments about the FOIA and
OMA and also note that the  blind commissioners themselves didn't get this
information in their most effective format which is supposed to be done
affirmatively under the ADA and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act which
by the way were never even mentioned. In fact BSBP would not exist without
the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 as amened. Pretty strange but very revealing
stuff here. And Mr. Rodgers has as he suggests here opened himself to
lawsuits for his continued violations of all of the above cited laws and for
doing so knowingly as a state actor.

 

Oh and do I have to mention I requested this very information from the
transcripts/meeting minutes months ago and only got it through the web site
a few days ago? Not very timely eh" And a violation of again bot the Rehab
Act, ADA, OMA (goes to minutes) and the FOIA.

 

Joe Harcz

 

From: Jan 26 2013 BSBP Commission Meeting

 

 

22                        MS. MOGK:   Okay.  Mike, if you'd like to say a

 

23        few words about the handbook?

 

24                        MR. PEMBLE:   Yes.  I won't go into too great of

 

25        detail.   What I am basically referencing is the table of



 

 

 

 

 

1        contents, and what you have before you I would call it a good

 

2        start.   These handbooks are to be used with all boards and

 

3        commission that the Department of Licensing and Regulatory

 

4        Affairs works with and through.    Therefore, it's not exactly

 

5        specific to your role here, yet it generally addresses your

 

6        role here as an appointee of the Governor and as a public

 

7        officer of the state of Michigan.    Congratulations.

 

8                        First of all, chapter one is a general welcome,

 

9        and overview of the department, and what the role of

 

10        departments and boards are as a working team and working

 

11        together.   And your role, of course, is of an advisory nature

 

12        at this point.   The handbook has policies from our department

 

13        and also laws regarding ethical standards and conduct and

 

14        conflicts of interests for boards, commissions, agencies, and

 

15        bureaus.   Some very good reading in there.    When you are

 

16        having trouble sleeping or wondering what you're going to do

 

17        with your time for a couple of hours, peruse through it.

 

18                        What's going to happen is you're going to have

 

19        a general flavor for what's in there.    And you're going to

 

20        keep your handbook together.    You're going to probably add

 

21        materials.   As you get materials from us, you're going to add

 

22        materials to that.   And it's probably going to be a working

 

23        document for you so that when you get a specific issue that

 

24        somebody has accused you of violating the Open Meetings Act,

 

25        you're going to say, you know what, I know there's a copy of



 

 

 

 

 

1        the Open Meetings Act in my handbook, I'm going to go back

 

2        through there and read it.    When you have a specific issue on

 

3        your plate, that's the time you're probably going to read it

 

4        in more detail and understand what's there.    The second --

 

5                        MR. RODGERS:   Let me jump in for a second,

 

6        Mike.   Twice now Mike has gotten the hair on the back of my

 

7        head to stand up by indicating that the Commission is bound by

 

8        the Open Meetings Act.   It's my legal opinion, and I have an

 

9        informal opinion from the attorney generals office, that in

 

10        fact while we adhere to the spirit of the Open Meetings Act,

 

11        because this is an advisory Commission and does not have final

 

12        order, power to direct anything to happen, that based on those

 

13        rules which is different from the Commission for the Blind,

 

14        the Open Meetings Act per se does not apply.

 

15                        And I mention that because one of the issues

 

16        that usually rises up at these type of meetings is that

 

17        individuals want to use a lot of time and public comment

 

18        beyond whatever perimeters that the Chair has set for public

 

19        comment, and she'll explain that when we get to that.     And

 

20        that's to keep the meetings running in an orderly basis.

 

21        Unfortunately, some of our history was that commission

 

22        meetings ran on for a very long time with long dialogues

 

23        between commissioners and the public, which certainly dragged

 

24        the meetings out to a certain extent.

 

25                        While we will adhere to the spirit of the Open



 

 

 

 

 

1        Meetings Act, we are not legally per se bound by it.     But I do

 

2        encourage you to look at it.    Because it clearly gives us some

 

3        guide posts on the things we ought to be doing such as giving

 

4        people notice of the hearings, allowing the people to

 

5        participate in the hearings through public comment, et cetera.

 

6        Thank you.

 

7                        MR. PEMBLE:   Thank you for clarification.

 

8        Chapter two discusses more of the composition of the boards,

 

9        committees or commissions.    It has information regarding Open

 

10        Meetings Act and Freedom of Information Act, talks about

 

11        liability, civil immunity as public employees and public

 

12        officers, talks about board meetings and how board meeting are

 

13        supposed to be run based on parliamentary procedure, which

 

14        I've heard our Chair following this morning which is good.

 

15        Chapter three is more about government processes, such as the

 

16        administrative rules process, how a bill becomes a law.

 

17                        Chapter four is the Administrative Procedures

 

18        Act of 1969, very interesting reading.    We also go into

 

19        contacts by media and other interested parties.

 

20                        MR. RODGERS:   That was a shot at me folks

 

21        because I made a living for 30 years off the APA.     And I will

 

22        add the footnote, there's a point where the APA does effect

 

23        the bureau in that when we have a permit holder who has a

 

24        disagreement or a grievance against the program, there is a

 

25        process informally in which we try to resolve it.     If it's not



 

 

 

 

 

1        resolved, they are entitled to a hearing before an

 

2        administrative law judge at the Michigan Administrative

 

3        Hearing System, and then that's governed by the APA.     So,

 

4        again, if you can't sleep some night, you might want to look

 

5        at that.

 

6                        MR. PEMBLE:   A couple more chapters.   Chapter

 

7        five is about good moral character, and how to handle former

 

8        offenders for occupational licensing, and other handy

 

9        references.   Chapter six is going to be devoted to bureau

 

10        specific material.   And right now there is not a lot in there

 

11        specific to your bureau, but we're going to be adding to that

 

12        as time goes by.   And I heard a number of really good

 

13        questions about statistical components of what we do, and

 

14        that's a really good place to start, and that's information

 

15        that we as a bureau want to pull together for you.

 

16                        And I'm taking notes as I'm listening to your

 

17        questions and comments about the different types of

 

18        information you would like to see for the future.     And that

 

19        will be folded into chapter six probably as we continue to

 

20        give you materials to place in your handbooks.     And finally,

 

21        chapter seven talks about the Health Insurance Affordability

 

22        and Accountability Act regarding information privacy and

 

23        security, and what we have to do with protected health

 

24        information as a public body.

 

25                        That is an overview of your handbook and why



 

 

 

 

 

1        it's in front of you, and I hope you find it helpful.     I think

 

2        that if we use it as a working, living document that it will

 

3        become more and more useful to you as time goes by.

 

4                        MS. BARNES-PARKER:   If you can give us just the

 

5        clarification now as commissioners on two things:     If perhaps

 

6        we were to receive a FOIA, as a commissioner you would want

 

7        that turned over to you directly, would you not?

 

8                        MR. PEMBLE:   Yes, I would.

 

9                        MS. BARNES-PARKER:   And if we are contacted by

 

10        the press, as a commissioner you would want us to defer to Mr.

 

11        Rodgers or to Dr. Mogk, would you not?

 

12                        MR. PEMBLE:   Yes, I would.

 

13                        MR. RODGERS:   Those were great questions.

 

14                        MR. PEMBLE:   We may use your expertise in

 

15        responding, get your input.    And certainly if you possess

 

16        documents that you obtain through this process, they would be

 

17        subject Freedom of Information, unless I am corrected on that

 

18        point.   My understanding is that all the work of this

 

19        commission is going to be subject to Freedom of Information

 

20        and, therefore, available to the public.    And the public is

 

21        very interested in knowing exactly what we're doing and how

 

22        we're doing it, including things like notes, e-mails, things

 

23        you might not normally think of, and not just documents.     FOIA

 

24        does not require us to create documents to respond to public

 

25        inquiries, but documents in our possession, including your



 

 

 

 

 

1        possession as commissioners any note taking you've done,

 

2        things of that nature, e-mails you've sent, certainly are

 

3        subject to disclosure if that request is brought to us.

 

4                        So we may be contacting you saying we need all

 

5        of your notes from the meeting on January 17th because we've

 

6        gotten a Freedom of Information Act request on that.

 

7                        MR. RODGERS:   As a follow up to that, the very

 

8        handbook we gave you today could be subject of a FOIA request.

 

9        The e-mails between myself and Dr. Mogk, just introductory

 

10        stuff where she had a question and I'd answer it on how we do

 

11        stuff procedurally, that's all subject to FOIA.     Notes, as

 

12        Mike said, are subject to FOIA if they're between you and

 

13        fellow commissioners and/or the agency.    Almost every piece of

 

14        paper, in fact, every piece of paper we give you is probably

 

15        subject to FOIA.   Now there are some exceptions in FOIA.    And

 

16        you might want to make a note mentally or a note in your notes

 

17        that Section 13 of FOIA does cover exceptions.

 

18                        For example, decisions which are preliminary to

 

19        a final decision are not subject to FOIA.    I'm having ongoing

 

20        discussions about several different issues which are

 

21        preliminary to agency action.    So anything that is involved in

 

22        that process at this point would not be subject to FOIA,

 

23        simply because the theory being that would stifle discussion

 

24        on how we get from point A to point B.

 

25                        The other thing I would warn you about, because



 

 

 

 

 

1        while the Open Meetings Act does not apply, there may be other

 

2        acts that apply, Federal regs or State regs.    If a quorum of

 

3        the committee meets, those proceedings may be subject to FOIA

 

4        or may be subject to a lawsuit if we haven't given them

 

5        notice.   Even though we're not bound by the Open Meetings Act,

 

6        because you are created by the Governor's executive order, we

 

7        certainly have a notice, a fundamental notice requirement that

 

8        any Circuit judge or Federal judge would say you should have

 

9        sent out a notice.   So I guess what I'm saying is be careful

 

10        that four or more of you don't meet together without letting

 

11        us know about it so if we have to notice it up we will.

 

12                        A quorum, because there's seven of you, would

 

13        be four.   Two or three is a get together for dinner and that's

 

14        fine, but if all seven of you are going to have a dinner, let

 

15        me know and we'll decide what we have to do.

 

16                        MR. PEMBLE:   One question I have to you and,

 

17        you know, anybody who has an opinion feel free to give me the

 

18        input, but is the handbook in a format that's useful to you?

 

19        I know some of you have spoken this morning about your low

 

20        vision or no vision issues.    And if this handbook is not in a

 

21        format that's useful to you, perhaps we can get you the

 

22        information in another format.    You don't have to answer that

 

23        now.  If would let us know that though, we do want you to have

 

24        the information in a format that you can use.     So I apologize

 

25        if it was insensitive of us to provide everything in a



 

 

 

 

 

1        notebook form.

 

2                        MR. RODGERS:   You will note also, folks, that

 

3        you have a disc in there which hopefully was copied correctly.

 

4        And if it isn't, you've got to let us know.    So the book

 

5        should be in there.   If anybody does want a braille copy of

 

6        this, we can braille it for you, okay.    It'll take a little

 

7        while because the brailler is a little bit old and a little

 

8        bit slow like me so it'll take time for it to be done, but we

 

9        can also give you that or if you need larger print copy, we do

 

10        have the capability to do that too.

 

11                        So just let us know either directly if you want

 

12        to send, here we go FOIA, an e-mail to me or Mike Pemble or if

 

13        you want to go through your chair and have her give us a list

 

14        of who needs additional things.    One other point on the

 

15        handbook itself, before the end of the day Sue Luzenski,

 

16        who's always on top of this stuff, will be giving you

 

17        information about travel vouchers and all that kind of good

 

18        stuff.   So if you have those kind of questions, Sue will take

 

19        care of all that before the day is done.

 

20                        MR. PEMBLE:   I think my time is up.   Thank you.

 

21                        MS. MOGK:   Thank you very much, Mike and Ed.

 

 
_______________________________________________
nfbmi-talk mailing list
nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nfbmi-talk:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org/terrydeagle%40yahoo.
com





More information about the NFBMI-Talk mailing list