[nfbmi-talk] they knew they were violating several laws allalong
joe harcz Comcast
joeharcz at comcast.net
Mon Nov 18 16:40:50 UTC 2013
These are quotes from the transcript of the very first meeting of the bsbp
commission. They reference the handbook given commissioners, the open
meetings act, the foia etc.
Oh it is interesting to note that not one word referenced the Rehabilitation
Act of 1973 as amended, the ADA or Public Act 260.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry D. Eagle" <terrydeagle at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List'" <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] they knew they were violating several laws
allalong
> Joe, Did you FOIA the handbook referenced below? How much money was
> extorted from you for this public document?
>
> Does that handbook really cover conflict-of-interest by state officers?
> And
> to what was the reference below about sleeping addressing?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbmi-talk [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of joe
> harcz Comcast
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:33 PM
> To: nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
> Cc: BRIAN SABOURIN; Elmer Cerano MPAS; MARK MCWILLIAMS
> Subject: [nfbmi-talk] they knew they were violating several laws all along
>
> Pemble Rodgers OMA FOIA and Already Violating ADA
>
>
>
>
>
> The following is a verbatim segment from the very first meeting of the
> Commission for Blind Persons. It is introducing members to various things
> from the Handbook referenced here. Note all the comments about the FOIA
> and
> OMA and also note that the blind commissioners themselves didn't get this
> information in their most effective format which is supposed to be done
> affirmatively under the ADA and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act
> which
> by the way were never even mentioned. In fact BSBP would not exist without
> the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 as amened. Pretty strange but very
> revealing
> stuff here. And Mr. Rodgers has as he suggests here opened himself to
> lawsuits for his continued violations of all of the above cited laws and
> for
> doing so knowingly as a state actor.
>
>
>
> Oh and do I have to mention I requested this very information from the
> transcripts/meeting minutes months ago and only got it through the web
> site
> a few days ago? Not very timely eh" And a violation of again bot the Rehab
> Act, ADA, OMA (goes to minutes) and the FOIA.
>
>
>
> Joe Harcz
>
>
>
> From: Jan 26 2013 BSBP Commission Meeting
>
>
>
>
>
> 22 MS. MOGK: Okay. Mike, if you'd like to say a
>
>
>
> 23 few words about the handbook?
>
>
>
> 24 MR. PEMBLE: Yes. I won't go into too great of
>
>
>
> 25 detail. What I am basically referencing is the table of
>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
> 1 contents, and what you have before you I would call it a good
>
>
>
> 2 start. These handbooks are to be used with all boards and
>
>
>
> 3 commission that the Department of Licensing and Regulatory
>
>
>
> 4 Affairs works with and through. Therefore, it's not exactly
>
>
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> 5 specific to your role here, yet it generally addresses your
>
>
>
> 6 role here as an appointee of the Governor and as a public
>
>
>
> 7 officer of the state of Michigan. Congratulations.
>
>
>
> 8 First of all, chapter one is a general welcome,
>
>
>
> 9 and overview of the department, and what the role of
>
>
>
> 10 departments and boards are as a working team and working
>
>
>
> 11 together. And your role, of course, is of an advisory nature
>
>
>
> 12 at this point. The handbook has policies from our department
>
>
>
> 13 and also laws regarding ethical standards and conduct and
>
>
>
> 14 conflicts of interests for boards, commissions, agencies, and
>
>
>
> 15 bureaus. Some very good reading in there. When you are
>
>
>
> 16 having trouble sleeping or wondering what you're going to do
>
>
>
> 17 with your time for a couple of hours, peruse through it.
>
>
>
> 18 What's going to happen is you're going to have
>
>
>
> 19 a general flavor for what's in there. And you're going to
>
>
>
> 20 keep your handbook together. You're going to probably add
>
>
>
> 21 materials. As you get materials from us, you're going to add
>
>
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> 22 materials to that. And it's probably going to be a working
>
>
>
> 23 document for you so that when you get a specific issue that
>
>
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> 24 somebody has accused you of violating the Open Meetings Act,
>
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> 25 you're going to say, you know what, I know there's a copy of
>
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> 1 the Open Meetings Act in my handbook, I'm going to go back
>
>
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> 2 through there and read it. When you have a specific issue on
>
>
>
> 3 your plate, that's the time you're probably going to read it
>
>
>
> 4 in more detail and understand what's there. The second --
>
>
>
> 5 MR. RODGERS: Let me jump in for a second,
>
>
>
> 6 Mike. Twice now Mike has gotten the hair on the back of my
>
>
>
> 7 head to stand up by indicating that the Commission is bound by
>
>
>
> 8 the Open Meetings Act. It's my legal opinion, and I have an
>
>
>
> 9 informal opinion from the attorney generals office, that in
>
>
>
> 10 fact while we adhere to the spirit of the Open Meetings Act,
>
>
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> 11 because this is an advisory Commission and does not have final
>
>
>
> 12 order, power to direct anything to happen, that based on those
>
>
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> 13 rules which is different from the Commission for the Blind,
>
>
>
> 14 the Open Meetings Act per se does not apply.
>
>
>
> 15 And I mention that because one of the issues
>
>
>
> 16 that usually rises up at these type of meetings is that
>
>
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> 17 individuals want to use a lot of time and public comment
>
>
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> 18 beyond whatever perimeters that the Chair has set for public
>
>
>
> 19 comment, and she'll explain that when we get to that. And
>
>
>
> 20 that's to keep the meetings running in an orderly basis.
>
>
>
> 21 Unfortunately, some of our history was that commission
>
>
>
> 22 meetings ran on for a very long time with long dialogues
>
>
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> 23 between commissioners and the public, which certainly dragged
>
>
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> 24 the meetings out to a certain extent.
>
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> 25 While we will adhere to the spirit of the Open
>
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> 1 Meetings Act, we are not legally per se bound by it. But I do
>
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> 2 encourage you to look at it. Because it clearly gives us some
>
>
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> 3 guide posts on the things we ought to be doing such as giving
>
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> 4 people notice of the hearings, allowing the people to
>
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> 5 participate in the hearings through public comment, et cetera.
>
>
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> 6 Thank you.
>
>
>
> 7 MR. PEMBLE: Thank you for clarification.
>
>
>
> 8 Chapter two discusses more of the composition of the boards,
>
>
>
> 9 committees or commissions. It has information regarding Open
>
>
>
> 10 Meetings Act and Freedom of Information Act, talks about
>
>
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> 11 liability, civil immunity as public employees and public
>
>
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> 12 officers, talks about board meetings and how board meeting are
>
>
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> 13 supposed to be run based on parliamentary procedure, which
>
>
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> 14 I've heard our Chair following this morning which is good.
>
>
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> 15 Chapter three is more about government processes, such as the
>
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> 16 administrative rules process, how a bill becomes a law.
>
>
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> 17 Chapter four is the Administrative Procedures
>
>
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> 18 Act of 1969, very interesting reading. We also go into
>
>
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> 19 contacts by media and other interested parties.
>
>
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> 20 MR. RODGERS: That was a shot at me folks
>
>
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> 21 because I made a living for 30 years off the APA. And I will
>
>
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> 22 add the footnote, there's a point where the APA does effect
>
>
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> 23 the bureau in that when we have a permit holder who has a
>
>
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> 24 disagreement or a grievance against the program, there is a
>
>
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> 25 process informally in which we try to resolve it. If it's
> not
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> 1 resolved, they are entitled to a hearing before an
>
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> 2 administrative law judge at the Michigan Administrative
>
>
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> 3 Hearing System, and then that's governed by the APA. So,
>
>
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> 4 again, if you can't sleep some night, you might want to look
>
>
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> 5 at that.
>
>
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> 6 MR. PEMBLE: A couple more chapters. Chapter
>
>
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> 7 five is about good moral character, and how to handle former
>
>
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> 8 offenders for occupational licensing, and other handy
>
>
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> 9 references. Chapter six is going to be devoted to bureau
>
>
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> 10 specific material. And right now there is not a lot in there
>
>
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> 11 specific to your bureau, but we're going to be adding to that
>
>
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> 12 as time goes by. And I heard a number of really good
>
>
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> 13 questions about statistical components of what we do, and
>
>
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> 14 that's a really good place to start, and that's information
>
>
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> 15 that we as a bureau want to pull together for you.
>
>
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> 16 And I'm taking notes as I'm listening to your
>
>
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> 17 questions and comments about the different types of
>
>
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> 18 information you would like to see for the future. And that
>
>
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> 19 will be folded into chapter six probably as we continue to
>
>
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> 20 give you materials to place in your handbooks. And finally,
>
>
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> 21 chapter seven talks about the Health Insurance Affordability
>
>
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> 22 and Accountability Act regarding information privacy and
>
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> 23 security, and what we have to do with protected health
>
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> 24 information as a public body.
>
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> 25 That is an overview of your handbook and why
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> 1 it's in front of you, and I hope you find it helpful. I think
>
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> 2 that if we use it as a working, living document that it will
>
>
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> 3 become more and more useful to you as time goes by.
>
>
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> 4 MS. BARNES-PARKER: If you can give us just the
>
>
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> 5 clarification now as commissioners on two things: If perhaps
>
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> 6 we were to receive a FOIA, as a commissioner you would want
>
>
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> 7 that turned over to you directly, would you not?
>
>
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> 8 MR. PEMBLE: Yes, I would.
>
>
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> 9 MS. BARNES-PARKER: And if we are contacted by
>
>
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> 10 the press, as a commissioner you would want us to defer to Mr.
>
>
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> 11 Rodgers or to Dr. Mogk, would you not?
>
>
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> 12 MR. PEMBLE: Yes, I would.
>
>
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> 13 MR. RODGERS: Those were great questions.
>
>
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> 14 MR. PEMBLE: We may use your expertise in
>
>
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> 15 responding, get your input. And certainly if you possess
>
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> 16 documents that you obtain through this process, they would be
>
>
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> 17 subject Freedom of Information, unless I am corrected on that
>
>
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> 18 point. My understanding is that all the work of this
>
>
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> 19 commission is going to be subject to Freedom of Information
>
>
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> 20 and, therefore, available to the public. And the public is
>
>
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> 21 very interested in knowing exactly what we're doing and how
>
>
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> 22 we're doing it, including things like notes, e-mails, things
>
>
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> 23 you might not normally think of, and not just documents.
> FOIA
>
>
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> 24 does not require us to create documents to respond to public
>
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> 25 inquiries, but documents in our possession, including your
>
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> 1 possession as commissioners any note taking you've done,
>
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> 2 things of that nature, e-mails you've sent, certainly are
>
>
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> 3 subject to disclosure if that request is brought to us.
>
>
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> 4 So we may be contacting you saying we need all
>
>
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> 5 of your notes from the meeting on January 17th because we've
>
>
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> 6 gotten a Freedom of Information Act request on that.
>
>
>
> 7 MR. RODGERS: As a follow up to that, the very
>
>
>
> 8 handbook we gave you today could be subject of a FOIA request.
>
>
>
> 9 The e-mails between myself and Dr. Mogk, just introductory
>
>
>
> 10 stuff where she had a question and I'd answer it on how we do
>
>
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> 11 stuff procedurally, that's all subject to FOIA. Notes, as
>
>
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> 12 Mike said, are subject to FOIA if they're between you and
>
>
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> 13 fellow commissioners and/or the agency. Almost every piece of
>
>
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> 14 paper, in fact, every piece of paper we give you is probably
>
>
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> 15 subject to FOIA. Now there are some exceptions in FOIA. And
>
>
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> 16 you might want to make a note mentally or a note in your notes
>
>
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> 17 that Section 13 of FOIA does cover exceptions.
>
>
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> 18 For example, decisions which are preliminary to
>
>
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> 19 a final decision are not subject to FOIA. I'm having ongoing
>
>
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> 20 discussions about several different issues which are
>
>
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> 21 preliminary to agency action. So anything that is involved in
>
>
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> 22 that process at this point would not be subject to FOIA,
>
>
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> 23 simply because the theory being that would stifle discussion
>
>
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> 24 on how we get from point A to point B.
>
>
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> 25 The other thing I would warn you about, because
>
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> 1 while the Open Meetings Act does not apply, there may be other
>
>
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> 2 acts that apply, Federal regs or State regs. If a quorum of
>
>
>
> 3 the committee meets, those proceedings may be subject to FOIA
>
>
>
> 4 or may be subject to a lawsuit if we haven't given them
>
>
>
> 5 notice. Even though we're not bound by the Open Meetings Act,
>
>
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> 6 because you are created by the Governor's executive order, we
>
>
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> 7 certainly have a notice, a fundamental notice requirement that
>
>
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> 8 any Circuit judge or Federal judge would say you should have
>
>
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> 9 sent out a notice. So I guess what I'm saying is be careful
>
>
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> 10 that four or more of you don't meet together without letting
>
>
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> 11 us know about it so if we have to notice it up we will.
>
>
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> 12 A quorum, because there's seven of you, would
>
>
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> 13 be four. Two or three is a get together for dinner and that's
>
>
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> 14 fine, but if all seven of you are going to have a dinner, let
>
>
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> 15 me know and we'll decide what we have to do.
>
>
>
> 16 MR. PEMBLE: One question I have to you and,
>
>
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> 17 you know, anybody who has an opinion feel free to give me the
>
>
>
> 18 input, but is the handbook in a format that's useful to you?
>
>
>
> 19 I know some of you have spoken this morning about your low
>
>
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> 20 vision or no vision issues. And if this handbook is not in a
>
>
>
> 21 format that's useful to you, perhaps we can get you the
>
>
>
> 22 information in another format. You don't have to answer that
>
>
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> 23 now. If would let us know that though, we do want you to have
>
>
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> 24 the information in a format that you can use. So I apologize
>
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> 25 if it was insensitive of us to provide everything in a
>
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> 1 notebook form.
>
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> 2 MR. RODGERS: You will note also, folks, that
>
>
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> 3 you have a disc in there which hopefully was copied correctly.
>
>
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> 4 And if it isn't, you've got to let us know. So the book
>
>
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> 5 should be in there. If anybody does want a braille copy of
>
>
>
> 6 this, we can braille it for you, okay. It'll take a little
>
>
>
> 7 while because the brailler is a little bit old and a little
>
>
>
> 8 bit slow like me so it'll take time for it to be done, but we
>
>
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> 9 can also give you that or if you need larger print copy, we do
>
>
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> 10 have the capability to do that too.
>
>
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> 11 So just let us know either directly if you want
>
>
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> 12 to send, here we go FOIA, an e-mail to me or Mike Pemble or if
>
>
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> 13 you want to go through your chair and have her give us a list
>
>
>
> 14 of who needs additional things. One other point on the
>
>
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> 15 handbook itself, before the end of the day Sue Luzenski,
>
>
>
> 16 who's always on top of this stuff, will be giving you
>
>
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> 17 information about travel vouchers and all that kind of good
>
>
>
> 18 stuff. So if you have those kind of questions, Sue will take
>
>
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> 19 care of all that before the day is done.
>
>
>
> 20 MR. PEMBLE: I think my time is up. Thank
> you.
>
>
>
> 21 MS. MOGK: Thank you very much, Mike and Ed.
>
>
>
>
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