[nfbmi-talk] Fw: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

Thu Jun 4 16:54:55 UTC 2015

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "joe harcz Comcast" <joeharcz at comcast.net>
To: "Mary Ann Robinson NFB MI" <brightsmile1953 at comcast.net>
Cc: "David Robinson NFB MI" <drob1946 at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 10:37 AM
Subject: Fw: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?


>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Terry D. Eagle" <terrydeagle at yahoo.com>
> To: "'joe harcz Comcast'" <joeharcz at comcast.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 8:52 PM
> Subject: FW: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?
>
>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>> Jacobson via blindlaw
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 11:57 AM
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List
>> Cc: Steve Jacobson
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?
>>
>> Perhaps the lawyers on this list have some answers that would help, but 
>> the
>> fact is that sometimes there really are
>> not accessible options for some specific kinds of software, or the 
>> software
>> that is accessible has some other
>> drawback that makes it not possible to use in a given situation.  In
>> addition, to my knowledge, the ADA applies to
>> an employer, but it doesn't apply to the companies creating the software.
>> The only leverage we really have is to
>> have the sales of inaccessible products reduced because of their
>> inaccessibility, but if there are no good
>> alternatives, that doesn't happen.  Of course, there are exceptions and
>> there are cases where accessibility wasn't
>> taken into account when it should have been, and at least there is a 
>> course
>> of action in such cases.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 15:24:43 +0000, Susan Kelly via blindlaw wrote:
>>
>>>At least at our agency (county public defender office), my supervisor was
>> part of the committee that eventually
>> procured the file management program.  Because I use a screen reader (and 
>> to
>> a lesser degree, screen magnification)
>> and a co-worker uses Dragon due to paralysis, she lobbied incessantly for
>> the programs to be accessible.  At first,
>> no one - either in administration OR in the varying software firms - even
>> knew what that meant.  There is a common
>> misconception that if something is on the Internet, it must be 
>> accessible.
>> Once she got everyone somewhat
>> educated, the administration then said they would still purchase what 
>> they
>> wanted (arguing cost and general
>> attractions of the program chosen), and would work with that firm's 
>> software
>> engineers later to make it accessible.
>> Over two years later, none of that has happened, and my co-worker and I 
>> rely
>> on our assistants to help us manage
>> that program.
>>
>>>As far as the courts, things are slowly changing - but only very slowly,
>> after years of complaining and threats of
>> litigation.  Finally, one other aspect - our county government also 
>> relies
>> now on an automated. Web-based personnel
>> management program, for everything from time / attendance and payroll to
>> general human resources and employee
>> benefits.  It is also almost entirely inaccessible, beyond the initial
>> sign-on screen.  After my continuing
>> complaints about the extreme HIPPA and other privacy violations involved 
>> in
>> requiring me to rely on others to
>> access this program, our ADA liaison and reps from our Human Resources
>> department met with the company, which is
>> apparently the largest payroll management firm in the country.  Their
>> response was essentially that they are aware
>> of the accessibility problems and...they don't care.  They have 
>> absolutely
>> no intention of making compliance a
>> priority.
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mike
>> mcglashon via blindlaw
>>>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 7:53 AM
>>>To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>Cc: mike mcglashon
>>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?
>>
>>>hi guys:
>>
>>>I have been following this window eyes or jaws thread a bit and one
>> question comes to mind?
>>
>>>that is, if the courts and government agencies are all supposed to of the
>> ADA and its provisions in the public
>> sector portion under title II, then how come these issues are coming 
>> forth
>> from folks in the field saying that
>> their software that the agency tey work for is inaccessible?  this is
>> confusing to me and says that the agencies
>> are not taking the ADA title II seriously, or that it simply doesn't 
>> apply
>> to them?  I could see this happening in
>> the private sector simply due to ignorance of the law; this would be
>> correctable; but to hear of public government
>> agencies making these faux pas's is quite disturbing to me as an outsider
>> looking in?
>>
>>>Please explain, I need to be educated?
>>
>>>Sincerely:
>>
>>>Mike M.
>>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Susan Kelly via blindlaw
>>>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 9:46 AM
>>>To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>Cc: Susan Kelly
>>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?
>>
>>>Alex mentions another screen-reader side issue that has frustrated me, 
>>>and
>> I think a lot of other folks on this
>> list.  If you are in an office setting that uses an electronic file
>> management program, be prepared for nothing to
>> completely (or in some cases, even partially) narrate and assist in its 
>> use.
>>
>>>The same is true of any of the court-based file management systems.  Our
>> office (government agency, so no wiggle
>> room to run something else,
>>>unfortunately) chose to purchase an electronic file program which is
>> completely inaccessible - as a result, my
>> assistant does the entries in that program for me, and copies everything 
>> to
>> a system that I created in Word which
>> is totally navigable by JAWS.  The court programs have varying levels of
>> usability, which I was initially able to
>> get around using screen magnification software in addition to the screen
>> reader.  As that becomes a less and less
>> viable option, my assistant also transfers that information to an 
>> accessible
>> format in Word.
>>
>>>Long story short, a lot of the final choice will depend on the nature of
>> your work environment.
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Stephen
>> Alexander Marositz via blindlaw
>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 3:45 PM
>>>To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>Cc: Stephen Alexander Marositz
>>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?
>>
>>>Okay, taking a break from bar prep to answer this one.
>>
>>>Ed, this is obviously a loaded question.   A lot of this comes down to 
>>>your
>>>own preferences and needs though.  Here are some things to think about.
>> You say you are new to screen-readers.
>> Does that mean you are losing your vision slowly?  If so, I found that
>> window-eyes has some stability issues, that
>> Jaws and NVDA do not, not at first, but after a few hours of use.  If you
>> have enough residual vision to recover
>> the program when this happens, then this will not be a problem for you.
>>>Next, are you a braille reader who uses a braille display?  I find that 
>>>in
>> terms of connectivity, NVDA presents
>> the least difficulty connecting and configuring your braille display.  If
>> you test it out, and find that you have
>> no trouble connecting your braille display to Jaws and Window-eyes, then 
>> I
>> would say that all three are superior at
>> outputting braille, even to Voiceover.
>>>Do you work in a corporate environment?  Do you use a virtual desktop or
>> anything like that?  If so, Jaws is your
>> best bet for making that happen.
>>>Also, if this is the case, cost may not be an issue for you.
>>>Do you access a lot of complex websites/web 2.0 applications like google
>> docs and sheets?  This is one of NVDA's
>> strengths but both NVDA and Jaws are superior to Window-eyes on this 
>> point.
>> Window-eyes is making strides in this
>> area but I found that many student management web based applications I 
>> had
>> to use for work wouldn't work with it
>> whereas the others would.  I would imagine case management programs work 
>> in
>> much the same way.
>>>Is security important to you?  NVDA is open source and for some, this 
>>>means
>> that it is potentially more secure
>> than the other commercial screen-readers.
>>>Learning curve. I think Jaws is the clear loser here, it is the most
>> complex, except when you consider that
>> because it is the industry leader there is a lot of documentation out 
>> there
>> for it.  Freedomscientific also puts on
>> excellent webinar based training which is superior to anything that
>> Window-eyes (in particular the free Microsoft
>> version) and NVDA have.  NVDA and Jaws share many of the same commands so 
>> if
>> you are familiar with one, it isn't
>> difficult to move to the other.  NVDA's command structure, I found 
>> through
>> training people to use both, was easier
>> to pick up than Jaws's though.  Window-eyes is completely different. 
>> many
>> of the skills you learn in Window-eyes
>> cannot easily be brought to the other screen-readers.  One thing it has
>> going for it is that it is completely
>> customizable though.
>>
>>>If I were introducing someone to screenreaders for the first time, and 
>>>they
>> were going  to be a Windows user, I
>> think I would begin with NVDA because it is free and, because most if not
>> all of the skills you learn in NVDA can
>> be brought over to Jaws if need be.  I would move over to Jaws if the 
>> need
>> arose or if the person needed more
>> support and/or training than I could provide.  I frankly can't think of a
>> good reason why I would start with
>> Window-eyes.
>>
>>>What do I use on Windows?  Well, I use Jaws most of the time at home. 
>>>Jaws
>> is what I am using right now to study
>> for the bar and write this e-mail.  I have been a Jaws customer for 
>> almost
>> 20 years except for a 3 year period in
>> the early 2000s when I used Window-eyes.  At work, I have used a 
>> combination
>> of NVDA and Window-eyes for the last 2
>> plus years (almost exclusively NVDA) because I couldn't justify the cost 
>> of
>> Jaws to my employer.
>>
>>>I hope these thoughts are helpful to you.
>>
>>>Alex
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan
>> Kelly via blindlaw
>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 11:29 AM
>>>To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>Cc: Susan Kelly
>>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?
>>
>>>I use both, depending on what device I am using, and also prefer 
>>>Voiceover.
>>>That said, most legal firms, especially in my home state, are totally
>> invested in Windows / Microsoft type
>> computers.  For that, JAWS is likely the best.
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cody J.
>>>Davis via blindlaw
>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 11:18 AM
>>>To: Blind Law Mailing List
>>>Cc: Cody J. Davis
>>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?
>>
>>>If you are not set on a Windows computer, all Apple computers come with a
>> built-in screen reader called voiceover.
>> I have found that voiceover is much easier to learn, at least it was for 
>> me.
>> It seems to be more intuitive than
>> JAWS. In high school I was taught how to use JAWS but it didn't really 
>> stick
>> and I was very slow and limited with
>> it. I think it really is a person by person basis though. I found quite a
>> few YouTube videos that were helpful when
>> deciding whether or not to switch from jaws to voice over.
>>
>>>Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 12:11 PM, Ed Rizzuto via blindlaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm new to the world of screen reader technology and would appreciate
>>>> any thoughts on whether Windows Eyes or JAWS are preferable for use in
>>>> practicing law.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Ed Rizzuto
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Edward Rizzuto
>>>>
>>>> Law Office of Edward Rizzuto
>>>>
>>>> 1280 East 9th Street, Suite D
>>>>
>>>> Chico, California  95928
>>>>
>>>> (530) 899-9280
>>>>
>>>> edrizzuto at edrizzutolaw.com
>>>>
>>>> www.edrizzutolaw.com <http://www.edrizzutolaw.com/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
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