[Nfbmo] What would you do?
Gary Wunder
GWunder at earthlink.net
Thu Oct 27 12:21:56 UTC 2011
Dewey, when you were in Springfield I tried to get you to join. I told you
how much we need people and you had an excuse about people not treating you
right. You indicted 95% of all churches as anti-blind and now you say Debbie
is causing you to leave. You have never been. You want to snipe from the
sidelines and never, so far as I have observed, did anything except to lift
a finger to your keyboard to start an argument. I do not know the city you
live in now, but we could have used you desperately in Springfield and there
was always a reason you would not commit. I guess now you have one and
someone to blame it on. I'm sorry about that. We need you and you need us,
but you can't expect people to sit passively by as you talk about their
churches in such a demeaning way. I hope you do something constructive for
the blind in your new city. We want to be your friend, and from your
appearance on the list I believe you want to be ours. Just don't throw a
stone and be surprised if some object and say it is juvenile to throw them.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Dewey Bradley
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 1:06 AM
To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
I was talking about the blind people on this list as well, they jump all
over me, that is why I am going to leave all the blind groups, some things
have been said in the past, and so people remember my name, and are going to
do that, so I get the pointe.
I just moved to a new city and whent to a chapter meeting a week ago, but
something Debby said has turned me off for good.
----- Original Message -----
From: <DanFlasar at aol.com>
To: <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>I agree - I have enough things to deal with without having to address the
> neuroses of random people at bus stops or waiting in line.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/27/2011 12:32:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Well he didn't think I heard him, he was an older guy, so something has
> up
> set him I guess, who knows, but if you read the other posts from this
> list,
> I'm the only one who has ever gotten that, I'm angry
> But I don't bother with people like that, its a waste of my time
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <DanFlasar at aol.com>
> To: <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 12:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>
>
>> Dewey,
>> Sounds like that guy at the bus stop felt inferior in the presence of
>> someone he felt had a lot more courage than he does.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 10/26/2011 11:37:02 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>> dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com writes:
>>
>> I had a guy at the bus stop the other day telling someone that if he
> were
>> blind he would kill him self, but that is just me being angry I guess.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <DanFlasar at aol.com>
>> To: <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>
>>
>>> There are always a few fringey people in every group. Generally,
>>> it's
>>> not
>>> good to elect, appoint or anoint them, much less generalize from
>>> their
>>> poor behavior to the rest of the group.
>>> And anyone who would pray for you to get your sight back and call
> you
>>> evil if you don't needs to pray to lift the arrogance from their
>>> soul.
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 10/26/2011 5:51:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>>> mdsmith25 at ktis.net writes:
>>>
>>> I've run across a few people who believe that if I just pray enough
>>> my
>>> blindness will be cured, but none that thought my blindness was
> caused
>>> because I was evil.
>>>
>>> Melissa Smith
>>>
>>> On 10/26/2011 5:02 PM, Gail Bryant wrote:
>>>> Personally, I go to a wonderful church which has supported me in
> every
>>> way
>>>> possible. When I've had surgery, the helped me with meals and
> whatever
>> I
>>>> needed. When Ed died, they prayed with me, cried with me, laughed
>>>> with
>>> me
>>>> and more. Never have they called me evil. I don't know where Mr.
>>> Bradley
>>>> gets his figures, but perhaps the reason he chooses not to go to
>> church
>>> is
>>>> out of anger and bitterness
>>>>
>>>> Gail Bryant
>>>> Columbia Braille Teaching Services L.L.C.
>>>> 1212 London Drive
>>>> Columbia, MO 65203-2012
>>>> Phone: (573)817-5993
>>>> Cell: (573)268-4962
>>>> gbryant at socket.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Debbie Wunder
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:05 PM
>>>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>
>>>> You are being ridiculous! Where do you get your facts?
>>>> This trivia night issue has nothing to do with god, or opinions of
> the
>>>> blind.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dewey Bradley"<dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com>
>>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List"<nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I wasn't going to reply to this, but I have to say this
>>>>> its been my experience that churches and church groups do this,
> they
>> do
>>>>> not want anyone with a disability around, they just want to tell us
>>>>> that
>>>>> if we pray harder we will have are sight back, and that we are
>>>>> evil,
>>> that
>>>>> is why we are blind.
>>>>> They say that 95% of us don't go to church, I don't know if the
>>>>> numbers
>>>>> are that high, but this is why.
>>>>> Most people that go to church and call them selves Christians are
>>>>> judgmental like that.
>>>>> I'm not saying don't go to church, nor am I trying to get a lintch
>>>>> mob
>>>>> after me, I'm just saying that is what I've noticed, that is why I
>>>>> never
>>>>> go, every church I have seen do not want blind people around.
>>>>> I'm not saying that is the case here, but it could be
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "MATTHEW SIEVERT"<msievert at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List"<nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:33 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Group,
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope you are all well.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I have observed is that many times people will want to "rebel"
>>>>> instead of
>>>>> remedy a situation through other means.
>>>>>
>>>>> Equality for all will not take place over a period of one year or
>> even
>>> ten
>>>>> years, but you can lay the foundation that other's can build
>>>>> upon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Representing a group in a negative light will not win over
>> supporters.
>>> It
>>>>> will
>>>>> bring attention to the issue, but you want people understand, not
>>>>> simply
>>>>> notice
>>>>> through a negative act.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some day we will have a blind/visually impaired astronaut. Until
> that
>>> time
>>>>> we as
>>>>> the NFB should do what we can to build upon our organization's
>>>>> achievements and
>>>>> represent our disabled community in a positive light.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Equality at trivia night's should be obtained, but like all
>> challenges,
>>> it
>>>>> will
>>>>> take time and a calm intellect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Sievert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: fred olver<goodfolks at charter.net>
>>>>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List<nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wed, October 26, 2011 7:41:12 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have read your comments several times and perhapse even lost some
>>> sleep
>>>>> over what I consider to be an afrontery to me and others who might
>> wish
>>> to
>>>>> participate in an activity alongside individuals who are not
>>>>> limited
>> in
>>>>> their vision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me say first of all that a year ago I confronted this situation
>> and
>>>>> explained to the individuals in charge that I felt wronged because
>> half
>>> of
>>>>> the questions were undeciferable by myself. Okay, they didn't know
>>>>> I
>>>>> was
>>>>> going to be there. This year, however nearly a third of the
> questions
>>> were
>>>>> again undeciferable by a blind person. It is my feeling that if the
>>> folks
>>>>> in
>>>>> charge know that individuals will be participating who are unable
> to
>>>>> participate in a significant number of questions related to the
>>>>> activity
>>>>> that they not allow those questions. To me, the reasons ought to be
>>>>> very
>>>>> obvious. If you alienate a significant number of individuals you
>>>>> won't
>>> get
>>>>> them to come back next year. If you knowingly allow questions to be
> a
>>> part
>>>>> of an activity which you know will exclude individuals from
>>> participating
>>>>> then you are wrong to include them. If for example I only provide
>>> agenda's
>>>>> in Braille to individuals who don't read Braille then I am wrong to
>>>>> do
>>> so,
>>>>> because I have ignored their needs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bottom line, I'm feeling ignored. Next year, I think I'll find
> seven
>>> other
>>>>> individuals who can not make use of visual questions and attend the
>>>>> same
>>>>> fundraiser and practice a bit of civil disobedience.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred Olver
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Gary Wunder"<GWunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: "'NFB of Missouri Mailing List'"<nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 5:53 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Fred and the folks who have commented here. Please allow me
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> interject
>>>>>> another perspective. I find this troublesome philosophically. When
> I
>>> can
>>>>>> have access and am denied it because someone doesn't want to go to
>> the
>>>>>> trouble of making their software accessible, I'm up in arms. When
>> they
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> artificial barriers such as possessing a driver's license when
>>>>>> what
>>> they
>>>>>> mean is that an employee has to get around, I'm bothered. When
> they
>>> say I
>>>>>> have to be able to visually read print to take a job and I have a
>>> machine
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> do it, I'm outraged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is the issue changed when we know of no way to make a process
>> 100
>>>>>> percent accessible? I don't want to deprive anyone of the beauty
>> found
>>> in
>>>>>> paintings or photography simply because I can't observe them. I
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> there are some cartoons that are so torturous to explain that by
> the
>>> time
>>>>>> one finishes putting them into words, they are no longer funny.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mental challenges may be audible, visual, or they might even
> involve
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> senses such as taste or smell. If we look hard enough, we'll find
>>> people
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> have problems with one or more of these. So, in the areas where we
>>> don't
>>>>>> have true alternatives, should our request be that the thing we
>> cannot
>>> do
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> stricken from the activity? Would we have been wrong to run a clip
>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> Henry
>>>>>> Kissinger saying "Piece is at hand," and asking the group to
>>>>>> identify
>>> the
>>>>>> man or what he was talking about or the year when he made the
>>> utterance?
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> blind are at something of a disadvantage because we cannot see
>>>>>> him.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> deaf
>>>>>> are at a disadvantage because they cannot hear him. The young may
>> well
>>> be
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> a disadvantage because they weren't around when he made headlines
>> with
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> statement, much to the displeasure of his boss, the president of
> the
>>>>>> United
>>>>>> States. Take the same question, put it in print, and then decide
>>>>>> if
>> it
>>> is
>>>>>> fair to the dyslexic who might have an easy time with the audio or
>> the
>>>>>> video
>>>>>> clip.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I Don't like being excluded, and if I am excluded enough, I'll
> find
>>>>>> another
>>>>>> activity. It hurts and seems unfair, but to me it doesn't rise to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> level
>>>>>> of discrimination which, if I understand it, means something which
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> both
>>>>>> unreasonable and detrimental. I don't think we can be critical
>>>>>> of
>>> people
>>>>>> using sight and acknowledging that it plays a major role in the
>>>>>> way
>>> they
>>>>>> find and even remember things. What we can and should make an
>>> unequivocal
>>>>>> stand for are things which have nonvisual alternatives but which
> are
>>>>>> ignored
>>>>>> to the detriment of our education and employment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not mean this as a real answer to the question of what should
> I
>>> do,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> as a thought process we go through when trying to decide when to
>> fight
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> what we can reasonably fight for as blind people. I am not
> targeting
>>> Fred
>>>>>> here but trying to engage in some discussion of a philosophical
>>> principle
>>>>>> that I wrestle with at least two or three times per month. I
>>> appreciate
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> question, even if I don't have anything like a good answer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of fred olver
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:45 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A year ago, I attended a Trivia Night put on by a food pantry in
> the
>>> St.
>>>>>> Louis area. This pantry is supported by my church along with
>>>>>> several
>>>>>> others.
>>>>>> After the night's program was over, half of the categories being
>>>>>> visual
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> nature so that a blind person could not participate in that
>>>>>> portion
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> program I wrote an item for my churches news-letter and sent it on
>
>>>>>> to
>>> the
>>>>>> director of the organization. In this item I pointed out that it
> was
>>> not
>>>>>> fair or necessary to include only video-type questions and asked
>> that
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> do, in the future consider having categories which were non-video
>>>>>> in
>>> the
>>>>>> future. I received assurances from the director of the
> organization
>>> that
>>>>>> indeed they would do this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last Friday, I attended their Trivia Nighht again. True, only
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> categories
>>>>>> of questions were video in nature, however these two categories
>>> included
>>>>>> roughly 1/3 of the questions. Yesterday at a meeting of a church
>>>>>> committee
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> suggested that they with-hold two weeks worth of donations and
>>>>>> that
>>> these
>>>>>> donations go to another organization as a protest, the rest of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> committee
>>>>>> said no to this idea, sighting the possibility that a family
>>>>>> might
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> do without this food, I personally doubt it, and figure they're
> just
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> comfortable in their place and don't wish to because it doesn't
>> affect
>>>>>> them,
>>>>>> so what would you do if you were in my place? This really upsets
>>>>>> me,
>>>>>> especially since I had spoken to this organization a year ago and
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> more or less agreed that this was not a good thing to have
>>>>>> happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred Olver
>>>>>> http://www.dealingwithvisionloss.com For some of us it's a way of
>> life
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> for some of us it just makes life easier. Fred Olver
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Nfbmo mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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