[Nfbmo] Fw: What would you do?

Dewey Bradley dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com
Fri Oct 28 04:54:03 UTC 2011 

 The thing is I wasn't being critical, I was just saying that I my self had 
had bad experiences, and then everyone starts calling me angry and stuff.
But I will say no more on this or anything else
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Moynihan" <jamesmmoynihan at gmail.com>
To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 6:10 PM
Subject: [Nfbmo] Fw: What would you do?


> Dear Dewey et al:
>
> Gary Wunder made an analogy between the NFB and a small canoe.  We have a 
> small canoe and not enough paddlers.
>
> My advice to you is to get in or get out.  I don't understand why you read 
> our emails and make critical comments if you are not a member.  We have to 
> waste our time reading our critical comments.
>
> When I moved to Saint Louis I joined Mary Mother of the Churdch and I 
> participate in their activities. They have learned that it is a stick not 
> a cane and that blind people can participate intelligently in group 
> activities.  Ignorance regarding blindness is rampant throughout our 
> society so it is inappropriate to dwell on church members.  Cordially
>
> Jim MoynihanWe have a few
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com>
> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>
>
>> nope, I don't think you will see me at anything
>> have a good day
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Debbie Wunder" <debbiewunder at centurytel.net>
>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 7:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>
>>
>>> Dewey, we would love to have you as a member, if you choose not to be 
>>> then both you and the NFB are being short changed. It seems to me that 
>>> you often dwell on the negative instead of the positive. Yes I have her 
>>> negative comments about the blind even from the church groups, But what 
>>> is ridiculous is the thought that a trivia game is made difficult to 
>>> keep the blind away.
>>>
>>> We will have a meeting in Springfield the first Saturday in November, 
>>> would you like to join us? We would like to have you. If you would like 
>>> more information please let me know.
>>>
>>> Hope to see you there!
>>> Debbie
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com>
>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 11:32 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>
>>>
>>>>A blind pastor said it, like I said, I don't know if the numbers are 
>>>>that high, nore can they tell who goes.
>>>>
>>>> But thank you for calling me ridiculous, it really encourages people to 
>>>> join the groups and go to the chapter meetings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Debbie Wunder" <debbiewunder at centurytel.net>
>>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:04 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You are being ridiculous! Where do you get your facts?
>>>>> This trivia night issue has nothing to do with god, or opinions of the 
>>>>> blind.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com>
>>>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I wasn't going to reply to this, but I have to say this
>>>>>> its been my experience that churches and church groups do this, they 
>>>>>> do not want anyone with a disability around, they just want to tell 
>>>>>> us that if we pray harder we will have are sight back, and that we 
>>>>>> are evil, that is why we are blind.
>>>>>> They say that 95% of us don't go to church, I don't know if the 
>>>>>> numbers are that high, but this is why.
>>>>>> Most people that go to church and call them selves Christians are 
>>>>>> judgmental like that.
>>>>>> I'm not saying don't go to church, nor am I trying to get a lintch 
>>>>>> mob after me, I'm just saying that is what I've noticed, that is why 
>>>>>> I never go, every church I have seen do not want blind people around.
>>>>>> I'm not saying that is the case here, but it could be
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: "MATTHEW SIEVERT" <msievert at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:33 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Group,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope you are all well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I have observed is that many times people will want to "rebel" 
>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>> remedy a situation through other means.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Equality for all will not take place over a period of one year or 
>>>>>> even ten
>>>>>> years, but you can lay the foundation that other's can build upon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Representing a group in a negative light will not win over 
>>>>>> supporters. It will
>>>>>> bring attention to the issue, but you want people understand, not 
>>>>>> simply notice
>>>>>> through a negative act.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some day we will have a blind/visually impaired astronaut. Until that 
>>>>>> time we as
>>>>>> the NFB should do what we can to build upon our organization's 
>>>>>> achievements and
>>>>>> represent our disabled community in a positive light.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Equality at trivia night's should be obtained, but like all 
>>>>>> challenges, it will
>>>>>> take time and a calm intellect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt Sievert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: fred olver <goodfolks at charter.net>
>>>>>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wed, October 26, 2011 7:41:12 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have read your comments several times and perhapse even lost some 
>>>>>> sleep
>>>>>> over what I consider to be an afrontery to me and others who might 
>>>>>> wish to
>>>>>> participate in an activity alongside individuals who are not limited 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> their vision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me say first of all that a year ago I confronted this situation 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> explained to the individuals in charge that I felt wronged because 
>>>>>> half of
>>>>>> the questions were undeciferable by myself. Okay, they didn't know I 
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> going to be there. This year, however nearly a third of the questions 
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> again undeciferable by a blind person. It is my feeling that if the 
>>>>>> folks in
>>>>>> charge know that individuals will be participating who are unable to
>>>>>> participate in a significant number of questions related to the 
>>>>>> activity
>>>>>> that they not allow those questions. To me, the reasons ought to be 
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> obvious. If you alienate a significant number of individuals you 
>>>>>> won't get
>>>>>> them to come back next year. If you knowingly allow questions to be a 
>>>>>> part
>>>>>> of an activity which you know will exclude individuals from 
>>>>>> participating
>>>>>> then you are wrong to include them. If for example I only provide 
>>>>>> agenda's
>>>>>> in Braille to individuals who don't read Braille then I am wrong to 
>>>>>> do so,
>>>>>> because I have ignored their needs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bottom line, I'm feeling ignored. Next year, I think I'll find seven 
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> individuals who can not make use of visual questions and attend the 
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> fundraiser and practice a bit of civil disobedience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred Olver
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: "Gary Wunder" <GWunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> To: "'NFB of Missouri Mailing List'" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 5:53 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Fred and the folks who have commented here. Please allow me to
>>>>>>> interject
>>>>>>> another perspective. I find this troublesome philosophically. When I 
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> have access and am denied it because someone doesn't want to go to 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> trouble of making their software accessible, I'm up in arms. When 
>>>>>>> they use
>>>>>>> artificial barriers such as possessing a driver's license when what 
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> mean is that an employee has to get around, I'm bothered. When they 
>>>>>>> say I
>>>>>>> have to be able to visually read print to take a job and I have a 
>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> do it, I'm outraged.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How is the issue changed when we know of no way to make a process 
>>>>>>> 100
>>>>>>> percent accessible? I don't want to deprive anyone of the beauty 
>>>>>>> found in
>>>>>>> paintings or photography simply because I can't observe them. I 
>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>> there are some cartoons that are so torturous to explain that by the 
>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>> one finishes putting them into words, they are no longer funny.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mental challenges may be audible, visual, or they might even involve 
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> senses such as taste or smell. If we look hard enough, we'll find 
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> have problems with one or more of these. So, in the areas where we 
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> have true alternatives, should our request be that the thing we 
>>>>>>> cannot do
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> stricken from the activity? Would we have been wrong to run a clip 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> Henry
>>>>>>> Kissinger saying "Piece is at hand," and asking the group to 
>>>>>>> identify the
>>>>>>> man or what he was talking about or the year when he made the 
>>>>>>> utterance?
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> blind are at something of a disadvantage because we cannot see him. 
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> deaf
>>>>>>> are at a disadvantage because they cannot hear him. The young may 
>>>>>>> well be
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> a disadvantage because they weren't around when he made headlines 
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> statement, much to the displeasure of his boss, the president of the
>>>>>>> United
>>>>>>> States. Take the same question, put it in print, and then decide if 
>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>> fair to the dyslexic who might have an easy time with the audio or 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> video
>>>>>>> clip.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I Don't like being excluded, and if I am excluded enough, I'll find
>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>> activity. It hurts and seems unfair, but to me it doesn't rise to 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>> of discrimination which, if I understand it, means something which 
>>>>>>> is both
>>>>>>> unreasonable and detrimental. I don't think we can be critical of 
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> using sight and acknowledging that it plays a major role in the way 
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> find and even remember things. What we can and should make an 
>>>>>>> unequivocal
>>>>>>> stand for are things which have nonvisual alternatives but which are
>>>>>>> ignored
>>>>>>> to the detriment of our education and employment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do not mean this as a real answer to the question of what should I 
>>>>>>> do,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> as a thought process we go through when trying to decide when to 
>>>>>>> fight and
>>>>>>> what we can reasonably fight for as blind people. I am not targeting 
>>>>>>> Fred
>>>>>>> here but trying to engage in some discussion of a philosophical 
>>>>>>> principle
>>>>>>> that I wrestle with at least two or three times per month. I 
>>>>>>> appreciate
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> question, even if I don't have anything like a good answer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of fred olver
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:45 AM
>>>>>>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A year ago, I attended a Trivia Night put on by a food pantry in the 
>>>>>>> St.
>>>>>>> Louis area. This pantry is supported by my church along with several
>>>>>>> others.
>>>>>>> After the night's program was over, half of the categories being 
>>>>>>> visual in
>>>>>>> nature so that a blind person could not participate in that portion 
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> program I wrote an item for my churches news-letter and sent it on 
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> director of the organization. In this item I pointed out that it was 
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> fair or necessary to include only video-type questions and asked 
>>>>>>> that they
>>>>>>> do, in the future consider having categories which were non-video in 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> future. I received assurances from the director of the organization 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> indeed they would do this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last Friday, I attended their Trivia Nighht again. True, only two
>>>>>>> categories
>>>>>>> of questions were video in nature, however these two categories 
>>>>>>> included
>>>>>>> roughly 1/3 of the questions. Yesterday at a meeting of a church 
>>>>>>> committee
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> suggested that they with-hold two weeks worth of donations and that 
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> donations go to another organization as a protest, the rest of the
>>>>>>> committee
>>>>>>> said no to this idea, sighting the possibility that a family might 
>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>> do without this food, I personally doubt it, and figure they're just 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> comfortable in their place and don't wish to because it doesn't 
>>>>>>> affect
>>>>>>> them,
>>>>>>> so what would you do if you were in my place? This really upsets me,
>>>>>>> especially since I had spoken to this organization a year ago and 
>>>>>>> they had
>>>>>>> more or less agreed that this was not a good thing to have happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fred Olver
>>>>>>> http://www.dealingwithvisionloss.com For some of us it's a way of 
>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> for some of us it just makes life easier. Fred Olver
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Nfbmo mailing list
>>>>>>> Nfbmo at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbmo_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Nfbmo:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Nfbmo mailing list
>>>>>>> Nfbmo at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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