[Nfbmo] Fw: What would you do?

James Moynihan jamesmmoynihan at gmail.com
Thu Oct 27 23:10:01 UTC 2011 

Dear Dewey et al:

Gary Wunder made an analogy between the NFB and a small canoe.  We have a 
small canoe and not enough paddlers.

My advice to you is to get in or get out.  I don't understand why you read 
our emails and make critical comments if you are not a member.  We have to 
waste our time reading our critical comments.

When I moved to Saint Louis I joined Mary Mother of the Churdch and I 
participate in their activities. They have learned that it is a stick not a 
cane and that blind people can participate intelligently in group 
activities.  Ignorance regarding blindness is rampant throughout our society 
so it is inappropriate to dwell on church members.  Cordially

Jim MoynihanWe have a few
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com>
To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?


> nope, I don't think you will see me at anything
> have a good day
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Debbie Wunder" <debbiewunder at centurytel.net>
> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 7:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>
>
>> Dewey, we would love to have you as a member, if you choose not to be 
>> then both you and the NFB are being short changed. It seems to me that 
>> you often dwell on the negative instead of the positive. Yes I have her 
>> negative comments about the blind even from the church groups, But what 
>> is ridiculous is the thought that a trivia game is made difficult to keep 
>> the blind away.
>>
>> We will have a meeting in Springfield the first Saturday in November, 
>> would you like to join us? We would like to have you. If you would like 
>> more information please let me know.
>>
>> Hope to see you there!
>> Debbie
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com>
>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 11:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>
>>
>>>A blind pastor said it, like I said, I don't know if the numbers are that 
>>>high, nore can they tell who goes.
>>>
>>> But thank you for calling me ridiculous, it really encourages people to 
>>> join the groups and go to the chapter meetings.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Debbie Wunder" <debbiewunder at centurytel.net>
>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:04 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>
>>>
>>>> You are being ridiculous! Where do you get your facts?
>>>> This trivia night issue has nothing to do with god, or opinions of the 
>>>> blind.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com>
>>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I wasn't going to reply to this, but I have to say this
>>>>> its been my experience that churches and church groups do this, they 
>>>>> do not want anyone with a disability around, they just want to tell us 
>>>>> that if we pray harder we will have are sight back, and that we are 
>>>>> evil, that is why we are blind.
>>>>> They say that 95% of us don't go to church, I don't know if the 
>>>>> numbers are that high, but this is why.
>>>>> Most people that go to church and call them selves Christians are 
>>>>> judgmental like that.
>>>>> I'm not saying don't go to church, nor am I trying to get a lintch mob 
>>>>> after me, I'm just saying that is what I've noticed, that is why I 
>>>>> never go, every church I have seen do not want blind people around.
>>>>> I'm not saying that is the case here, but it could be
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "MATTHEW SIEVERT" <msievert at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:33 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Group,
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope you are all well.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I have observed is that many times people will want to "rebel" 
>>>>> instead of
>>>>> remedy a situation through other means.
>>>>>
>>>>> Equality for all will not take place over a period of one year or even 
>>>>> ten
>>>>> years, but you can lay the foundation that other's can build upon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Representing a group in a negative light will not win over supporters. 
>>>>> It will
>>>>> bring attention to the issue, but you want people understand, not 
>>>>> simply notice
>>>>> through a negative act.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some day we will have a blind/visually impaired astronaut. Until that 
>>>>> time we as
>>>>> the NFB should do what we can to build upon our organization's 
>>>>> achievements and
>>>>> represent our disabled community in a positive light.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Equality at trivia night's should be obtained, but like all 
>>>>> challenges, it will
>>>>> take time and a calm intellect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Sievert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: fred olver <goodfolks at charter.net>
>>>>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wed, October 26, 2011 7:41:12 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have read your comments several times and perhapse even lost some 
>>>>> sleep
>>>>> over what I consider to be an afrontery to me and others who might 
>>>>> wish to
>>>>> participate in an activity alongside individuals who are not limited 
>>>>> in
>>>>> their vision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me say first of all that a year ago I confronted this situation 
>>>>> and
>>>>> explained to the individuals in charge that I felt wronged because 
>>>>> half of
>>>>> the questions were undeciferable by myself. Okay, they didn't know I 
>>>>> was
>>>>> going to be there. This year, however nearly a third of the questions 
>>>>> were
>>>>> again undeciferable by a blind person. It is my feeling that if the 
>>>>> folks in
>>>>> charge know that individuals will be participating who are unable to
>>>>> participate in a significant number of questions related to the 
>>>>> activity
>>>>> that they not allow those questions. To me, the reasons ought to be 
>>>>> very
>>>>> obvious. If you alienate a significant number of individuals you won't 
>>>>> get
>>>>> them to come back next year. If you knowingly allow questions to be a 
>>>>> part
>>>>> of an activity which you know will exclude individuals from 
>>>>> participating
>>>>> then you are wrong to include them. If for example I only provide 
>>>>> agenda's
>>>>> in Braille to individuals who don't read Braille then I am wrong to do 
>>>>> so,
>>>>> because I have ignored their needs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bottom line, I'm feeling ignored. Next year, I think I'll find seven 
>>>>> other
>>>>> individuals who can not make use of visual questions and attend the 
>>>>> same
>>>>> fundraiser and practice a bit of civil disobedience.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred Olver
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Gary Wunder" <GWunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: "'NFB of Missouri Mailing List'" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 5:53 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Fred and the folks who have commented here. Please allow me to
>>>>>> interject
>>>>>> another perspective. I find this troublesome philosophically. When I 
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> have access and am denied it because someone doesn't want to go to 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> trouble of making their software accessible, I'm up in arms. When 
>>>>>> they use
>>>>>> artificial barriers such as possessing a driver's license when what 
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> mean is that an employee has to get around, I'm bothered. When they 
>>>>>> say I
>>>>>> have to be able to visually read print to take a job and I have a 
>>>>>> machine
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> do it, I'm outraged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is the issue changed when we know of no way to make a process 100
>>>>>> percent accessible? I don't want to deprive anyone of the beauty 
>>>>>> found in
>>>>>> paintings or photography simply because I can't observe them. I 
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> there are some cartoons that are so torturous to explain that by the 
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> one finishes putting them into words, they are no longer funny.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mental challenges may be audible, visual, or they might even involve 
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> senses such as taste or smell. If we look hard enough, we'll find 
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> have problems with one or more of these. So, in the areas where we 
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> have true alternatives, should our request be that the thing we 
>>>>>> cannot do
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> stricken from the activity? Would we have been wrong to run a clip of
>>>>>> Henry
>>>>>> Kissinger saying "Piece is at hand," and asking the group to identify 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> man or what he was talking about or the year when he made the 
>>>>>> utterance?
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> blind are at something of a disadvantage because we cannot see him. 
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> deaf
>>>>>> are at a disadvantage because they cannot hear him. The young may 
>>>>>> well be
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> a disadvantage because they weren't around when he made headlines 
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> statement, much to the displeasure of his boss, the president of the
>>>>>> United
>>>>>> States. Take the same question, put it in print, and then decide if 
>>>>>> it is
>>>>>> fair to the dyslexic who might have an easy time with the audio or 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> video
>>>>>> clip.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I Don't like being excluded, and if I am excluded enough, I'll find
>>>>>> another
>>>>>> activity. It hurts and seems unfair, but to me it doesn't rise to the
>>>>>> level
>>>>>> of discrimination which, if I understand it, means something which is 
>>>>>> both
>>>>>> unreasonable and detrimental. I don't think we can be critical of 
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> using sight and acknowledging that it plays a major role in the way 
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> find and even remember things. What we can and should make an 
>>>>>> unequivocal
>>>>>> stand for are things which have nonvisual alternatives but which are
>>>>>> ignored
>>>>>> to the detriment of our education and employment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not mean this as a real answer to the question of what should I 
>>>>>> do,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> as a thought process we go through when trying to decide when to 
>>>>>> fight and
>>>>>> what we can reasonably fight for as blind people. I am not targeting 
>>>>>> Fred
>>>>>> here but trying to engage in some discussion of a philosophical 
>>>>>> principle
>>>>>> that I wrestle with at least two or three times per month. I 
>>>>>> appreciate
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> question, even if I don't have anything like a good answer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of fred olver
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:45 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A year ago, I attended a Trivia Night put on by a food pantry in the 
>>>>>> St.
>>>>>> Louis area. This pantry is supported by my church along with several
>>>>>> others.
>>>>>> After the night's program was over, half of the categories being 
>>>>>> visual in
>>>>>> nature so that a blind person could not participate in that portion 
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> program I wrote an item for my churches news-letter and sent it on to 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> director of the organization. In this item I pointed out that it was 
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> fair or necessary to include only video-type questions and asked that 
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> do, in the future consider having categories which were non-video in 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> future. I received assurances from the director of the organization 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> indeed they would do this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last Friday, I attended their Trivia Nighht again. True, only two
>>>>>> categories
>>>>>> of questions were video in nature, however these two categories 
>>>>>> included
>>>>>> roughly 1/3 of the questions. Yesterday at a meeting of a church 
>>>>>> committee
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> suggested that they with-hold two weeks worth of donations and that 
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> donations go to another organization as a protest, the rest of the
>>>>>> committee
>>>>>> said no to this idea, sighting the possibility that a family might 
>>>>>> have to
>>>>>> do without this food, I personally doubt it, and figure they're just 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> comfortable in their place and don't wish to because it doesn't 
>>>>>> affect
>>>>>> them,
>>>>>> so what would you do if you were in my place? This really upsets me,
>>>>>> especially since I had spoken to this organization a year ago and 
>>>>>> they had
>>>>>> more or less agreed that this was not a good thing to have happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred Olver
>>>>>> http://www.dealingwithvisionloss.com For some of us it's a way of 
>>>>>> life
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> for some of us it just makes life easier. Fred Olver
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Nfbmo mailing list
>>>>>> Nfbmo at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Nfbmo mailing list
>>>>>> Nfbmo at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> Nfbmo:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Nfbmo:
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
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