[Nfbmo] Barriers to Blind Employment

[David Andrews]

Gary:

As you may recall, the 70 percent figure, that 
emerged in the 1970's I believe was stated: 70 
percent of blind people are unemployed or 
underemployed.  Over the years, the 
"underemployed" has been dropped, and the figure 
has been applied to all disability groups.

The Department of Labor puts the unemployment 
figure for disabled persons at about 15 
percent.  They only count people who are actively 
looking for work.  Many people have dropped out 
of the job-hunting market over the years.

As you know I work in rehab, and read lots of 
stuff.  My gut feeling places the figure between 
30 and 40 percent, but I am no expert.  That is 
just my educated guess. I think 70 percent is too high, and 15 to low.

Dave

At 02:07 PM 10/7/2012, you wrote:
>Good morning Fred. Thank you very much for your perspectives on employment.
>I too am concerned about the fact that the 70% figure never seems to change,
>but in fairness there are things happening in the world which would tend to
>push the rate up as well as the technology you site that should push it
>down. It is widely agreed that many blind people today have multiple
>disabilities. Some of those offer so many physical constraints that what we
>have considered necessary to employment may preclude them. Others have
>cognitive disabilities and this at a time when we are said to live in the
>information age. We have made a decision in this country to do away with
>what some have called the dirty jobs in favor of the brain jobs. This being
>the case, people with cognitive disabilities will fare more poorly, whether
>they have vision or not.
>
>I think you are correct when you site the educational system and the failure
>to teach braille as a significant factor in unemployment. One cannot even be
>a receptionist if he or she cannot write simple messages in a way that can
>be easily understood. Without some knowledge of spelling and punctuation,
>things many of us get from braille and from print, one might have lots of
>information in his head but have a hard time conveying it.
>
>Let me talk for a moment about whether the 70% figure is accurate or is
>simply used so much that it is taken as truth. Jim Nyman, the former
>director of the Nebraska agency for the blind, wrote an article for the
>Braille Monitor in which he took the 70% figure to task. A gentleman who
>presented at our national convention also believes the figure is greatly
>inflated and doubts that 70% of those who really want and can take jobs are
>unemployed. You might listen to his presentation which is available on the
>NFB website under convention highlights. I summarized it a bit in the
>convention roundup, but I don't think I really did justice to what the man
>said. His name is Larry Temple, and I believe he employs our state president
>in Texas.
>
>I really do appreciate everyone who has taken the time to make comments on
>this issue. I know that Jim and his fine committee are following what is
>being said. I hope that others will offer their perspectives. All of this is
>intended to lead to some kind of program we can undertake to get more blind
>people employed. There is little sense in discussing a problem unless we
>intend to find a solution. I remember attending a conference sponsored by
>the sociology department here at the University of Missouri to discuss the
>problems of aging. After two days of listening to problems, I went to the
>project director and asked when we planned to discuss solutions. In a
>paraphrase of what he said, I was startled to hear "accumulate lots of
>money, and pray for good health." I hope we can do better for employment
>than he was able to do for the problems of aging.
>
>Warmly,
>
>Gary
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Nfbmo [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Fred Olver
>Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 5:29 PM
>To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] Barriers to Blind Employment
>
>I have not read all of the messages in this thread, however I feel it
>necessary to offer some perspective on this issue. First of all, now, for
>the last 40 or so years the NFB has used the figure of 70% as a factor of
>unemployment. The figure hasn't changed although technology has changed. I
>remember when the Apple 2E computers first came out, no change. I remember
>when T S I, Tele-Sensory Systems got a big contract withthe the government
>to provide some 600 modified systems at some undoubtedly huge price.
>Remember the Verssa-Braille, cassette storage of items at a cost of $6,000
>each, and that didn't even count the interfacing to conventional computers.
>T S I got greedy and eventually went out of business because of it, yet the
>70% figure remained.
>
>In came Windows. The developers of talking software were caught by surprise
>by the introduction of this software and it took a year or two for them to
>catch up. 70%. Now, we are still using Windows software for most computer
>systems in use by individuals and I have know idea what percentage of
>computer systems in use either on a Federal state or in private businesses
>are accessible I do remember though when I worked for the state of Missouri,
>accessing their software was a struggle at best, I can only hope that things
>have improved in the past several years. Yet the figure of 70% is yet
>bandied about, although some folks want to say that the figure has crept up
>to 80 % because of the number of aging blind adults.
>
>Now, we have the Iphone and all that it has to offer. It won't change the
>rate of employment, but they sure are nice. Convenient, flexible, built-in
>talking software, accessible with bluetooth keyboards, braille displays and
>ear buds, phones and FM transmitters. Still, what's that figure? 70%, right.
>
>Seems to me what we need is some legislation to mandate that software
>developers be required to make their software accessible right off the
>shelf. It seems to me that Apple ought to say to software developers, hey,
>would you like to make your software accessible to blind and low vision
>persons? 70%, 70% 70%. I see job listings all the time, sent out by our
>wonderful rehabilitation Servvices for the Blind, but when I call about
>them, the answer, is, well, they probably aren't accessible, but you are
>welcome to try. The NFB in this state has had alot of influence on how
>services are offered, and by who, but, what are the actual percentages of
>individuals who are receiving servvices who are ultimately employed?
>Nationally, what has changed, technology, access, but not the rate of
>employment, and trust me, with the lack of use of Braille in the educational
>system, this figure will only rise.
>
>Fred Olver
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Matt Sievert" <matt.sievert at gmail.com>
>To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:29 PM
>Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] Barriers to Blind Employment
>
>
>Gary simple answer
>
>I have never obtained a degree from a four year institution.
>
>My last degree was a high school diploma.
>
>I eventually found a task I could do for a living and here I am.
>
>I would rather be a cook though.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>Sender: "Nfbmo" <nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org>
>Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 14:16:49
>To: 'NFB of Missouri Mailing List'<nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>Reply-To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] Barriers to Blind Employment
>
>Matt, thank you so much for writing about this issue and giving Jim and his
>committee something to ponder. I like and agree with what you have said and
>find it true in my life.
>
>One of the committee's biggest tasks will be to get the currently unemployed
>to respond as well so we aren't just hearing from those who have seen the
>mountain and climbed it. Our examples need to be out here on the table, but
>we need to make sure that our successes don't get in the way of seeing real
>problems. In a phrase, your solution can be summed up as "get with it and
>pursue what you want." Again I agree with you, but is that all it takes for
>a person to move from where they are to where we think they ought to be. I
>guess one of the questions that I've never seriously considered is whether
>people take advantage of rehabilitation services but have no real interest
>in employment. My assumption is always been that a contract is a contract
>and that no one would enter into it without intending to fulfill it. This
>may be naïve on my part.
>
>
>
>'s
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Nfbmo [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Matt Sievert
>Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:16 PM
>To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] Barriers to Blind Employment
>
>Group,
>
>My name is Matthew Sievert, and I am 41 years old and legally blind. I
>currently live in suburban Detroit working for a company writing computer
>applications for the auto industry.
>
>I want to address some of the points that Gary Wunder has mentioned in his
>email regarding "barrier's to blind employment".
>
>
>I have no experience with the first two issues which are as follows.
>
>1. Lack of good training in assistive technology--there is more to using
>Jaws or WindowEyes than arrow and tab keys.
>
>2. Some programs, internet or otherwise, will not talk, regardless ones
>level of competence with screen-reading software. This eliminates jobs that
>capable blind people could do.
>
>Here is where I would like to begin my comments.
>
>3. Some of us place restrictions on potential employment that we might not
>place on it were we not already receiving minimal incomes: I will not ride
>the bus an hour each way; I cannot move to a different city because this is
>where my friends live; I do not want to live in a city, even though I know
>there are no jobs in my community and no transportation for me to get to
>another.
>
>My comments to number 3 are as follows.
>You don't want it enough. You need to have a goal. Perhaps a short-term
>goal. Do you want to live on your own and do what you want, when you want?
>If so, then effort and great sacrifices will need to take place. You will
>ride the bus for an hour. You will work for a very low wage. You will eat a
>lot of ramen noodles and count quarters, hoping you have enough for laundry.
>Eventually you will achieve your short-term goal. You will get work
>experience and find a better job. you will get a raise. You will get a
>better job. The new job will be closer to home. You will get more money, and
>you will no longer dig around the change dish looking for one last quarter
>to dry your clothes. As far moving. If it means a better opportunity then do
>it. Do it while your parent's are young. Eventually you will want to be
>closer to your relatives as they get older. So go exploring now. You can
>always come back home later.
>
>Next comment from Gary Wunder.
>
>4. I am afraid. School I understand, but what would it be like to work in an
>office and have to learn the location of things, learn the names of new
>people, and figure out how to make accommodations when something changes.
>
>My comments.
>This is called "life". Everyone else deals with this issue, you are not
>special.
>Change and exploration is awesome. School is a foundation. They give you
>some tools and send you on your way. It is up to you to follow your desires
>and do what you want. Change and uncertainty is part of the journey, and not
>an obstacle.
>
>Next comment from Gary Wunder
>
>5. I am stuck where I am. It has been ten years since I had to get up in the
>morning and meet a schedule. At one level I think I can do it, but at
>another I'm scaredd.
>
>My comments
>This is totally up to you. Look around you. Do you like what you see right
>now? if so then fine. If not, then start making notes and decide the small
>things you can change. From there you can build. What excites you? What
>makes you curious? Is there something you want to know? Even if it has
>nothing to do with your formal education or training. Go exploring. If you
>are single, then you answer to only yourself. Your parent's will love you
>regardless. But it is only your responsibility. You can start small and
>explore areas of interest. You don't need to do this all at once. A
>part-time job. A weekend conference. A meeting with someone who has common
>interests. It all starts with you deciding to do something different. Only
>if YOU REALLY want to.
>
>Here is Gary's final comment.
>
>6. The earnings cliff means that, no matter how much I want to work,
>economically it just doesn't make sense.
>
>My comments
>Number six is the best one. Since I am single and I took care of this at a
>young age. I will not have the same perspective as someone who might have
>more medical issues or is at an older age, with that said.
>
>The day my part-time employer gave me a raise to the point where I could
>sustain myself month-to-month was the point where I was on my own. I called
>social security and told them I had met my limit and no longer needed their
>help. I went into the social security office and signed some papers and I
>stopped receiving monthly SSI checks. the audits continued for two years as
>expected, and that didn't cause any issues.
>
>I was eating ramen noodle, taco bell, and using window fans instead of my
>air conditioner, but I was supporting myself.
>
>I took a part-time job up at Bass Pro Shops Corporate Headquarters. I spent
>quite a bit of my paycheck on cab fare. I complained about the cost of the
>cab and so forth and a good friend said, "at least you have a job. this is
>only temporary, you will eventually get a raise and it won't be so bad."
>Six months later. I got a raise and also the bus route down Kearney was
>extended. So things got better.
>
>The longest job I have ever had was a minimum wage usher job at Missouri
>State University. I worked as an usher there for over sixteen years. That is
>the BEST job I have ever had. I learned so much from that position. I
>learned how to interact with strangers. How to build confidence on what you
>know. How to deal with change. I also learned how to be honest with
>yourself. I learned to ask questions, and I learned to listen to people.
>Simply stand there and listen to someone.
>
>This is not a story of success, because I am not there yet. I have had many
>challenges, a lot of them self-inflicted. There have been many pity parties,
>and some very awkward situations.
>
>I can tell you that this is hard. Every day is very hard. It is a challenge
>to live, work and socialize in what is essentially a sighted world.
>
>Like I have said in the past to anyone who will listen. You have to 1. Want
>whatever you desire. I mean really want it.
>2. You have to work three to four times as hard as a sighted person to
>obtain the same goals 3. You have to have a plan of attack. It is a big ol
>chess game. Be ready for whatever comes next. Even if it is unexpected.
>4. Money, Money goes a long ways to equalize. It buys you freedom. It gets
>you tech. It takes you places where sighted people can go with a lot less
>effort.
>
>I can go on and on and on, but the the hardest part of succeeding as a
>visually impaired adult, is overcoming the daily obstacles. The actual job
>for me is not my greatest challenge. Getting to work safely, getting to the
>hardware store to buy improvement items, Having a social life, building a
>future family, and obtaining my dreams. Those are the really difficult
>things.
>
>One final note.
>A local Social Security case worker called me up a few years ago and told me
>they think they underpaid me for a portion of the time I was on SSI.
>They wanted me to come down to their office and talk with them about
>reopening my case. I told them "no". They said, "not even if it means you
>might get more money?". My response was, "I have worked so hard to get to
>where I am now. There is no reason for me to go back to that part of my
>life." She seemed very taken aback and I wished her a good day.
>
>Thank you for your time and I wish everyone the best of luck. It is a really
>really really hard journey, but the successes are really awesome.
>
>Matthew Sievert
>
>On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Hi Matt. I think this is what Jim wants--none of us are writing the
> > truth but trying to find it.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nfbmo [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Matt
> > Sievert
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 3:56 PM
> > To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] Barriers to Blind Employment
> >
> > I have very strong feelings on 4,5,6.
> >
> > I will send my feelings and how I deal with them in another email.
> >
> > I will also make sure I indicate at the top of the email. So those who
> > don't want to, won't have to read very far before deciding to delete
> > the message.
> >
> > I don't mean to "push" my ideas on others. I just want to provide
> > observations on those areas.
> >
> > Matt
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
> > Sender: "Nfbmo" <nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> > Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 15:30:56
> > To: 'NFB of Missouri Mailing List'<nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
> > Reply-To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] Barriers to Blind Employment
> >
> > Here are the things I've observed and heard. We need to get solid
> > information from those who are unemployed and not rely much on
> > second-hand accounts such as the one I am about to give.
> >
> > 1. Lack of good training in assistive technology--there is more to
> > using Jaws or WindowEyes than arrow and tab keys.
> >
> > 2. Some programs, internet or otherwise, will not talk, regardless
> > ones level of competence with screen-reading software. This eliminates
> > jobs that capable blind people could do.
> >
> > 3. Some of us place restrictions on potential employment that we might
> > not place on it were we not already receiving minimal incomes: I will
> > not ride the bus an hour each way; I cannot move to a different city
> > because this is where my friends live; I do not want to live in a
> > city, even though I know there are no jobs in my community and no
> > transportation for me to get to another.
> >
> > 4. I am afraid. School I understand, but what would it be like to work
> > in an office and have to learn the location of things, learn the names
> > of new people, and figure out how to make accommodations when
> > something changes.
> >
> > 5. I am stuck where I am. It has been ten years since I had to get up
> > in the morning and meet a schedule. At one level I think I can do it,
> > but at another I'm scaredd.
> >
> > 6. The earnings cliff means that, no matter how much I want to work,
> > economically it just doesn't make sense.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf Of James Moynihan
> > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 10:36 AM
> > To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
> > Subject: [Nfbmo] Barriers to Blind Employment
> >
> > Fellow Federationists
> >
> > The rate of unemployment for the blind is between %70 and %80.  The
> > Employment Research Committee (ERC) is working on identifying the
> > barriers to employment of the blind and possible solutions.  Pleas
> > state the barriers that you believe contribute to blind unemployment
> > and possible solutions.
> > Your assistance in this matter is greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Cordially,
> >
> > Jim Moynihan
> >
> > ERC Chair