[NFBMT] Chromebook

Wed May 16 20:13:29 UTC 2018

Joy,

I'm using Firefox version 60 with NVDA. Partly I do this for the
reasons Jom cited - cost. I am not going to spend any more of my
personal money on JAWS. I tried the really cheap version that came out
about four or five years ago, but it was also stripped of
functionality. Why pay anything?

I agree iwth Jim about Apple projects, but I've had an iPhone
grudgingly since 2011. When it comes time to replace it I balk and
study and come close to getting an Android phone, but just can't bring
myself to do it. I hate the Apple world and I don't even back up to
iCloud or store music there. I've never even activated my iCloud
account because I don't want to be part of it.  And yet, and yet ...
It's hard to let go of the accessibility of an iPhone for an Android,
even though I think the iPhone is less friendly to blind users than
even a few years ago.

Maybe I'm just like you Jim sticking to JAWS. Android is probably
maybe almost good enough .. just about. Not quite.

(grin)
Dan

On 5/16/18, BRESLAUERS via NFBMT <nfbmt at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I've heard that if you use a 32 bit version of Firefox that it works with
> JAWS.  That is what I am using and I have had no trouble.  I am using
> Firefox
> 52.8.032.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBMT <nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Burke via NFBMT
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 11:15 AM
> To: NFB of Montana Discussion List <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Burke <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>
> We were just in a strategic planning session at CCB the other day and I
> brought up the state of web browsers and screen readers as a problem in our
> SWOT exercise.  Now, I admit that I haven't used Internet explorer for
> maybe
> ten years, I've disliked it that much, xcept there are some things that I
> couldn't do or find in Firefox.  Recently upgrades to Firefox totally aced
> out JAWS - and for a while NVDA.  Now NVDA works with Firefox and JAWS
> still
> doesn't work right, though some will tell me it does.  So what does this
> mean? Edge isn't yet viable as a browser for screen reader users. Internet
> explorer, as I love to point out, is no longer a modern screen reader as
> defined by some web sites.  Jaws doesn't work with firefox.
>
> So in the past six months or so I've gone from using JAWS about 50 percent
> of
> the time to about 5 percent of the time, and NVDA about 95 percent of the
> time.  Yet this morning I turned it on to work on our Colorado Gives
> massive
> website because NVDA wasn't showing me things I knew must be there.
>
> My argument here is that we're in a crappy place for screen readers and
> browsers at the moment, but also that JAWS isn't king anymore. It doesn't
> have the advantages over NVDA that it once have, and it doesn't have the
> web
> capabilities to blow everything else out of the water anymore. And web
> access
> is where everything is now - school, work, personal banking, shopping and
> entertainment. I'm not sure JAWS is even a prince now,  but maybe only a
> besotted old earl. (grin)
>
> So a training at the convention on the use of NVDA is a good idea. It 's
> free
> and it would be handy for anyone to be able to switch over to it if they
> get
> stuck  or frustrated on a web site at some point, just as I switched to
> JAWS
> this morning.
>
> Best,
> Dan
>
>
> On 5/16/18, Edward Robbins via NFBMT <nfbmt at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Great suggestion.
>> Ted
>>
>> EDWARD C "TED" ROBBINS, E-MAIL:  ecrobbins517 at gmail.com CEO MBEI &
>> Treasurer NFB of Montana PHONE & FAX:  406 453 6678, CELL:  406 799
>> 6268
>> 104 RIVERVIEW 5 E
>> GREAT FALLS  MT   59404
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMT <nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jim Marks via
>> NFBMT
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:25 AM
>> To: 'NFB of Montana Discussion List' <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Jim Marks <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>>
>> You know, it might be a good idea to invite BLVS to provide a training
>> session of some sort at convention.  For example, BLVS staff could
>> teach us how to use NVDA on a Windows 10 system.  I think this would
>> be more useful to more people than a training on a Chromebook because
>> NVDA and Windows 10 are used by many of our members.  Chromebooks are
>> mostly a tool for education.  Another idea is for BLVS to show us how
>> to access online information about technology.  There are a ton of
>> resources out there that include text tutorials, video tutorials, and
>> podcasts.  I tend to use Blind Bargains and Flying Blind.  Access
>> World also has some good stuff, and the NFB technology folks do a
>> terrific job of informing us.  For example, I see that the NFB is
>> offering
> a free online training for Narrator on May 21.
>> Good podcasts include Blind Bargains, The Blind Side, and Cool Blind
>> Tech.
>> I bet BLVS would be pleased to offer the training, and it would help
>> the NFB-MT connect with BLVS in positive ways.  Plus, it could attract
>> new members to our convention.
>>
>>
>> Jim Marks
>> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>> (406) 438-1421
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of BRESLAUERS
>> via NFBMT
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:11 AM
>> To: 'NFB of Montana Discussion List' <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: BRESLAUERS <breslauerj at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>>
>> In order to do a tutorial session over the phone, each student would
>> have to have access to a Chrome book.  Maybe that would be something
>> fun to do at convention.  We have often talked about having a
>> technology fair.  Joy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMT <nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jim Marks via
>> NFBMT
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 8:57 AM
>> To: 'NFB of Montana Discussion List' <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Jim Marks <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>>
>> Sure, I would be willing to share what I've learned.  In the case of
>> ChromeVox, the screen reader for Chrome OS and Chromebooks, Google
>> provides really good tutorials online.  The tutorials consist of both
>> text and video-based lessons.
>> Mastering technology is never achieved by anyone because technology
>> develops very rapidly.  We are all stuck in a perpetual learning
>> curve.  For instance, I learned last night that the Android apps on a
>> Chromebook use the Talkback screen reader built into Android.  I had
>> to search on Google for directions on how to operate Talkback on the
>> Chromebook.  What I discovered is that ChromeVox automatically shuts
>> off when one goes into an Android app on a Chromebook.
>> Talkback takes over, and there are separate commands to operate Talkback.
>> These commands are similar to ChromeVox commands, so it wasn't hard to
>> learn them.  This sort of discovery happens all the time with
>> technology.  All it takes to manage all the learning is an attitude of
>> problem solving, curiosity, and time.  Also, a person needs a sense of
>> adventure and purpose.
>> For sure, the days of running just one screen reader and one operating
>> system are gone.
>> Technology is more and more going to mobile devices, and the future
>> promises more change than any of us think is reasonable.  That said,
>> it would be good to spend some time teaching one another what we know,
>> and I would be happy to do so.
>>
>>
>> Jim Marks
>> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>> (406) 438-1421
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of d m gina
>> via NFBMT
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 9:20 PM
>> To: nfbmt at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: d m gina <dmgina at mysero.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>>
>> With all the knowledge you have with different screen readers, coud
>> you teach it over the phone if someone got the same as you have?
>> So far we are in a ten not a mack.
>> I find it interesting a friend of mine still uses a mack but went back
>> to windows.
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Interestingly enough, my Chromebook out-performed my Windows 10 PC
>>> and Android tablet today as I reviewed a website for accessibility
>>> and usability.  It was a remarkable difference as my Chromebook
>>> showed me stuff on the page the others could not handle even a little
>>> bit.
>>> Besides the Chrome OS, ChromeVox, and Chrome, I reviewed the site
>>> with Jaws and NVDA using Internet Explorer and Firefox as well as
>>> with Android, Talkback, and Chrome.  The Chromebook handled the page
>>> far better than the other tools.  Since I was reviewing only one
>>> website, it's probably premature to declare the Chromebook the
>>> winner.  I'll be reviewing many more sites soon, so I'll let all know
>>> if the Chromebook success persists.  Also, it may be the Chrome
>>> browser that's best in any operating system.  I did not use Chrome
>>> with Jaws or NVDA.  Still, using Chrome with Android provided a
>>> lesser quality access than Chrome with Chrome OS.
>>
>>> I'm very sad about how terrible Jaws and IE are these days.  IE is
>>> rapidly getting out of date.  I understand that Microsoft is not
>>> continuing IE development because the company is putting its eggs in
>>> the MS Edge browser.  As far as I know, Jaws does not yet work well
>>> with MS Edge.  And there are issues using Jaws and Firefox and Chrome
>>> browsers as well.  NVDA looks pretty good, but Jaws remains the king.
>>> My point in mentioning this is that our current IT requires blind
>>> users to apply a variety of screen readers and browsers.  We talked
>>> about
>>> this phenomena the other day.   Moreover, blind users have to know more
>>> than one operating system to stay current.  My three are Windows 10,
>>> Android, and Chrome OS.  Sometime, I will have to rekindle my
>>> knowledge of Apple IOS and to learn for the first time how to operate
>>> a Mac PC.
>>> Hard to accept that I feel nostalgia for simpler technology times.
>>> To move forward, diversity in IT is a must, though.
>>
>>
>>> Jim Marks
>>> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>>> (406) 438-1421
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Burke
>>> via NFBMT
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 1:32 PM
>>> To: NFB of Montana Discussion List <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Dan Burke <burke.dall at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>>
>>> Thanks Jim.
>>
>>> It's actually about the same price as many Android tablets.
>>
>>> On 5/14/18, Jim Marks via NFBMT <nfbmt at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Here is my initial report on using a Chromebook and its built-in
>>>> screen reader, ChromeVox.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I bought the Chromebook on Amazon.  It cost $177, and it is a
>>>> refurbished Samsung with 4GB RAM and a 32GB SSD.  Its 11-inch screen
>>>> is not a touch screen.  It looks like a regular small laptop.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Chromebooks are designed to run apps and to store date on the cloud.
>>>> They primarily use the Google products such as Chrome and G Suite,
>>>> but they also run Android apps and other online services such as MS
>>>> Office 365.  It is possible to use a Chromebook offline, but it's
>>>> best when connected to the Internet.  Its keyboard is designed for
>>>> Chromebook.
>>>> For example, it has no F keys, and it includes a new key called the
>>>> Search key, and this key is also called the ChromeVox key because
>>>> it's used to operate the screen reader much like the Insert key
>>>> modifies Jaws keystrokes.  Although the Samsun is quite small, it
>>>> fits my large hands just fine.  I'm using lots of online tutorials
>>>> and videos to learn how to operate a Chromebook and to use ChromeVox.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> All-in-all, Chromebook and ChromeVox work well.  At this point, I do
>>>> not think it will replace a PC for me, but it will serve well for
>>>> portable computing.  I think of it as being like using an Android
>>>> smart phone or tablet.  Also, now, my user experience is a bit
>>>> awkward, mostly because I have yet to commit the ChromeVox
>>>> keystrokes to muscle memory.  It's happening fast, though, because
>>>> ChromeVox is natural even though it means learning new keystrokes
>>>> and new ways of doing things.  The speech is very responsive and easy
>>>> to
> understand.
>>>> I speed up the speech a great deal, and I prefer using the UK
>>>> English voice.  Insofar as I know, only female voices are available
>>>> now.  Oh, it is possible to add a refreshable Braille display to a
>>>> Chromebook as
>> well.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Facebook works very well.  I use Chrome and m.facebook.com, and the
>>>> experience is quite nice.  ChromeVox includes a feature called
>>>> "sticky
>> key"
>>>> in which one quickly presses the Search/ChromeVox key twice, and
>>>> then one can navigate with keystrokes that consist of a single key
>>>> or two keys pressed simultaneously.  When in sticky mode, it's not
>>>> possible to type, but all it takes to get out of sticky mode is two
>>>> rapid strokes on the Search/ChromeVox key.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I'm having troubles reading Gmail, but this is caused by my
>>>> ignorance on the keystrokes.  As I learn those keystrokes, I'm
>>>> confident I will be able to use Gmail with no problems.  I can also
>>>> add apps like Aqua Mail or Outlook.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> In the future, I'll provide more updates.  At this point, I think a
>>>> Chromebook would be a very good alternative to an Android tablet
>>>> because it operates entirely with a keyboard and because it's
>>>> inexpensive.  I don't think I could, at this point, recommend a
>>>> Chromebook as a replacement for a PC, though.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Best!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Jim Marks
>>
>>>> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com <mailto:Blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>>
>>>> (406) 438-1421
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> Dan Burke
>>> President, NFB of Denver
>>
>>> "Blindness is not what holds you back.  You can live the life you want!"
>>> My Cell:  406.546.8546
>>> Twitter:  @DallDonal
>>
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>> --
>> --Dar
>> skype: dmgina23
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>> www.twitter.com/dmgina
>> every saint has a past
>> every sinner has a future
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>
>
> --
> Dan Burke
> President, NFB of Denver
>
> "Blindness is not what holds you back.  You can live the life you want!"
> My Cell:  406.546.8546
> Twitter:  @DallDonal
>
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-- 
Dan Burke
President, NFB of Denver

"Blindness is not what holds you back.  You can live the life you want!"
My Cell:  406.546.8546
Twitter:  @DallDonal