[NFBMT] Chromebook

Thu May 17 01:57:46 UTC 2018

One huge problem with Android that I forgot to mention is that it does not
work well with refreshable Braille displays.  It requires a Google app
called Brailleback, but the app is weak when compared to Braille with the
Apple.  Brailleback was recently updated, but I found it lacking.  Google
says they will develop it more, so perhaps Android will work with Braille as
well as Apple does pretty soon.

Jim Marks
Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
(406) 438-1421

-----Original Message-----
From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Burke via
NFBMT
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 2:13 PM
To: NFB of Montana Discussion List <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Dan Burke <burke.dall at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook

Joy,

I'm using Firefox version 60 with NVDA. Partly I do this for the reasons Jom
cited - cost. I am not going to spend any more of my personal money on JAWS.
I tried the really cheap version that came out about four or five years ago,
but it was also stripped of functionality. Why pay anything?

I agree iwth Jim about Apple projects, but I've had an iPhone grudgingly
since 2011. When it comes time to replace it I balk and study and come close
to getting an Android phone, but just can't bring myself to do it. I hate
the Apple world and I don't even back up to iCloud or store music there.
I've never even activated my iCloud account because I don't want to be part
of it.  And yet, and yet ...
It's hard to let go of the accessibility of an iPhone for an Android, even
though I think the iPhone is less friendly to blind users than even a few
years ago.

Maybe I'm just like you Jim sticking to JAWS. Android is probably maybe
almost good enough .. just about. Not quite.

(grin)
Dan

On 5/16/18, BRESLAUERS via NFBMT <nfbmt at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I've heard that if you use a 32 bit version of Firefox that it works 
> with JAWS.  That is what I am using and I have had no trouble.  I am 
> using Firefox 52.8.032.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBMT <nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dan Burke via 
> NFBMT
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 11:15 AM
> To: NFB of Montana Discussion List <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Burke <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>
> We were just in a strategic planning session at CCB the other day and 
> I brought up the state of web browsers and screen readers as a problem 
> in our SWOT exercise.  Now, I admit that I haven't used Internet 
> explorer for maybe ten years, I've disliked it that much, xcept there 
> are some things that I couldn't do or find in Firefox.  Recently 
> upgrades to Firefox totally aced out JAWS - and for a while NVDA.  Now 
> NVDA works with Firefox and JAWS still doesn't work right, though some 
> will tell me it does.  So what does this mean? Edge isn't yet viable 
> as a browser for screen reader users. Internet explorer, as I love to 
> point out, is no longer a modern screen reader as defined by some web 
> sites.  Jaws doesn't work with firefox.
>
> So in the past six months or so I've gone from using JAWS about 50 
> percent of the time to about 5 percent of the time, and NVDA about 95 
> percent of the time.  Yet this morning I turned it on to work on our 
> Colorado Gives massive website because NVDA wasn't showing me things I 
> knew must be there.
>
> My argument here is that we're in a crappy place for screen readers 
> and browsers at the moment, but also that JAWS isn't king anymore. It 
> doesn't have the advantages over NVDA that it once have, and it 
> doesn't have the web capabilities to blow everything else out of the 
> water anymore. And web access is where everything is now - school, 
> work, personal banking, shopping and entertainment. I'm not sure JAWS 
> is even a prince now,  but maybe only a besotted old earl. (grin)
>
> So a training at the convention on the use of NVDA is a good idea. It 
> 's free and it would be handy for anyone to be able to switch over to 
> it if they get stuck  or frustrated on a web site at some point, just 
> as I switched to JAWS this morning.
>
> Best,
> Dan
>
>
> On 5/16/18, Edward Robbins via NFBMT <nfbmt at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Great suggestion.
>> Ted
>>
>> EDWARD C "TED" ROBBINS, E-MAIL:  ecrobbins517 at gmail.com CEO MBEI & 
>> Treasurer NFB of Montana PHONE & FAX:  406 453 6678, CELL:  406 799
>> 6268
>> 104 RIVERVIEW 5 E
>> GREAT FALLS  MT   59404
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMT <nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jim Marks via 
>> NFBMT
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:25 AM
>> To: 'NFB of Montana Discussion List' <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Jim Marks <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>>
>> You know, it might be a good idea to invite BLVS to provide a 
>> training session of some sort at convention.  For example, BLVS staff 
>> could teach us how to use NVDA on a Windows 10 system.  I think this 
>> would be more useful to more people than a training on a Chromebook 
>> because NVDA and Windows 10 are used by many of our members.  
>> Chromebooks are mostly a tool for education.  Another idea is for 
>> BLVS to show us how to access online information about technology.  
>> There are a ton of resources out there that include text tutorials, 
>> video tutorials, and podcasts.  I tend to use Blind Bargains and 
>> Flying Blind.  Access World also has some good stuff, and the NFB 
>> technology folks do a terrific job of informing us.  For example, I 
>> see that the NFB is offering
> a free online training for Narrator on May 21.
>> Good podcasts include Blind Bargains, The Blind Side, and Cool Blind 
>> Tech.
>> I bet BLVS would be pleased to offer the training, and it would help 
>> the NFB-MT connect with BLVS in positive ways.  Plus, it could 
>> attract new members to our convention.
>>
>>
>> Jim Marks
>> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>> (406) 438-1421
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of BRESLAUERS 
>> via NFBMT
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:11 AM
>> To: 'NFB of Montana Discussion List' <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: BRESLAUERS <breslauerj at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>>
>> In order to do a tutorial session over the phone, each student would 
>> have to have access to a Chrome book.  Maybe that would be something 
>> fun to do at convention.  We have often talked about having a 
>> technology fair.  Joy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMT <nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jim Marks via 
>> NFBMT
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 8:57 AM
>> To: 'NFB of Montana Discussion List' <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Jim Marks <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>>
>> Sure, I would be willing to share what I've learned.  In the case of 
>> ChromeVox, the screen reader for Chrome OS and Chromebooks, Google 
>> provides really good tutorials online.  The tutorials consist of both 
>> text and video-based lessons.
>> Mastering technology is never achieved by anyone because technology 
>> develops very rapidly.  We are all stuck in a perpetual learning 
>> curve.  For instance, I learned last night that the Android apps on a 
>> Chromebook use the Talkback screen reader built into Android.  I had 
>> to search on Google for directions on how to operate Talkback on the 
>> Chromebook.  What I discovered is that ChromeVox automatically shuts 
>> off when one goes into an Android app on a Chromebook.
>> Talkback takes over, and there are separate commands to operate Talkback.
>> These commands are similar to ChromeVox commands, so it wasn't hard 
>> to learn them.  This sort of discovery happens all the time with 
>> technology.  All it takes to manage all the learning is an attitude 
>> of problem solving, curiosity, and time.  Also, a person needs a 
>> sense of adventure and purpose.
>> For sure, the days of running just one screen reader and one 
>> operating system are gone.
>> Technology is more and more going to mobile devices, and the future 
>> promises more change than any of us think is reasonable.  That said, 
>> it would be good to spend some time teaching one another what we 
>> know, and I would be happy to do so.
>>
>>
>> Jim Marks
>> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>> (406) 438-1421
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of d m gina 
>> via NFBMT
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 9:20 PM
>> To: nfbmt at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: d m gina <dmgina at mysero.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>>
>> With all the knowledge you have with different screen readers, coud 
>> you teach it over the phone if someone got the same as you have?
>> So far we are in a ten not a mack.
>> I find it interesting a friend of mine still uses a mack but went 
>> back to windows.
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Interestingly enough, my Chromebook out-performed my Windows 10 PC 
>>> and Android tablet today as I reviewed a website for accessibility 
>>> and usability.  It was a remarkable difference as my Chromebook 
>>> showed me stuff on the page the others could not handle even a 
>>> little bit.
>>> Besides the Chrome OS, ChromeVox, and Chrome, I reviewed the site 
>>> with Jaws and NVDA using Internet Explorer and Firefox as well as 
>>> with Android, Talkback, and Chrome.  The Chromebook handled the page 
>>> far better than the other tools.  Since I was reviewing only one 
>>> website, it's probably premature to declare the Chromebook the 
>>> winner.  I'll be reviewing many more sites soon, so I'll let all 
>>> know if the Chromebook success persists.  Also, it may be the Chrome 
>>> browser that's best in any operating system.  I did not use Chrome 
>>> with Jaws or NVDA.  Still, using Chrome with Android provided a 
>>> lesser quality access than Chrome with Chrome OS.
>>
>>> I'm very sad about how terrible Jaws and IE are these days.  IE is 
>>> rapidly getting out of date.  I understand that Microsoft is not 
>>> continuing IE development because the company is putting its eggs in 
>>> the MS Edge browser.  As far as I know, Jaws does not yet work well 
>>> with MS Edge.  And there are issues using Jaws and Firefox and 
>>> Chrome browsers as well.  NVDA looks pretty good, but Jaws remains the
king.
>>> My point in mentioning this is that our current IT requires blind 
>>> users to apply a variety of screen readers and browsers.  We talked 
>>> about
>>> this phenomena the other day.   Moreover, blind users have to know more
>>> than one operating system to stay current.  My three are Windows 10, 
>>> Android, and Chrome OS.  Sometime, I will have to rekindle my 
>>> knowledge of Apple IOS and to learn for the first time how to 
>>> operate a Mac PC.
>>> Hard to accept that I feel nostalgia for simpler technology times.
>>> To move forward, diversity in IT is a must, though.
>>
>>
>>> Jim Marks
>>> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>>> (406) 438-1421
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Burke 
>>> via NFBMT
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 1:32 PM
>>> To: NFB of Montana Discussion List <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Dan Burke <burke.dall at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>>
>>> Thanks Jim.
>>
>>> It's actually about the same price as many Android tablets.
>>
>>> On 5/14/18, Jim Marks via NFBMT <nfbmt at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Here is my initial report on using a Chromebook and its built-in 
>>>> screen reader, ChromeVox.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I bought the Chromebook on Amazon.  It cost $177, and it is a 
>>>> refurbished Samsung with 4GB RAM and a 32GB SSD.  Its 11-inch 
>>>> screen is not a touch screen.  It looks like a regular small laptop.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Chromebooks are designed to run apps and to store date on the cloud.
>>>> They primarily use the Google products such as Chrome and G Suite, 
>>>> but they also run Android apps and other online services such as MS 
>>>> Office 365.  It is possible to use a Chromebook offline, but it's 
>>>> best when connected to the Internet.  Its keyboard is designed for 
>>>> Chromebook.
>>>> For example, it has no F keys, and it includes a new key called the 
>>>> Search key, and this key is also called the ChromeVox key because 
>>>> it's used to operate the screen reader much like the Insert key 
>>>> modifies Jaws keystrokes.  Although the Samsun is quite small, it 
>>>> fits my large hands just fine.  I'm using lots of online tutorials 
>>>> and videos to learn how to operate a Chromebook and to use ChromeVox.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> All-in-all, Chromebook and ChromeVox work well.  At this point, I 
>>>> do not think it will replace a PC for me, but it will serve well 
>>>> for portable computing.  I think of it as being like using an 
>>>> Android smart phone or tablet.  Also, now, my user experience is a 
>>>> bit awkward, mostly because I have yet to commit the ChromeVox 
>>>> keystrokes to muscle memory.  It's happening fast, though, because 
>>>> ChromeVox is natural even though it means learning new keystrokes 
>>>> and new ways of doing things.  The speech is very responsive and 
>>>> easy to
> understand.
>>>> I speed up the speech a great deal, and I prefer using the UK 
>>>> English voice.  Insofar as I know, only female voices are available 
>>>> now.  Oh, it is possible to add a refreshable Braille display to a 
>>>> Chromebook as
>> well.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Facebook works very well.  I use Chrome and m.facebook.com, and the 
>>>> experience is quite nice.  ChromeVox includes a feature called 
>>>> "sticky
>> key"
>>>> in which one quickly presses the Search/ChromeVox key twice, and 
>>>> then one can navigate with keystrokes that consist of a single key 
>>>> or two keys pressed simultaneously.  When in sticky mode, it's not 
>>>> possible to type, but all it takes to get out of sticky mode is two 
>>>> rapid strokes on the Search/ChromeVox key.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I'm having troubles reading Gmail, but this is caused by my 
>>>> ignorance on the keystrokes.  As I learn those keystrokes, I'm 
>>>> confident I will be able to use Gmail with no problems.  I can also 
>>>> add apps like Aqua Mail or Outlook.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> In the future, I'll provide more updates.  At this point, I think a 
>>>> Chromebook would be a very good alternative to an Android tablet 
>>>> because it operates entirely with a keyboard and because it's 
>>>> inexpensive.  I don't think I could, at this point, recommend a 
>>>> Chromebook as a replacement for a PC, though.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Best!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Jim Marks
>>
>>>> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com <mailto:Blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>>
>>>> (406) 438-1421
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> Dan Burke
>>> President, NFB of Denver
>>
>>> "Blindness is not what holds you back.  You can live the life you want!"
>>> My Cell:  406.546.8546
>>> Twitter:  @DallDonal
>>
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>> --
>> --Dar
>> skype: dmgina23
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>> www.twitter.com/dmgina
>> every saint has a past
>> every sinner has a future
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>
>
> --
> Dan Burke
> President, NFB of Denver
>
> "Blindness is not what holds you back.  You can live the life you want!"
> My Cell:  406.546.8546
> Twitter:  @DallDonal
>
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--
Dan Burke
President, NFB of Denver

"Blindness is not what holds you back.  You can live the life you want!"
My Cell:  406.546.8546
Twitter:  @DallDonal

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