[NFBP-Talk] Roundabout dispute

Sat Mar 16 13:38:51 UTC 2019

Thanks, Christine.

There is no snow removal from the sidewalks so you have to walk with cars in the roundabout.  The Commonwealth bought the property from 2 Townships and home owners.  The Commonwealth is responsible for removing the snow.

Passle

> On Mar 15, 2019, at 5:32 PM, christine Boone via NFBP-Talk <nfbp-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> OK Passel:
>  
> I may have an idea to run past Penn DOT though I certainly am not optimistic that they will listen to anything at all. It sounds like you guys have been very reasonable and patient until now. Passel it is good to know that you are still out there working to make things better for blind people in Pennsylvania.
>  
> I will send along my thoughts on potential solutions in a few days.
>  
> Best,
> Christine
>  
> From: NFBP-Talk <nfbp-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Passle Helminski via NFBP-Talk
> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 1:03 PM
> To: NFB of Pennsylvania Talk, state list <nfbp-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Passle Helminski <passle at roadrunner.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFBP-Talk] Roundabout dispute
>  
> Christine,
>  
> Penn Dot is aware that there is a blind/deaf person using the roundabout too.  They say it is sign fatigue to and deaf pedestrian to the blind pedestrian sign.  I talked with them when they came and saw the camera’s where aimed wrong to pick up a dog guide in the cross walk.  They asked for suggestions on what it should say. I told them the deaf/blind person can not hear the beep to find the button to push, can not hear it saying caution cars may not stop look both ways and can not hear the cars honking to have them cross faster.
>  
> Passle
> 
> 
>> On Mar 15, 2019, at 11:53 AM, christine Boone via NFBP-Talk <nfbp-talk at nfbnet.org <mailto:nfbp-talk at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>  
>> Connie: 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> You are indeed the former Connie Johnson I thought you were until I saw your last name. So it makes me happy to hear from you again! 
>> 
>> You are quite right that roundabouts in rural settings are generally not a problem for blind people to manage. In a city setting however, it truly is necessary to install an actual traffic light to go along with the push-button in order to allow us to safely cross. When I worked in Kalamazoo, we were successful in getting the city to install stop lights with the walk buttons. How ridiculous that Penn DOT would be surprised to find blind people who are not satisfied with a blinking sign telling them to look both ways.   
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Honestly, it is really a shame that the ADA does not cover roundabout crossings adequately. Let me review the law and regulations to make sure this is the case.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hugs,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Chris
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: NFBP-Talk <nfbp-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org <mailto:nfbp-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Connie via NFBP-Talk
>> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 10:30 AM
>> To: 'NFB of Pennsylvania Talk, state list' <nfbp-talk at nfbnet.org <mailto:nfbp-talk at nfbnet.org>>
>> Cc: Connie <conniej1250 at gmail.com <mailto:conniej1250 at gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBP-Talk] Roundabout dispute
>>  
>> 
>> Hi Chris, 
>> 
>> Thank you so much for your response. 
>> 
>> It’s been a long time. You knew me as Connie Johnson. Hope you are well.
>> 
>> You hit exactly on my point. 
>> 
>> Yes, there is an audible signal so a blind person can find the button for the blinking light sign. 
>> 
>> However, all the button does is start the light flashing and activates the message, Caution, look both ways before crossing, cars may not stop.
>> 
>> We tried to get them to install a stop light, then crossing would be no problem. 
>> 
>> But they would not stop traffic for anything. 
>> 
>> So, my point is that all this signage makes it nice and safe for sighted people to cross, but, since I cannot see the cars, crossing would be like Russian roulette. 
>> 
>> It’s terrifying.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Thank you.
>> 
>> Connie Scheu 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: NFBP-Talk <nfbp-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org <mailto:nfbp-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of christine Boone via NFBP-Talk
>> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 11:05 AM
>> To: 'NFB of Pennsylvania Talk, state list' <nfbp-talk at nfbnet.org <mailto:nfbp-talk at nfbnet.org>>
>> Cc: christine Boone <christineboone2 at gmail.com <mailto:christineboone2 at gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBP-Talk] Roundabout dispute
>>  
>> 
>> Greetings Connie and All, 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> As a former O&M instructor and former director of the Pennsylvania Bureau of Blindness and Visual Services, I have read this post with great interest. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> First, I commend the Erie chapter for your dedication to this issue and for taking positive action in visiting the roundabout with the channel 12 and 24 news crew. That was great stuff. You also did an excellent thing in filing your complaint. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I do have a couple of questions: 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>   The Penn DOT letter says: “There was no resolution because you believe the warning  beacons signage and other treatments do not provide adequate protection.”
>> 
>> To that I say…well it seems natural to me that a sign telling pedestrians to look both ways before crossing an intersection would not adequately protect a blind pedestrian. Even if that sign were audible, or otherwise fully accessible to the blind traveler, using one’s eyes to look both ways is of little consequence in affording protection when one cannot see any better by turning one’s head to look in both directions. Neither is it easy to hear which cars are turning into your path at a roundabout where the whole idea is for cars to keep moving at a steady pace whether they are exiting the roundabout or continuing to the next intersecting street. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> The Penn DOT letter also says that painted crosswalks, street lighting  above the pedestrian crossing advanced warning signs, and Pedestrian crossing signs in advance  of all crosswalks have been installed at the roundabout in question. I do not believe any of these assistive devices would assist a blind traveler. However, I am more optimistic about the accessible pedestrian signals with push-buttons that were also listed as having been installed there. Can you tell me about these? 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Can a blind pedestrian locate the buttons to activate a red light for cars and a walk light for pedestrians? Do those signals actually work to stop the cars and allow a blind person to cross safely? If these things have happened at that roundabout, then your work has paid off big-time. But if a blind pedestrian cannot locate the “walk” button, or if the crossing signals themselves do not work, there is more to be done! 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Thank you for raising this excellent issue. I look forward to hearing from you about the actual functioning of the ADA accommodations that Penn DOT says it has installed. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> With warmest regards to all,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Chris Boone 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Christine L. Boone, Legislative Coordinator 
>> 
>> National Federation of the Blind of Nebraska 
>> 
>> Phone: 269-329-8500     Email: christineboone2 at gmail.com <mailto:christineboone2 at gmail.com>
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: NFBP-Talk <nfbp-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org <mailto:nfbp-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org>> On Behalf Of Connie via NFBP-Talk
>> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2019 8:16 PM
>> To: 'NFB of Pennsylvania Talk, state list' <nfbp-talk at nfbnet.org <mailto:nfbp-talk at nfbnet.org>>
>> Cc: Connie <conniej1250 at gmail.com <mailto:conniej1250 at gmail.com>>
>> Subject: [NFBP-Talk] Roundabout dispute
>>  
>> 
>> Is anyone else in PA dealing with a roundabout issue?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Penn DOT, background 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> In 2013 Passle and I were both living in Fairview.
>> 
>> Passle asked me to join her at the meetings regarding the proposed roundabout at Westlake Rd and Millfair Roads. At these meetings, We expressed our concerns about crossing at the roundabout. 
>> 
>> Passle lives near this roundabout and must cross there in order to get the bus.
>> 
>> After hearing their proposal, I said…So, I, using a white cane and not being able to see the traffic, should just cross the street and trust that cars will stop for me? I received no real answer. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> So, the roundabout was installed as they had predicted.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> On October 12, 2018 Passle, Wendi, Dave and I met with channels 12 and 24 at the roundabout. With cameras watching, we crossed the roundabout a couple times. Let me tell you that it is a very scary experience. Channel 12’s camera caught and showed a car nearly hit Passle. Passle has nearly been hit at least once more that I know of. And, she must cross in order to get the bus. 
>> 
>> FYI, cars do not slow down there. In the short time we were there, Wendi observed 2 almost accidents between cars going to fast in the roundabout.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> When the blinking signs work they say something like, 
>> 
>> Caution, look both ways before crossing, cars may not stop. 
>> 
>> Let me tell you, that does not make me feel good about crossing since I can’t see the cars. 
>> 
>> Also, note that as they are going around, the noise level is such that there is no way to determine if a car is aimed at me. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> So, December 7, on behalf of our chapter, I filed a grievance with Penn DOT. I recently received their response.
>> 
>> I have scanned this letter and I have posted it below. Please read it. 
>> 
>> As you read it, please keep in mind that more roundabouts are proposed including on our Bay Front Highway which is more populated. 
>> 
>> How does this make you feel? 
>> 
>> My feeling is that if I lived near that roundabout, that my fear of crossing there would prevent me from taking the bus. That the roundabout has therefore taken away an important transportation option and limited my rights as a blind person. 
>> 
>> However, roundabouts are fine in rural settings.
>> 
>> Please read and let me know how you feel.
>> 
>> We are planning to take further action.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Pennsylvania  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> February 22, 2019  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Ms. Connie Scheu    Erie, PA 16509  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> RE:     ADA Grievance  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Fairview Township  Roundabout Pedestrian Access  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Dear Ms. Scheu:  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> This is in response to your December 7, 2018, ADA Grievance with the Pennsylvania  Department of Transportation (PennDOT) regarding blind pedestrians crossing the single lane  roundabout that is located at West Lake Road and Millfair Road in Fairview Township.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> This roundabout was recently installed to help relieve traffic congestion and reduce  traffic crashes at the intersection. It also serves to calm traffic (reduce vehicle speed) traveling  along West Lake Road, which will improve pedestrian safety.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Roundabouts are a more efficient way of managing traffic than a signalized intersection.  They also reduce fuel consumption (minimal to zero idle time), reduce the amount of land  needed for the intersection (maintains full access to Aris Drive), eliminates signal maintenance  and reduces serious/fatal vehicular accidents by more than 75%. Over forty roundabouts have  been installed on State Roads in Pennsylvania since 2005, and there have been zero fatalities and  zero serious injuries (including pedestrians) at these locations.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> PennDOT's District 1-0 ADA Coordinator, along with PennDOT's Statewide ADA  Coordinator, conducted an investigation. The District 1-0 ADA Coordinator met with you to  attempt an informal resolution. There was no resolution because you believe the warning  beacons signage and other treatments do not provide adequate protection.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> PennDOT has been engaging the public regarding the project to improve operation and  safety of the intersection of West Lake and Millfair since 2013. There has been significant  discussion with the disabled community about the challenges associated with crossing in  roundabouts.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Bureau of Project Delivery - Administration 1400 North Street - 7th Floor Harrisburg, PA 17120 I 717-787-5023
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Ms. Connie Scheu  Erie, PA 16509  February 22, 2019  Page 2  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> As a result, PennDOT added the following, unrequired, treatments to the roundabout:  Accessible Pedestrian Signals (APS) pushbuttons for pedestrians to activate a crossing signal,  video detection to activate the pedestrian crossing signal, painted crosswalks, street lighting  above the pedestrian crossing advanced warning signs, and Pedestrian crossing signs in advance  of all crosswalks.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> •    Before the roundabout on West Lake Drive, there was nothing to reduce  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> the speed of vehicles through the intersection. There were no painted  crosswalks, lighting or Pedestrian Crossing warning signs.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> The roundabout complies with national highway design guidelines (the  AASHTO Green Book and PROWAG for ADA accessibility). The national  standards do not require signals, lighting, signage, or pushbuttons  at single-lane roundabouts.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> • The roundabout provides safer pedestrian crossings than ever before existed.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> As a result of this investigation, PennDOT has determined that the West Lake Road and  Millfair Road roundabout meets its intended design purpose by relieving traffic congestion,  reducing vehicle speed and reducing the risk of serious injuries or fatalities. The video detection  for the flashing lights was adjusted and the lights now function properly. The roundabout design  was modified to address concerns that were raised prior to construction. It is ADA compliant,  meets national standards, and improves pedestrian crossing safety. PennDOT believes that it has  provided the best solution, at this location, for all concerned.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> PennDOT strives to provide the best possible transportation projects for every location.  We are also committed to meeting the needs of all roadway users. Working with Local  Municipalities and concerned citizens is one way we can identify opportunities to improve the  roadway network.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> If you are dissatisfied with our handling of your concern, you may file a complaint  directly with the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) or the United States Department of  Justice or any other appropriate state or federal agency.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Thank you for taking the time to convey your thoughts on this project.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Since ,  , L  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> fltia. 1.$  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> VanKirk, P.E.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> IAD Coordinator  of Pennsylvania Department of Transportation  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Bureau of Project Delivery - Administration 1400 North Street - 7th Floor, Harrisburg, PA 17120 1717-787-5023
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> *** Prior to this roundabout there was a traffic light and no problem for a blind person to cross. Now, since we must look both ways, only a sighted person can cross.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Your thoughts please.
>> 
>> Thanks 
>> 
>> Connie 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NFBP-Talk mailing list
>> NFBP-Talk at nfbnet.org <mailto:NFBP-Talk at nfbnet.org>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbp-talk_nfbnet.org <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbp-talk_nfbnet.org>
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NFBP-Talk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbp-talk_nfbnet.org/passle%40adelphia.net <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbp-talk_nfbnet.org/passle%40adelphia.net>
>  
> _______________________________________________
> NFBP-Talk mailing list
> NFBP-Talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbp-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NFBP-Talk:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbp-talk_nfbnet.org/passle%40adelphia.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://nfbnet.org/pipermail/nfbp-talk_nfbnet.org/attachments/20190316/d29f2c7b/attachment.html>