[nfbwatlk] NFB Cane-Related Airlines Incident

Mary ellen gabias at telus.net
Wed Mar 25 23:50:27 UTC 2015 

The specific regulation is 14 CFR Part 121.589 subparagraph G.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbwatlk [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Forzano via nfbwatlk
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 4:33 PM
To: Arielle Silverman; NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbwatlk] NFB Cane-Related Airlines Incident

Agreed. And to clarify I don't think there should be any issue with stowing
a cane by the window, but there are a lot of rules when flying that don't
really make sense and are supposedly based on safety, the exit row
regulation for example. So for that reason it didn't surprise me that he was
asked to stow it somewhere else. Unless there is a specific regulation that
allows it, it is probably left up to the discretion of the flight attendant
and who knows what their reasoning was?

Mike

On 3/25/15, Arielle Silverman via nfbwatlk <nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> .... And for the record, I think the airline was definitely in the 
> wrong for moving Sushil's cane even though he complied. It sounds like 
> a very unpleasant experience and I would encourage Sushil to file a 
> complaint. I just think that before we get involved as an organization 
> we really need to know the other side of the story, especially in this 
> case where it seems like more than just blindness was involved.
> Oftentimes these kinds of arguments can escalate and not being there, 
> it's hard for us to know what was said that might have triggered the 
> airline to react the way they did.
> Arielle
>
> On 3/25/15, Cindy via nfbwatlk <nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Apologies for replying twice, but I do agree that we should hear both 
>> sides of the story before acting as an organization. That being said, 
>> the situation certainly did not sound pleasant, and I can empathize 
>> as I have had to deal with uneducated flight attendants who in some 
>> cases have become very powerful and argumentative with me making me 
>> feel incredibly uncomfortable.
>> As for the exit Row thing, I do believe that people with certain 
>> disabilities, including blindness, can be legally asked to not sit in 
>> those rows.  If we ever pick this up again as an organization, I 
>> thought of some arguments. One I cannot claim that was thought of by 
>> Jedi, a former Washington resident. She mentioned that of people with 
>> their disabilities can't sit in the row, perhaps those who  do 
>> shouldn't be served alcohol as that could be a huge hazard. Also, 
>> ironically, I think blind people would be some of the  best guides 
>> out of a flight if electricity was lost.
>> Additionally, the entire basis for the exit row discrimination has to 
>> do with physical things that we Associate with disability. For 
>> example, my friends who do not use canes could probably pass and sit 
>> in the rows which is just something that annoys me about society in 
>> general, but certainly applies here. Finally, I would love to use 
>> this issue along with the fact that website should just be 
>> accessible, to force airlines to make their seat selectors 
>> accessible. I know people who have been automatically sat in the exit 
>> row because they couldn't excessively choose their seat, didn't know 
>> they were sitting in the exit row, and had to deal with annoying 
>> flight attendance and passengers who assumed they made that choice
consciously.
>> Do
>> I particularly want to be the hero in charge of saving people from a 
>> plane crash? Not really. If I didn't know about the issue, I 
>> certainly wouldn't be begging to sit in the exit row. But what 
>> bothers me is that the choice to ask someone to move from that row is 
>> often based on  societal notions of disabilities such as mobility 
>> aids.
>>
>> Cindy Bennett
>> 1st Year Ph.D. Student, Human Centered Design and Engineering 
>> University of Washington
>>
>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>
>> Treasurer of the national Federation of the blind of Washington, an 
>> affiliate of the national Federation of the blind.
>>
>>> On Mar 25, 2015, at 3:26 PM, Michael Forzano via nfbwatlk 
>>> <nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sitting in an exit row is against regulations, as far as I know, 
>>> though I don't agree with it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
>>>
>>> I'm all for standing firm on certain issues, but this one just 
>>> doesn't seem worth it. As long as you know where your cane is and 
>>> can access it if needed then what's the issue? I'm also curious what 
>>> regulation states that a cane can be stowed next to the window.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>> On 3/25/15, Mary ellen via nfbwatlk <nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> Your post has caused me to rethink my willingness to stow my cane 
>>>> overhead.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbwatlk [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>> Mary ellen via nfbwatlk
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 3:10 PM
>>>> To: 'Arielle Silverman'; 'NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbwatlk] NFB Cane-Related Airlines Incident
>>>>
>>>> Stowing a cane in the overhead bin is certainly an acceptable 
>>>> option, provided the bin is long enough.
>>>>
>>>> Because of having been threatened with arrest more than once, and 
>>>> having a flight cancelled because I refused to move from an exit 
>>>> row when sitting in one was not against regulations, I'm a hard 
>>>> liner on this issue.
>>>> Though
>>>> I'm
>>>> willing to store my cane overhead if it defuses a controversy, I 
>>>> completely support any blind person who resists having a cane 
>>>> removed when stored according to regulations along the fuselage or 
>>>> parallel to the row of seats.
>>>> (Mine will never be stored parallel because it's longer than the 
>>>> row.)
>>>>
>>>> I will support anyone who insists on the right to lawfully stow the 
>>>> cane in a position of his or her choosing, but I also completely 
>>>> understand and support any blind person who decides to comply with 
>>>> arbitrary flight crew demands.  When I flew Alaska last November, I 
>>>> chose to comply and complain later.  I did it because doing 
>>>> otherwise would have created significant problems for my daughter 
>>>> who was meeting my plane.  She would have understood and supported 
>>>> me, but I made the decision I did.
>>>>
>>>> Looking back on it, my hope that complying at the time and 
>>>> complaining later could serve an educational function was misplaced 
>>>> hope.  If I had been willing to withstand the inconvenience, 
>>>> perhaps the education would have taken place and Sushel wouldn't 
>>>> have had to undergo the horrible incident he faced.
>>>>
>>>> We all do the best we can at any given moment.  I've stood firm and 
>>>> I've caved.  I can justify either action; we almost always can.  
>>>> Strategic compromise can be valuable.  Unflinching courage also has 
>>>> its place.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbwatlk [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>> Arielle Silverman via nfbwatlk
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 2:28 PM
>>>> To: Debby Phillips; NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbwatlk] NFB Cane-Related Airlines Incident
>>>>
>>>> There's a third option people haven't really mentioned. You can put 
>>>> your cane up in the overhead bin. I've done that a few times when 
>>>> either it wouldn't fit by the window or the flight attendant 
>>>> mistakenly thought it wasn't allowed by the window. Putting your 
>>>> cane up overhead pacifies the flight attendants without making you 
>>>> lose access to your cane if you need it. If asked to put it up, I 
>>>> stow it with the flight attendant watching, or we stow it together, 
>>>> and I make sure it is close to my seat. I explain that I want to be 
>>>> compliant but I also want to know where my cane is in the event of 
>>>> an emergency.
>>>> This has always worked fine. Again, it's best to put it by the 
>>>> window, but in the occasional event that putting it by the window 
>>>> presents a problem, putting it up overhead is a good compromise. 
>>>> Just make sure it's anchored behind another bag so it doesn't fall 
>>>> on your head when you go to take it down.
>>>> Best, Arielle
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/25/15, Debby Phillips via nfbwatlk <nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Julie, not ragging on you for giving them the cane, but when 
>>>>> people do that it does make it harder for those of us who don't 
>>>>> want to give up our canes.  I'LL gladly give it up if it won't fit 
>>>>> between the wall and the window, but I'm not giving it up if it 
>>>>> fits.  It's illegal for them to ask it, and I'm not giving my cane 
>>>>> up.  Hopefully there will be no incidents the next time ow have to 
>>>>> fly Alaska.  Of course, I still might only have my funky folding 
>>>>> cane.  I remember reading articles in old Braille Monitors about 
>>>>> people refusing to give up their canes and being arrested.  It's 
>>>>> kind of like I won't leave a restaurant when I have my dog just 
>>>>> because somebody doesn't know the law.  People have fought too 
>>>>> hard for the rights we have to give up our canes
>>>>> and/oor dogs.    Peace,    Debby
>>>>>
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