[Ohio-talk] voc rehab and unreasonable acommodations

Rachel Kuntz rachelrkuntz at gmail.com
Fri Oct 9 14:28:52 UTC 2015


As someone who became blind as an adult, I would love the chance to learn about advocacy. Perhaps some of the esteemed advocates in the NFB could create a weekend retreat. I would be the first to register. Topics could include employment, VR, government policy, and so on.

Warmly,
Rachel Kuntz

> On Oct 9, 2015, at 8:53 AM, Cheryl Fischer via Ohio-talk <ohio-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Marianne, 
> 
> I think that formal training in how to advocate for oneself can put the idea in one's head that one has the right to do so, but like most things in life, watching others do it and having the opportunity to do it yourself in real life is most beneficial. I wish the schools would be more comfortable connecting students with the NFB and other disability organizations where young people could observe and take part in advocacy efforts and be supported and advised as they try to advocate for themselves.
> 
> Cheryl
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ohio-talk [mailto:ohio-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne Denning via Ohio-talk
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:08 AM
> To: NFB of Ohio Announcement and Discussion List
> Cc: Marianne Denning
> Subject: [Ohio-talk] voc rehab and unreasonable acommodations
> 
> Annette, you bring up some good points so I have changed the subject to reflect your concerns.
> 
> I think training for people who are receiving rehab services would be terrific.  I am advocating for families with children in school who are visually impaired.  Maybe we need something similar so blind adults can learn to successfully advocate for ourselves.  I have tried to get schools interested in teaching advocacy to high school students with disabilities but there is no interest so many people continue into adulthood without this critical skill.  If we learn to advocate than we can have more control in determining how we interact with voc rehab.
> 
> I hope othrs will comment.
> 
> 
> 
>> On 10/7/15, Annette Lutz via Ohio-talk <ohio-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I have been reading this thread with quite a bit of interest, because, 
>> like the rest of you, I have had the "wheelchair" argument in 
>> airports.  Deborah, your article was great, and showed our point of 
>> view exactly.  Your expression of the frustration was right on.  I 
>> have to say that I feel bad for the workers who are the ones who are 
>> stuck between our frustration and the unreasonable dictates of their 
>> employers, feeling that they have to make us use the wheelchair 
>> against our wishes or feel the fear of loosing their jobs.  The answer is definitely education at the higher levels.
>> 
>> However, I wanted to take this discussion another direction.  I have 
>> been particuliarly interested in the legal discussion concerning the 
>> ADA and our right to decide what accomodations are appropriate for us as blind people.
>> Does this right also extend to the area of vocational rehabilitation.  
>> In a sense, the entire concept of VR is an accommodation for those of 
>> us with disabilities to find and keep employment.  Their purpose is to 
>> assist disabled people in the areas of training and accessability to 
>> make us employable on the same level as non-disabled people.  However, 
>> just like in the airport, we as those disabled people are subjected to 
>> many inappropriate "accomodations."  Just like the unrequired 
>> wheelchair, we are accommodated to such items as psychological 
>> evaluations and basic work skills assessments, solely due to our 
>> blindness.  I have said it before, it is just as ridiculous as a 
>> wheelchair for some who is blind who is asking for assistance, as it 
>> is for a psychological evaluation for someone with the same blindness.  
>> I have personally known blind people with advanced college degrees put 
>> through the indignity of having to have skills assessments where they were forced to sort nuts and bolts, or count items into groups of 100.
>> This is just as ridiculous as the forced wheelchair for a blind 
>> person, and is even more dangerous because instead of only being a 
>> short time of embarrassment and frustration, it is a long-term process 
>> that someone is forced into just to get a job.  On top of this, the 
>> idea of using the justification of how much case services dollars is 
>> used as the excuse for such ridiculous assessments, when these 
>> assessments are using said dollars to be performed in the first place.
>> 
>> I guess what I am getting at is the "wheelchair" problem is more 
>> pervasive in our society than just at the airports.  Even though I 
>> completely applaud any efforts to curb this, and allow our travels to 
>> be more pleasant, I believe that the larger battle is still in front 
>> of us.  How do we use this law to bring true accomodations that are appropriate to the VR world?
>> 
>> Just a question to ponder.
>> 
>> Annette
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ohio-talk [mailto:ohio-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Deborah Kendrick via Ohio-talk
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 8:52 AM
>> To: 'NFB of Ohio Announcement and Discussion List'
>> Cc: Deborah Kendrick
>> Subject: Re: [Ohio-talk] Deborah Kendrick Column Please read
>> 
>> Marianne,
>> This is so funny that I just might have to quote your idea in a future 
>> column!  Make everybody take a white cane, oh yeah!  Brilliant!
>> Actually, I have noticed a distinct difference between airlines and 
>> have done a little informal digging, which is why the reference in the 
>> column to some getting it right and others not.
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ohio-talk [mailto:ohio-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> barbara.pierce9366--- via Ohio-talk
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 8:18 AM
>> To: NFB of Ohio Announcement and Discussion List
>> Cc: barbara.pierce9366 at gmail.com
>> Subject: Re: [Ohio-talk] Deborah Kendrick Column Please read
>> 
>> Maybe we should demand oxygen and a gurney as well. We might as well 
>> make as big a splash as possible.
>> Barbara
>> Barbara Pierce
>> President Emerita
>> National Federation of the Blind of Ohio Barbara.pierce9366 at gmail.com
>> 440-774-8077
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the 
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the 
>> expectations of blind people, because low expectations create 
>> obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can live the life 
>> you want; blindness is not what holds you back.
>> 
>>> On Oct 6, 2015, at 4:25 PM, Marianne Denning via Ohio-talk 
>>> <ohio-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have done just a little research and it seems like rules are 
>>> different from airline to airline and maybe even from air port to air 
>>> port.  That makes it impossible for us to know what to expect as we 
>>> travel. When should we stand up and refuse the wheelchair and when 
>>> should we just let it go? I think the next time I will not only 
>>> demand a wheelchair but also a communication device because I 
>>> obviously can't hear and maybe an interpreter because I can't speak 
>>> English either.  I think all people in wheelchairs should have to use a white cane too.
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Debra Baker via Ohio-talk < 
>>> ohio-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I wouldn't be surprised at all if that were their thinking.  Injury 
>>>> or not, as a result of the escort's help.  They're seeming to run 
>>>> scared of being fired; thus, liability.
>>>> 
>>>> Debbie Baker
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Ohio-talk [mailto:ohio-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>> Marianne Denning via Ohio-talk
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 3:52 PM
>>>> To: NFB of Ohio Announcement and Discussion List
>>>> Cc: Marianne Denning
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ohio-talk] Deborah Kendrick Column Please read
>>>> 
>>>> I wonder if they insist that we ride in a wheelchair because of 
>>>> liability if their escort injures us in any way?  It is crazy but 
>>>> just a thought.
>>>> 
>>>>> On 10/6/15, Deborah Kendrick via Ohio-talk <ohio-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Cheryl,
>>>>> If you could locate that block of text, I would be inclined to send 
>>>>> it to the offending airline along with my column.
>>>>> I didn't name them because I was already over allotted length and 
>>>>> to name the bad guy would have led to naming the goodguys, too, and 
>>>>> there just wasn't room.  But it has occurred to me that I should 
>>>>> figure out how to get this info to the folks who might do something 
>>>>> about it.
>>>>> And Marianne, do please tell us the Philadelphia story!  Reading 
>>>>> your last comment has me on the edge of my proverbial seat!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Deborah
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Ohio-talk [mailto:ohio-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>>> Cheryl Fischer via Ohio-talk
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 3:09 PM
>>>>> To: 'NFB of Ohio Announcement and Discussion List'
>>>>> Cc: Cheryl Fischer
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ohio-talk] Deborah Kendrick Column Please read
>>>>> 
>>>>> What about the line(s) in the ADA that say that a person with a 
>>>>> disability should have say in what accommodation they receive, if 
>>>>> any, and that no accommodation that the person with the disability 
>>>>> says is inappropriate for them may be forced upon them?  I wonder 
>>>>> if a page or so of the ADA with this part highlighted might help, 
>>>>> if not at the moment we are treated wrongly, then afterward if we 
>>>>> make a public issue of the incident and/or the ongoing problem.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Ohio-talk [mailto:ohio-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>>> Marianne Denning via Ohio-talk
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 12:14 PM
>>>>> To: NFB of Ohio Announcement and Discussion List
>>>>> Cc: Marianne Denning
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ohio-talk] Deborah Kendrick Column Please read
>>>>> 
>>>>> You are so right about that Barbara.  I don't think the 
>>>>> Philadelphia airport will ever let me back in again because of the 
>>>>> reputation I earned on my last trip through there.  (smile)
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10/6/15, barbara.pierce9366--- via Ohio-talk 
>>>>> <ohio-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> This is a home run. I love the way you capture the exhaustion and 
>>>>>> desperation. These things never seem to happen when we are fresh 
>>>>>> and patient.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Barbara
>>>>>> Barbara Pierce
>>>>>> President Emerita
>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind of Ohio 
>>>>>> Barbara.pierce9366 at gmail.com
>>>>>> 440-774-8077
>>>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not 
>>>>>> the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we 
>>>>>> raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations 
>>>>>> create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can live 
>>>>>> the life you zwant; blindness is not what holds you back.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Oct 5, 2015, at 10:26 PM, Marianne Denning via Ohio-talk 
>>>>>>> <ohio-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is excellent and so true.  Next step, what can we do about this?
>>>>>>> I have had the same thing happen on many occasions.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 10/5/15, Eric Duffy via Ohio-talk <ohio-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> This is a good read. The problem Deborah describes continues to 
>>>>>>>> be a problem for many of us. Spread the word. Let people know 
>>>>>>>> that Deborah’s experience
>>>>>>>> is not an    isolated incident. .
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Deborah Kendrick commentary: Airports can mean humiliation for 
>>>>>>>> some travelers. A recent midnight flight from San Francisco to 
>>>>>>>> Cincinnati held the elements all blind travelers dread most: The 
>>>>>>>> moment when one disability is mistaken for another, and 
>>>>>>>> deep-rooted misconceptions engender humiliation. When the last 
>>>>>>>> plane landed, I'd been traveling for 13 hours.
>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>> was 11:00 a.m., and I was exhausted. Here is the scenario. My 
>>>>>>>> ride home is in the cell phone lot. I ask the gate agent if 
>>>>>>>> someone can walk with me.
>>>>>>>> This is a simple enough request and one I have made hundreds of 
>>>>>>>> times in dozens of airports. I am a blind person carrying a long 
>>>>>>>> white cane. My request is for someone to walk with me who knows 
>>>>>>>> the way. The gate agent is smart, courteous, eager to assist. 
>>>>>>>> She makes the call. ... And another.
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> And another. When five minutes has gone by, I am impatient. At 
>>>>>>>> ten, I am agitated. At twenty, with a red-eye flight behind me 
>>>>>>>> and the knowledge that my ride home is just a few minutes' walk 
>>>>>>>> away, I am close to meltdown. I hear the agent say into the 
>>>>>>>> phone, "No, she doesn't need a wheelchair.
>>>>>>>> Just
>>>>>>>> needs someone to walk with her. At 25 minutes, the somewhat 
>>>>>>>> embarrassed gate agent comes over where I am leaning on the 
>>>>>>>> wall, trying not to cry, wishing I weren't so tired and could 
>>>>>>>> just start walking, exploring, figuring it out.
>>>>>>>> "The problem," she informs me, "is that they won't come unless 
>>>>>>>> you will sit in the wheelchair. She is apologetic, sees the 
>>>>>>>> folly of this supposed "rule". But I am ready to disassemble 
>>>>>>>> with fatigue and humiliation and thus I acquiesce. The young 
>>>>>>>> woman who comes with the wheelchair tells me that if I don't sit 
>>>>>>>> in it, she will be
>>>> fired.
>>>>>>>> She will either leave me here or I will ride. I sit down. For 
>>>>>>>> the half-mile distance from gate to exit, I pray no one sees me 
>>>>>>>> who knows me. Don't get me wrong. There is no shame in using a 
>>>>>>>> wheelchair. For my friends who use them with purpose, the 
>>>>>>>> wheelchair is a tool of freedom and flight and euphoria. No, for 
>>>>>>>> me, the shame was rooted in the fear that others would think me 
>>>>>>>> a shirker, a faker, a jerk able to walk who commandeered some 
>>>>>>>> deserving passenger's wheelchair. The subtext here, the message 
>>>>>>>> conveyed, is
>>>>>>>> this: Because I happen to be blind, I am not worthy of the same 
>>>>>>>> respect as any other paying passenger. If I need assistance, I 
>>>>>>>> will shut up, sit down, be addressed like a child (or piece of 
>>>>>>>> furniture), and be grateful. This, regrettably, is not an 
>>>>>>>> isolated incident. I have scores of stories from others - blind 
>>>>>>>> lawyers, athletes, and CEO's -- recounting similar nightmares.
>>>>>>>> Kaiti Shelton, a University of Dayton music therapy major, 
>>>>>>>> returned from a college abroad trip in June. The emotional high 
>>>>>>>> sparked by success in another country, the joy of having been 
>>>>>>>> treated as an equal by the residents there and her fellow 
>>>>>>>> college students, plummeted quickly in an American airport. She, 
>>>>>>>> too, was given the ultimatum "no wheelchair, no assistance. Eric 
>>>>>>>> Duffy of Columbus, president of the National Federation of the 
>>>>>>>> Blind of Ohio, says the wheelchair argument has happened more 
>>>>>>>> times than he can count. "I can be coming back from a powerfully 
>>>>>>>> positive experience, meeting with members of Congress on Capitol 
>>>>>>>> Hill or participating in negotiations with other leaders, and 
>>>>>>>> then the [emotional] balance shifts at the airport. The 
>>>>>>>> disrespect leaves me feeling insulted and angry. The only 
>>>>>>>> consistency in flying, if you happen to be blind,
>>>> is inconsistency.
>>>>>>>> Sometimes, the curb to curb process is rich with encounters of 
>>>>>>>> mutual respect, jumpstarting your business trip or vacation with 
>>>>>>>> a general love of humankind. Another time, the misconceptions 
>>>>>>>> held by airport workers result in degradation. You are grabbed, 
>>>>>>>> pulled, talked about in the third person, and given 
>>>>>>>> inappropriate "assistance". One TSA worker might allow you to 
>>>>>>>> move through the line without any particular notice, while 
>>>>>>>> another wants to hold your hands and talk to you in the 
>>>>>>>> sing-song tones reserved for preschoolers. One flight attendant 
>>>>>>>> might order you into the bulkhead row while another just as quickly orders you out of it.
>>>>>>>> One day you might ask for someone to walk to the gate with you 
>>>>>>>> and the employee who arrives is so engaging that you have 
>>>>>>>> exchanged life stories by the time you arrive. And another day, 
>>>>>>>> the request results in a stripping of dignity.
>>>>>>>> Disability awareness varies widely from one airline/airport to
>>>> another.
>>>>>>>> Not
>>>>>>>> surprisingly, that difference seems to be in direct correlation 
>>>>>>>> to the source of training for employees. If you want to know how 
>>>>>>>> best to treat people with disabilities, ask them. And then 
>>>>>>>> listen to what they say.
>>>>>>>> Deborah Kendrick is a Cincinnati writer and advocate for people 
>>>>>>>> with disabilities. .
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Ohio-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>> 0d
>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>> nningweb.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>>>>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Ohio-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>> rc
>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>> 9366%40gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> en
>>>>>> n
>>>>>> ingweb.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> c
>>>>> gl
>>>>> obal.net
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> ea
>>>>> rthlink.net
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> ingweb.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>> (513) 607-6053
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ohio-talk mailing list
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>> 
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> 
> 
> --
> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
> (513) 607-6053
> 
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