[Pibe-division] Pibe-division Digest, Vol 25, Issue 4
Judi Piscitello
JPISCITE at MAIL.NYSED.GOV
Wed Jun 9 14:40:05 UTC 2010
** High Priority **
AMEN, Sheila!
Here in New York State, we are also fighting our own Office of
Teaching Initiatives, who want to REDUCE the number of hours for special
education teachers who want to become certified as Teacher of the Blind
and Visually Impaired to 9 credit hours! How in the world are our
teacher preparation programs going to fit all of the necessary skills:
Braille (including Nemeth Code, textbook format, specialized codes) and
Tactile Graphics, Eye Anatomy, Low Vision, Methods and Materials,
Assistive Technology, Psycho-Social Issues of Sensory Loss, etc., etc. -
into 9 measly hours? Not to mention the fact that the Teacher
Certification Department is so understaffed that it's close to
impossible to communicate with anyone by phone, email, or fax, not to
mention traveling to Albany to speak to anyone in person!
Add to this the fact that far too many "regular" and special
educators are taught little or nothing whatsoever about teaching blind
or visually students and therefore are resistant to having our students
in their classes because they are so ill-prepared. This has probably
led to the fact that the special education "experts" in the State
Education Department refuse to accept the Expanded Core Curriculum of
the National Agenda, saying that it "flies in the face of No Child Left
Behind because it assumes a "different curriculum" for blind students.
Well, how many sighted students do you know who have IEP objectives to
learn to use a long white cane and/or low vision devices?
What we need is to get the attention of those who make the
national education policy decisions in order to educate them about the
unique needs of blind students addressed in the ECC and the critical
shortages of professionals who work with them! Please join with me in
NFB's TeachBlindStudents.org program and work collaboratively to design
creative ways to ensure a sufficient number of QUALITY teachers for
blind and visually impaired students nationwide! Go to
www.teachblindstudents.orgor contact Rosy Carranza (410) 659-9314,
ext. 2283 or RCarranza at nfb.org TODAY! Our students and our professions
are at risk!
(Exit from soap box, stage left)
- Judi Piscitello, TVI, COMS
Jpiscite at mail.nysed.gov
Assistant, Training of Special Educators
NYSResource Centerfor Visually Impaired
2A Richmond Avenue
Batavia, NY 14020
(585) 343-5384 ext. 427
FAX (585) 343-0652
http://www.vesid.nysed.gov/specialed/nyssb/rc.html
“The most important thing in this life is helping others to win, even
if that means slowing down and changing our own race.” – Author Unknown
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Comment (Sheila Amato)
2. Re: Comment (Dr. Denise M. Robinson)
3. Re: Comment (Sheila Amato)
4. Re: Comment (Arielle Silverman)
5. Re: Comment (Allison Hilliker (NFBA))
6. Re: Comment (Melissa Green)
7. FW: TVI position open in Madison,updated application
information (Hyde, David W. (ESC))
8. Re: [spam] Re: Comment (Mary Willows)
9. Re: Comment (Dr. Denise M. Robinson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:42:30 -0400
From: "Sheila Amato" <brltrans at verizon.net>
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Message-ID: <BAFA68A068B6437CB0666530CD17C547 at SATELLITE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey the
scope of our - or our students' needs.
We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all know)
is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
We can have poor social skills
We can have poor mobility skills
Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am trying to
convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with
unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are
teachers.
I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I will
also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher
(introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
would panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in
and grin.
This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators - or
even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
from birth to 21 - or older
those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or
congenitally)
those with vision loss and multiple disabilities
in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a daily
basis.
I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high level of
proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best
they can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational
system as well as the parents and doctors.
We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily news
and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for not
sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be
excellent - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even
without data (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the
good apples in our field highly outnumber the bad ones.
The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the teachers
with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain the
proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a system
of education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who
graduate from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and
knowledge that meet national criteria.
Sheila
From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments is we
have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the
incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction
and poor instruction continues.
Denise
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
wrote:
From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for standing up
and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over again.
It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed teachers
included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time
allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
Kirsten
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)
<nfbarizona at gmail.com> wrote:
Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out there like
you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is applied
when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely accepted as
educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the material they
teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids.
Allison
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to poor
student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as
anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their students
exel and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them
with poor skills.
You cannot teach what you do not know and students
cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research
to know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a
foolish notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going
to stand up and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills
are and test my students to show everyone how far behind they are
compared to a teacher with good skills."
Denise
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer
<carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education Division
List'" <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on. Thank
you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
------------------------------------------------------------
From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
Mackenstadt
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that bothered
me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE list.
Every time I think that we are making progress something like this
comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids.
Here is the post and my response:
Recently in response to a question posted by Sheila
one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published research
proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible
for poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full
steam ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by
advocacy groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA.
And thus far no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion
is being made that teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught
to students is not relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot
take the place of common sense or best practice. I cannot think of
another subject area, for example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art,
where a decent state licensing entity will not expect an instructor to
demonstrate competence. As a parent I would be very concerned if my
child's English teacher could not read or write English. Let us not
throw out critical thinking as an alternative to non-existent DATA
Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate research and
legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But let
us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.
Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
Mackenstadt Rehab Services
(206)419-9555
cane.travel at gmail.com
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--
Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
Perandoe Special Education District
1525 Locust
Red Bud, IL 62278
(618) 282-6251 ext. 104
This message and all attachments are confidential. Any review,
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 17:03:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Dr. Denise M. Robinson" <dmehlenbacher at yahoo.com>
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Message-ID: <759804.37708.qm at web52405.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sheila
?
I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind child
who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his
potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI
?????? Denise
?
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
From: Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
?
We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey the
scope of our - or our students' needs.
We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all know)
is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
We can have poor social skills
We can have poor mobility skills
?
Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am trying to
convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with
unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are
teachers.
?
I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I will
also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher
(introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
would panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in
and grin.
?
This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators - or
even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
from birth to 21 - or older
those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or
congenitally)
those with vision loss and?multiple disabilities
in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a daily
basis.
?
I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high level of
proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best
they can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational
system as well as the parents and doctors.
?
We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily news
and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for
not?sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be
excellent - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even
without data (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the
good apples in our field ?highly outnumber the bad ones.
?
The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the teachers
with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain the
proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a system
of education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who
graduate from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and
knowledge that meet national criteria.
?
Sheila
From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
The REALLY bad thing about the content of?these comments is we have the
teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the incorrect
information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction and poor
instruction continues.
?????? Denise
?
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org> wrote:
From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for standing up and
making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over again. It
amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed teachers
included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time
allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
Kirsten
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)
<nfbarizona at gmail.com> wrote:
?
?
Well said, Denise!? I'm glad we have teachers out there like you who
are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
?
It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is applied when many
people teach blind kids.? Concepts that are widely accepted as
educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the material they
teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids.?
?
Allison
?
?
?
?
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to poor student outcomes. I
have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as anyone else has in
the field who has good skills and see their?students exel and others who
do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with poor skills.
?
You cannot teach what you do not know and students cannot learn what
you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research to know this,
though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a foolish notion
to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand up
and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test
my students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a
teacher with good skills."
?????? Denise
?
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education Division List'"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on. Thank you for not being
frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
Mackenstadt
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that bothered me. ?I have responded
and I am sending this response to the PIBE list. ?Every time I think
that we are making progress something like this comment is used to
justify not providing for the needs of blind kids. Here is the post and
my response:
Recently in response to a question posted by Sheila one of the posts
stated "Weaknesses: 1.? still no published research proving or
disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible for poor
braille outcomes for students.? Nevertheless,? we've gone full steam
ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist.? Assertions by advocacy
groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches.? We need DATA.? And thus ?
far no data exists."? I find it astonishing that an assertion is being
made that teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to
students is not relevant to student outcomes.? Lack of Data? cannot ?
take the place of common sense or best practice.? I cannot think of
another subject area, for example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art,
where a decent state licensing entity will not expect an instructor to
demonstrate competence.? As a parent I would be very concerned if my
child's English teacher could not read or write
English.? Let us not throw out critical thinking as an alternative to
non-existent DATA Collection.? I do not want to say that legitimate
research and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best
practices.? But let us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of
statistics.?
Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
Mackenstadt Rehab Services
(206)419-9555
cane.travel at gmail.com
?
?
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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--
Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
Perandoe Special Education District
1525 Locust
Red Bud, IL 62278
(618) 282-6251 ext. 104
This message and all attachments are confidential. Any review, use,
disclosure or distribution by persons other than the intended recipients
is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this message has been
sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this
transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at
618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any form)
without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail, nothing
in this message should be construed as a digital or electronic
signature. Thank you. This information may be protected by the Health
Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other
Federal laws. Improper or unauthorized use or disclosure of this
information could result in civil and/or criminal penalties. ?
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 20:59:25 -0400
From: "Sheila Amato" <brltrans at verizon.net>
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Message-ID: <1A311A7FBB2542A3A0A5852705E0E57D at SATELLITE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would
be to try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors
that could come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough
instructional time in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or
OT, etc. I would like to see a functional vision assessment done, and a
learning media assessment done. I would request an assistive technology
assessment. I would use the Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document
the services that should be provided. I would bring all the data
generated by these assessments to a team meeting and lay it out and say
that this is what the kid needs in the way of materials and in
instruction. Now, who can provide this for the child?
As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the best
qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new) technology...
I had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training in
how to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork
and find my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have
more networks than a public school administrator in the blindness
world), but they were willing to support my need... so I could support
my student's.
As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a retired
TVI after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the
skills (or lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the
administration and the parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh,
I've seen and heard stories of too many incompetent teachers - just as
you have. I think I'm always going to be the eternal optimist and try to
find a way to fix a situation through mentorship and networking. If
they're there in the teaching position, I'm going to try to help them
get better each day. We don't have any other pool to draw from.
Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40
teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate
about 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old,
but based on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I
get 7 or 8 or 9 a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a
50% failure rate in my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them).
So, I guess that sparks more questions than it does answers. I probably
had 15 students pass braille this past year out of 30 something who
enrolled.
I'm really enjoying this dialogue...
Sheila
From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Sheila
I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind
child who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet
his potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI
Denise
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
From: Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey
the scope of our - or our students' needs.
We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all
know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
We can have poor social skills
We can have poor mobility skills
Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am
trying to convey is that just as each of our students is an
individual... with unique talents and areas in need of further
development, so are teachers.
I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but
I will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher
(introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
would panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in
and grin.
This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators
- or even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
from birth to 21 - or older
those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or
congenitally)
those with vision loss and multiple disabilities
in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a
daily basis.
I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high
level of proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing
the best they can with limited resources and lack of support from the
educational system as well as the parents and doctors.
We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily
news and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field
for not sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to
be excellent - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements.
Even without data (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet
the good apples in our field highly outnumber the bad ones.
The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the
teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain
the proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a
system of education that is broken, and how can we assure that students
who graduate from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills
and knowledge that meet national criteria.
Sheila
From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments
is we have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all
the incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of
instruction and poor instruction continues.
Denise
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson
<kpeterson at perandoe.org> wrote:
From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division
List" <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for
standing up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and
over again. It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special
ed teachers included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur
when time allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
Kirsten
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)
<nfbarizona at gmail.com> wrote:
Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out
there like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is
applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely
accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the
material they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for
blind kids.
Allison
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division
List
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to
poor student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20
years as anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their
students exel and others who do not because of the teacher who is
teaching them with poor skills.
You cannot teach what you do not know and
students cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal
research to know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put
such a foolish notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills
are going to stand up and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor
my skills are and test my students to show everyone how far behind they
are compared to a teacher with good skills."
Denise
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer
<carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Carrie Gilmer
<carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education
Division List'" <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on.
Thank you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence.
Carrie
----------------------------------------------------
From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
Mackenstadt
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that
bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the
PIBE list. Every time I think that we are making progress something
like this comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of
blind kids. Here is the post and my response:
Recently in response to a question posted
by Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published
research proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are
responsible for poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless,
we've gone full steam ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist.
Assertions by advocacy groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We
need DATA. And thus far no data exists." I find it astonishing that
an assertion is being made that teacher competency in an essential skill
to be taught to students is not relevant to student outcomes. Lack of
Data cannot take the place of common sense or best practice. I
cannot think of another subject area, for example: Language Arts, Math,
Science or Art, where a decent state licensing entity will not expect an
instructor to demonstrate competence. As a parent I would be very
concerned if my child's English teacher could not read or write English.
Let us not throw out critical thinking as an alternative to
non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate
research and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best
practices. But let us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of
statistics.
Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
Mackenstadt Rehab Services
(206)419-9555
cane.travel at gmail.com
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--
Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
Perandoe Special Education District
1525 Locust
Red Bud, IL 62278
(618) 282-6251 ext. 104
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 14:40:24 +1000
From: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com>
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Message-ID:
<AANLkTim8JZnFfIiV1qoc8_5LdQnANG8BbzA-G6LjcjNp at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi all,
Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others
have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when
developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who are
competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching
outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all my
life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that
is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working
with blind people, and I am aware that unjustified negative attitudes
can motivate many of these departures from common sense.
However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid
data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still
nonexistent, and are allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate
student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a
discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While I
know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't see
any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results
can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.
There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational
outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher
competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better teachers
would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but
still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille
proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can
easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how
teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps over
many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get either
good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious
reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for
extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the
effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if
researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can
acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we already
know. I am disappointed that the lack of data is being used by
proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those
of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of the
data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data we
are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can conclusively
win, and our students and future students are paying the price.
I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I
haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I would
be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience
working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been
conducted? If not, how can we change that?
Arielle
On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would
be to
> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors
that could
> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough
instructional time
> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would
like to
> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media
assessment
> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would use
the
> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should
be
> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments
to a
> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs
in the
> way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for
the
> child?
>
> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the
best
> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new)
technology... I
> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training
in how
> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork
and find
> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more
networks
> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they
were
> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.
>
> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a
retired TVI
> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the skills
(or
> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and
the
> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and heard
stories
> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm
always
> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a
situation
> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching
> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We don't
have
> any other pool to draw from.
>
> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40
> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate
about
> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old, but
based
> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or
8 or 9
> a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure
rate in
> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that
sparks
> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students pass
braille
> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.
>
> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
>
> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM
> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>
>
> Sheila
>
> I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind
child
> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet
his
> potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI
>
>
> Denise
>
> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
> 509-969-3622
>
>
> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
>
>
> Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
>
> We can have poor communication skills and not accurately
convey the
> scope of our - or our students' needs.
> We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
> We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we
all
> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
> We can have poor social skills
> We can have poor mobility skills
>
> Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am
trying
> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual...
with
> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are
teachers.
>
> I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber,
but I
> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher
> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
would
> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and
grin.
>
> This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular
educators - or
> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
> from birth to 21 - or older
> those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
> those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously
or
> congenitally)
> those with vision loss and multiple disabilities
> in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on
a daily
> basis.
>
> I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high
level of
> proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best
they
> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational
system
> as well as the parents and doctors.
>
> We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the
daily news
> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for
not
> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be
excellent
> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without
data
> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples
in our
> field highly outnumber the bad ones.
>
> The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help
the
> teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and
gain the
> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a
system of
> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who
graduate
> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and
knowledge that
> meet national criteria.
>
> Sheila
>
>
> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>
>
> The REALLY bad thing about the content of these
comments is we
> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all
the
> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of
instruction and
> poor instruction continues.
>
>
> Denise
>
> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
> 509-969-3622
>
>
> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson
<kpeterson at perandoe.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division
List"
> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
>
>
> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for
standing
> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over
again.
> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed
teachers
> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when
time
> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
> Kirsten
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker
(NFBA)
> <nfbarizona at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out
there
> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
>
> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense
is
> applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely
> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the
material
> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind
kids.
>
> Allison
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division
List
> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>
>
> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to
poor
> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years
as
> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their
students exel
> and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them
with poor
> skills.
>
> You cannot teach what you do not know and
students
> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal
research to
> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a
foolish
> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to
stand up
> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and
test my
> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a
teacher with
> good skills."
>
>
> Denise
>
> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at
ESD105
> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
> 509-969-3622
>
>
> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer
> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Carrie Gilmer
<carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
> To: "'Professionals in Blindness
Education
> Division List'" <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
>
>
> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right
on. Thank
> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
Mackenstadt
> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
> To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
>
>
> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that
> bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the
PIBE
> list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like
this
> comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids.
Here
> is the post and my response:
>
> Recently in response to a question posted
by
> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published
research
> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are
responsible for
> poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full
steam
> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by
advocacy
> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And
thus far
> no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being
made that
> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is
not
> relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place
of
> common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject
area, for
> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state
licensing
> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a
parent
> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not
read or
> write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an
alternative to
> non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate
research
> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices.
But let
> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.
>
> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
>
> Mackenstadt Rehab Services
>
> (206)419-9555
>
> cane.travel at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
> Pibe-division mailing list
> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options
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> your account info for Pibe-division:
>
>
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>
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>
> --
> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
> Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
> Perandoe Special Education District
> 1525 Locust
> Red Bud, IL 62278
> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104
>
>
> This message and all attachments are confidential.
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> review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the
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> transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at
> 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any
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> this message should be construed as a digital or electronic
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> you. This information may be protected by the Health Insurance
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--
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone: 602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 22:22:44 -0700
From: "Allison Hilliker \(NFBA\)" <nfbarizona at gmail.com>
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Message-ID: <8CFB2B0558E441D08258A48FABEC3E8E at IndigoPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
All,
I think that Arielle has a good point in her message below. Since
some
educators are heavily focused on research and quantatative proof, ,
maybe
that's what we should give them. I agree that research shouldn't be a
replacement for common sense, but since common sense is clearly
lacking,
we may have to resort to research. ?And why not? It can't hurt to
have
some studies and stats to back us up when we advocate for our students.
I
know that some folks have an inate distrust of research, but if its
conducted with an underlying positive philosophy and belief in high
expectations, I think we will be happy with the results.
Allison
---- Original Message -----
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
> Hi all,
>
> Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others
> have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when
> developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who
are
> competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching
> outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all
my
> life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that
> is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working
> with blind people, and I am aware that unjustified negative
attitudes
> can motivate many of these departures from common sense.
>
> However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid
> data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still
> nonexistent, and are allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate
> student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a
> discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While
I
> know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't
see
> any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results
> can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.
> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational
> outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher
> competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better teachers
> would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but
> still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille
> proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can
> easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how
> teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps
over
> many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get
either
> good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious
> reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for
> extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the
> effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if
> researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can
> acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we
already
> know. I am disappointed that the lack of data is being used by
> proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those
> of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of
the
> data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data
we
> are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can
conclusively
> win, and our students and future students are paying the price.
>
> I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I
> haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I
would
> be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience
> working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been
> conducted? If not, how can we change that?
>
> Arielle
>
> On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response
would be
>> to
>> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors
that
>> could
>> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough
instructional
>> time
>> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would
like
>> to
>> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media
assessment
>> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would
use the
>> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should
be
>> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments
to a
>> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs
in
>> the
>> way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for
the
>> child?
>>
>> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the
best
>> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new)
technology... I
>> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training
in
>> how
>> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork
and
>> find
>> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more
>> networks
>> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they
were
>> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.
>>
>> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a
retired
>> TVI
>> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the
skills (or
>> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and
the
>> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and
heard
>> stories
>> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm
always
>> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a
situation
>> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching
>> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We
don't
>> have
>> any other pool to draw from.
>>
>> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40
>> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they
graduate
>> about
>> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old,
but
>> based
>> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or
8 or
>> 9
>> a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure
rate
>> in
>> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that
>> sparks
>> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students
pass
>> braille
>> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.
>>
>> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...
>>
>> Sheila
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM
>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>
>> Sheila
>>
>> I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a
blind
>> child
>> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet
his
>> potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI
>>
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>> 509-969-3622
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
>>
>>
>> Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
>>
>> We can have poor communication skills and not accurately
convey
>> the
>> scope of our - or our students' needs.
>> We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
>> We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we
all
>> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
>> We can have poor social skills
>> We can have poor mobility skills
>>
>> Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I
am
>> trying
>> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual...
with
>> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are
teachers.
>>
>> I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber,
but I
>> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better
teacher
>> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
would
>> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in
and
>> grin.
>>
>> This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular
educators -
>> or
>> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
>> from birth to 21 - or older
>> those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
>> those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously
or
>> congenitally)
>> those with vision loss and multiple disabilities
>> in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on
a
>> daily
>> basis.
>>
>> I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high
level
>> of
>> proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the
best
>> they
>> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational
>> system
>> as well as the parents and doctors.
>>
>> We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the
daily
>> news
>> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for
not
>> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be
>> excellent
>> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even
without
>> data
>> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples
in
>> our
>> field highly outnumber the bad ones.
>>
>> The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help
the
>> teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and
gain
>> the
>> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a
system
>> of
>> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who
>> graduate
>> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and
knowledge
>> that
>> meet national criteria.
>>
>> Sheila
>>
>>
>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>
>> The REALLY bad thing about the content of these
comments is
>> we
>> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all
the
>> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of
instruction
>> and
>> poor instruction continues.
>>
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>> 509-969-3622
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson
>> <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division
List"
>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
>>
>>
>> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for
>> standing
>> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over
>> again.
>> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed
teachers
>> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when
time
>> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
>> Kirsten
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker
(NFBA)
>> <nfbarizona at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out
there
>> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
>>
>> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense
is
>> applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are
widely
>> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the
>> material
>> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind
kids.
>>
>> Allison
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education
Division
>> List
>> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>
>> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related
to
>> poor
>> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years
as
>> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their
students
>> exel
>> and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them
with
>> poor
>> skills.
>>
>> You cannot teach what you do not know and
>> students
>> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal
research
>> to
>> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a
>> foolish
>> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to
stand
>> up
>> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and
test
>> my
>> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a
teacher
>> with
>> good skills."
>>
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at
ESD105
>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>> 509-969-3622
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer
>> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Carrie Gilmer
<carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>> To: "'Professionals in Blindness
Education
>> Division List'" <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>
>>
>> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right
on.
>> Thank
>> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
Mackenstadt
>> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
>> To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>
>> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post
that
>> bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the
PIBE
>> list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like
this
>> comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind
kids.
>> Here
>> is the post and my response:
>>
>> Recently in response to a question
posted by
>> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published
>> research
>> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are
responsible
>> for
>> poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full
steam
>> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by
advocacy
>> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And
thus
>> far
>> no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being
made
>> that
>> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is
not
>> relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place
of
>> common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject
area,
>> for
>> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state
>> licensing
>> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As
a
>> parent
>> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not
read or
>> write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an
alternative
>> to
>> non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate
>> research
>> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices.
But
>> let
>> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.
>>
>> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
>>
>> Mackenstadt Rehab Services
>>
>> (206)419-9555
>>
>> cane.travel at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pibe-division mailing list
>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
or
>> get
>> your account info for Pibe-division:
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pibe-division mailing list
>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
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>> account info for Pibe-division:
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>
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>> account info for Pibe-division:
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
>> Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
>> Perandoe Special Education District
>> 1525 Locust
>> Red Bud, IL 62278
>> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104
>>
>>
>> This message and all attachments are confidential.
Any
>> review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the
>> intended
>> recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this
message
>> has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying
to
>> this
>> transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at
>> 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any
form)
>> without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail,
nothing in
>> this message should be construed as a digital or electronic
signature.
>> Thank
>> you. This information may be protected by the Health Insurance
>> Portability
>> and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other Federal laws.
Improper
>> or
>> unauthorized use or disclosure of this information could result in
civil
>> and/or criminal penalties.
>>
>>
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pibe-division mailing list
>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
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>> info for Pibe-division:
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>>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pibe-division mailing list
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>>
>>
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pibe-division mailing list
>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pibe-division mailing list
>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>> Pibe-division:
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone: 602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pibe-division mailing list
> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
> Pibe-division:
>
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 00:39:05 -0600
From: "Melissa Green" <graduate56 at juno.com>
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Message-ID: <9E1070BE89D444A29626E11D801DB4BA at melissa>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I agree with you alison.
This is why I would like to teach blind kids.
But I feel as if I am not given a chance to do this. Furthermore, I
don't believe that TBVI's who are not blind believe that blind or
visually impaired teachers can't teach students who are like
themselves.
Glad that we have dinese and others that are proving this misconception
as being incorrect.
Melissa Green
Giving up doesn't always mean you are weak; sometimes it means that you
are strong enough to let go.
Blog: http://readergirl5674.blogspot.com
Facebook: melissa green northern colorado
twitter: melissa5674
msn: graduate1531 at msn.com
Skype: lissa5674
live journal
topaz5674
Linked in
http://www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
----- Original Message -----
From: Allison Hilliker (NFBA)
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out there like you who
are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is applied when
many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely accepted as
educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the material they
teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids.
Allison
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to poor student
outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as anyone
else has in the field who has good skills and see their students exel
and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with
poor skills.
You cannot teach what you do not know and students cannot
learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research to
know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a
foolish notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going
to stand up and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills
are and test my students to show everyone how far behind they are
compared to a teacher with good skills."
Denise
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
wrote:
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education Division List'"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on. Thank you for
not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
Mackenstadt
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that bothered me. I
have responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE list. Every
time I think that we are making progress something like this comment is
used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids. Here is the
post and my response:
Recently in response to a question posted by Sheila one of
the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published research proving or
disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible for poor
braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full steam
ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by advocacy
groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus
far no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being
made that teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to
students is not relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot
take the place of common sense or best practice. I cannot think of
another subject area, for example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art,
where a decent state licensing entity will not expect an instructor to
demonstrate competence. As a parent I would be very concerned if my
child's English teacher could not read or write English. Let us not
throw out critical thinking as an alternative to non-existent DATA
Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate research and
legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But let
us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.
Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
Mackenstadt Rehab Services
(206)419-9555
cane.travel at gmail.com
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 07:48:53 -0500
From: "Hyde, David W. (ESC)" <david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us>
To: "'jobs at nfbnet.org'" <jobs at nfbnet.org>,
"'pibe-division at nfbnet.org'"<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>,
"'nobe-l at nfbnet.org'" <nobe-l at nfbnet.org>, 'National Federation of
the Blind of Wisconsin News List'<nfbwnews at nfbwis.org>, "wisconsin A.
C. Bl list (wisconsin at acb.org)"<wisconsin at acb.org>
Subject: [Pibe-division] FW: TVI position open in Madison,updated
application information
Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC12336DB573AADD at tiger>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Helland [mailto:bhelland at madison.k12.wi.us]
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 3:22 PM
To: Teachers of the visually impaired; Hyde, David W. (ESC)
Subject: TVI position open in Madison, updated application information
Teacher of Visually Impaired
Full time .5Regular Contract/,5Temporary Contract
Madison Metropolitan School District
Madison, Wisconsin
-Pre-Braille & Braille Instruction (Literary & Nemeth)
-Functional Vision Assessments
-Learning Media Assessments
-Assistive Technology
-Low Vision Strategies
-Write & implement IEPs
-Consultation with teams
-Travel between schools
Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction License 825, Visually
Impaired
To apply, go to:
https://empapp.madison.k12.wi.us/ats/app_login?COMPANY_ID=00005393
<https://empapp.madison.k12.wi.us/ats/app_login?COMPANY_ID=00005393>
Under View Available Jobs
Click Here to View Open Certified Positions
At the bottom of the list
VI Teacher .5Regular Contract/,5Temporary Contract
External applicants - click here to login and apply
<https://empapp.madison.k12.wi.us/ats/app_login.shtml?COMPANY_ID=00005393>
Bev Helland
Vision Program Support Teacher
Madison Metropolitan School District
545 West Dayton Street
Madison, WI 53703
Office: 608-663-8463
Cell: 608-516-6784
Fax: 608-204-0349
Email: bhelland at madison.k12.wi.us
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 08:56:59 -0700
From: Mary Willows <mwillows at csb-cde.ca.gov>
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] [spam] Re: Comment
Message-ID:
<8CEA95E15BA4B749A94ED1A3F6672AE302C4FDE6 at DCNMSG02.sssd.ca.gov>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Sheila,
I would just like to take this opportunity to wish you a happy and
healthy retirement. I know this is a bit off topic. You and Denise
have really stirred it up now.
I am aware of how terribly dedicated you have been to your students
for
the past 38 years and I want to make sure that you know that although
we
all come into this profession from different directions the bottom
line
is that we do the best we can. You saw the need and you answered the
call.
Congratulations on your retirement.
Sincerely,
Mary Willows, TVI
-----Original Message-----
From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dr. Denise M.
Robinson
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 5:04 PM
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
Subject: [spam] Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Sheila
I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind child
who
was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his
potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI
Denise
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
From: Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey
the scope of our - or our students' needs.
We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all
know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
We can have poor social skills
We can have poor mobility skills
Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am
trying to convey is that just as each of our students is an
individual... with unique talents and areas in need of further
development, so are teachers.
I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I
will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher
(introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
would panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth
in
and grin.
This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators
- or even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
from birth to 21 - or older
those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or
congenitally)
those with vision loss and multiple disabilities
in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a
daily basis.
I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high
level of proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing
the best they can with limited resources and lack of support from the
educational system as well as the parents and doctors.
We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily
news and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field
for not sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to
be excellent - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements.
Even without data (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet
the good apples in our field highly outnumber the bad ones.
The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the
teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain
the proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a
system of education that is broken, and how can we assure that
students
who graduate from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills
and knowledge that meet national criteria.
Sheila
From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division@nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments is we have
the
teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the incorrect
information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction and
poor
instruction continues.
Denise
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org> wrote:
From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for standing up
and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over
again.
It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed
teachers
included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time
allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
Kirsten
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)
<nfbarizona at gmail.com
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nfbarizona@gmail.com> >
wrote:
Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out there
like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is
applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely
accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the
material they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for
blind kids.
Allison
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com>
To: Professionals in Blindness Education
Division List
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division@nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to poor student outcomes. I
have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as anyone else has in
the field who has good skills and see their students exel and others
who
do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with poor skills.
You cannot teach what you do not know and students cannot learn what
you
cannot teach them. You do not need formal research to know this,
though
it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a foolish notion to
rest.
But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand up and say
"yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test my
students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a
teacher
with good skills."
Denise
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carrie.gilmer@gmail.com>
>
wrote:
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carrie.gilmer@gmail.com>
>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education Division List'"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division@nfbnet.org>
>
Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on. Thank you for not
being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
________________________________
From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division-bounces@nfbn
et.org> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division-bounces@nfbn
et.org> ] On Behalf Of Denise Mackenstadt
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division@nfbnet.org>
Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that bothered me. I have
responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE list. Every time
I
think that we are making progress something like this comment is used
to
justify not providing for the needs of blind kids. Here is the post
and
my response:
Recently in response to a question posted by Sheila one of the
posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published research proving or
disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible for poor
braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full steam
ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by
advocacy
groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus
far no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being
made that teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to
students is not relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot
take the place of common sense or best practice. I cannot think of
another subject area, for example: Language Arts, Math, Science or
Art,
where a decent state licensing entity will not expect an instructor to
demonstrate competence. As a parent I would be very concerned if my
child's English teacher could not read or write English. Let us not
throw out critical thinking as an alternative to non-existent DATA
Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate research and
legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But let
us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.
Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
Mackenstadt Rehab Services
(206)419-9555
cane.travel at gmail.com
<http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cane.travel@gmail.com>
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--
Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
Perandoe Special Education District
1525 Locust
Red Bud, IL 62278
(618) 282-6251 ext. 104
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 09:24:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Dr. Denise M. Robinson" <dmehlenbacher at yahoo.com>
To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
Message-ID: <458610.99457.qm at web52401.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Arielle,
I so agree. Maybe you and I can work with a university to do this
research. I have thought about it a long time, but the overwhelming
responsiblity of my job ---- 80+ work hours a week, has prevented me
from doing so. I am changing jobs next year so hope to further research
in the field on subjects such as this.
?????? Denise
?
Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
509-969-3622
--- On Tue, 6/8/10, Allison Hilliker (NFBA) <nfbarizona at gmail.com>
wrote:
From: Allison Hilliker (NFBA) <nfbarizona at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 6:22 AM
All,
I think that Arielle has a good point in her message below.? Since
some
educators are heavily focused on research and quantatative proof, ,
maybe
that's what we should give them.? I agree that research shouldn't be a
replacement for common sense, but since common sense is clearly
lacking,
we may have to resort to research.? ?And why not?? It can't? hurt to
have
some studies and stats to back us up when we advocate for our
students.? I
know that some folks have an inate distrust of research, but if its
conducted with an underlying positive philosophy and belief in high
expectations, I think we will be happy with the results.
Allison
---- Original Message -----
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
> Hi all,
>
> Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others
> have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when
> developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who
are
> competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching
> outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all
my
> life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that
> is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working
> with blind people, and I am aware that unjustified negative
attitudes
> can motivate many of these departures from common sense.
>
> However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid
> data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still
> nonexistent, and are? allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate
> student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a
> discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While
I
> know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't
see
> any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results
> can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.
> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational
> outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher
> competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better teachers
> would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but
> still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille
> proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can
> easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how
> teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps
over
> many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get
either
> good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious
> reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for
> extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the
> effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if
> researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can
> acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we
already
> know. I am disappointed that the lack of data is being used by
> proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those
> of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of
the
> data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data
we
> are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can
conclusively
> win, and our students and future students are paying the price.
>
> I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I
> haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I
would
> be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience
> working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been
> conducted? If not, how can we change that?
>
> Arielle
>
> On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response
would be
>> to
>> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors
that
>> could
>> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough
instructional
>> time
>> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would
like
>> to
>> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media
assessment
>> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would
use the
>> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should
be
>> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments
to a
>> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs
in
>> the
>> way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for
the
>> child?
>>
>> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the
best
>> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new)
technology... I
>> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training
in
>> how
>> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork
and
>> find
>> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more
>> networks
>> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they
were
>> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.
>>
>> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a
retired
>> TVI
>> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the
skills (or
>> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and
the
>> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and
heard
>> stories
>> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm
always
>> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a
situation
>> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching
>> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We
don't
>> have
>> any other pool to draw from.
>>
>> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40
>> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they
graduate
>> about
>> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old,
but
>> based
>> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or
8 or
>> 9
>> a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure
rate
>> in
>> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that
>> sparks
>> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students
pass
>> braille
>> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.
>>
>> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...
>>
>> Sheila
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM
>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>
>>? ? ???Sheila
>>
>>? ? ???I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a
blind
>> child
>> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet
his
>> potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? Denise
>>
>>? ? ???Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>? ? ???Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>? ? ???Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>? ? ???509-969-3622
>>
>>
>>? ? ???--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ???From: Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
>>? ? ? ???Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>? ? ? ???To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>? ? ? ???Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ???Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
>>
>>? ? ? ???We can have poor communication skills and not accurately
convey
>> the
>> scope of our - or our students' needs.
>>? ? ? ???We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
>>? ? ? ???We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we
all
>> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
>>? ? ? ???We can have poor social skills
>>? ? ? ???We can have poor mobility skills
>>
>>? ? ? ???Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I
am
>> trying
>> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual...
with
>> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are
teachers.
>>
>>? ? ? ???I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber,
but I
>> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better
teacher
>> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
would
>> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in
and
>> grin.
>>
>>? ? ? ???This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular
educators -
>> or
>> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
>>? ? ? ???from birth to 21 - or older
>>? ? ? ???those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
>>? ? ? ???those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously
or
>> congenitally)
>>? ? ? ???those with vision loss and multiple disabilities
>>? ? ? ???in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on
a
>> daily
>> basis.
>>
>>? ? ? ???I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high
level
>> of
>> proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the
best
>> they
>> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational
>> system
>> as well as the parents and doctors.
>>
>>? ? ? ???We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the
daily
>> news
>> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for
not
>> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be
>> excellent
>> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even
without
>> data
>> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples
in
>> our
>> field? highly outnumber the bad ones.
>>
>>? ? ? ???The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help
the
>> teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and
gain
>> the
>> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a
system
>> of
>> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who
>> graduate
>> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and
knowledge
>> that
>> meet national criteria.
>>
>>? ? ? ???Sheila
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ???From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>? ? ? ???Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
>>? ? ? ???To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>>? ? ? ???Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???The REALLY bad thing about the content of these
comments is
>> we
>> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all
the
>> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of
instruction
>> and
>> poor instruction continues.
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Denise
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???509-969-3622
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson
>> <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division
List"
>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for
>> standing
>> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over
>> again.
>> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed
teachers
>> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when
time
>> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Kirsten
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker
(NFBA)
>> <nfbarizona at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Well said, Denise!? I'm glad we have teachers out
there
>> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense
is
>> applied when many people teach blind kids.? Concepts that are
widely
>> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the
>> material
>> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind
kids.
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Allison
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???----- Original Message -----
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To: Professionals in Blindness Education
Division
>> List
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Poor teacher skills ARE directly related
to
>> poor
>> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years
as
>> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their
students
>> exel
>> and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them
with
>> poor
>> skills.
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???You cannot teach what you do not know and
>> students
>> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal
research
>> to
>> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a
>> foolish
>> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to
stand
>> up
>> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and
test
>> my
>> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a
teacher
>> with
>> good skills."
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Denise
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Coordinator for Blind/VI students at
ESD105
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???509-969-3622
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???--- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer
>> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???From: Carrie Gilmer
<carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To: "'Professionals in Blindness
Education
>> Division List'" <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Right on Denise, exactly dead on right
on.
>> Thank
>> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
Mackenstadt
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Recently on AERnet I noticed a post
that
>> bothered me.? I have responded and I am sending this response to the
PIBE
>> list.? Every time I think that we are making progress something like
this
>> comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind
kids.
>> Here
>> is the post and my response:
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Recently in response to a question
posted by
>> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1.? still no published
>> research
>> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are
responsible
>> for
>> poor braille outcomes for students.? Nevertheless,? we've gone full
steam
>> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist.? Assertions by
advocacy
>> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches.? We need DATA.? And
thus
>> far
>> no data exists."? I find it astonishing that an assertion is being
made
>> that
>> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is
not
>> relevant to student outcomes.? Lack of Data? cannot???take the place
of
>> common sense or best practice.? I cannot think of another subject
area,
>> for
>> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state
>> licensing
>> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence.? As
a
>> parent
>> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not
read or
>> write English.? Let us not throw out critical thinking as an
alternative
>> to
>> non-existent DATA Collection.? I do not want to say that legitimate
>> research
>> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices.?
But
>> let
>> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Mackenstadt Rehab Services
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(206)419-9555
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???cane.travel at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To unsubscribe, change your list options
or
>> get
>> your account info for Pibe-division:
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???_______________________________________________
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
your
>> account info for Pibe-division:
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???_______________________________________________
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???--
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Perandoe Special Education District
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???1525 Locust
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Red Bud, IL 62278
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(618) 282-6251 ext. 104
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???This message and all attachments are confidential.
Any
>> review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the
>> intended
>> recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this
message
>> has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying
to
>> this
>> transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at
>> 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any
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>> without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail,
nothing in
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Improper
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>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???_______________________________________________
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>
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>> info for Pibe-division:
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>>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>? ? ? ???_______________________________________________
>>? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list
>>? ? ? ???Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>? ? ?
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>>? ? ? ???To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>> for Pibe-division:
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>>
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>>
>>
>>? ? ? ???-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>>
>>? ? ? ???_______________________________________________
>>? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list
>>? ? ? ???Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>? ? ?
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>>? ? ? ???To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
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>
>
> --
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:? 602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pibe-division mailing list
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