[Quietcars] Hybrid vehicles' silence seen as posing peril, MSNBC.com, June 8, 2009

Thu Jun 11 13:45:56 UTC 2009

It is a better person who posts as you have rather than throwing insulting
and childish comments toward a lister who's been handling a guide dog for
many years, who travels independently as you do, follows etiquette of the
road and knows about hybrids and understands the situation we all, blind,
hard of hearing, etc., are in.  

If you keep up with the news, you'll find that manufacturers are making
efforts to make their cars both safer and eco-friendly.  Legislators are
introducing valuable pieces of legislation in the house and senate to try
and come to some kind of a decision as to how to make hybrids friendlier to
pedestrians.,  blindness organizations, such as the NFB and ACB are working
together to try and find a solution by lobbying to pass laws to aid in this
process as well.  Two current manufacturers have solutions to the hybrid
issue, but both of these have issues, one of which is that the driver can
turn the systems on and off at will, which, in effect, may not provide the
plausible solution ne3eded.  

My head is not in my "butt" as Mr., Bradley suggests, but on top of my
shoulders, listening, reading, talking about, working in the streets with
and understanding this hybrid situation.,  

If you want to resort to fourth grade language ad insults, that's bot m
game.  I have been an advocate for access in all ways for years and know
what of I speak.  I joined this list to learn about what your organization
is doing, and am on a few guide dog lists and other blindness lists and
frequently participate in discussions on those lists concerning the hybrid
and other blindness issues.,  

I will not stop voicing my opinion, as it is as val8uable as anyone else's
on this list.  

-----Original Message-----
From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:24 AM
To: Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Hybrid vehicles' silence seen as posing
peril,MSNBC.com, June 8, 2009

Thanks for posting your comment. I too, am a responsible traveler and have
been for many years. I am a cane user and travel independently regularly
across the country using local transportation as needed. As a pedestrian I
observe and follow the same rules of the road that drivers do and have
observed many of them doing very foolish things. I take the same pride in my
mobility skills that a trucker would take in the number of miles driven
without an accident. However, I have had a couple of close calls with quiet
cars. Fortunately, the only result was a bent cane. However, I believe that
manufacturers and designers need to be held responsible for adequate safety
standards under all conditions. Making hybrid cars pedestrian friendly is
not any different then requiring seat belts/shoulder harnesses, air bags or
the ability to meet emission standards. Instead of worrying about the
negative tone of these articles we need to form a coalition with these
groups and make sure that the demands that protect the safety of the public
as a whole including children, elderly and emergency response workers as a
whole are met. We do not need to be selling out to manufacturers who are
making exorbitant profits at our expense.
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message -----
From: "dewey bradley" <dewey.bradley at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety" 
<quietcars at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Hybrid vehicles' silence seen as posing
peril,MSNBC.com, June 8, 2009

> pull your head out of your butt, I've almost gotten hit by one of 
> these things.
> Or are you going to tell me that I just can't travel or something.
> Are you one of these people that think that if they have not seen 
> something them selves, then It doesnt exist?
> I know someone else like this, he thinks that because he has  a job, 
> that everyone else that can't find one are just being lazy.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "michael townsend" <mrtownsend at optonline.net>
> To: "'Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety'" 
> <quietcars at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Hybrid vehicles' silence seen as posing 
> peril, MSNBC.com, June 8, 2009
>
>
>>I really think that what needs to be done here is that all writers 
>>have to  get on the same page.
>>
>> Most hybrid cars have badges denoting that they are hybrids.
>>
>> Blindness organizations have to understand that safety is a key issue 
>> here, but that peole are working on testing, legislation, the type of 
>> arrangements that will solve the issue, and we as a community have to 
>> become more familiar with the vehicles.
>>
>> Several dog guide schools have these cars in their fleets in order to 
>> train students and dogs to react to them.
>>
>> State agencies who offer cane travel should allow students to see a 
>> hybrid up close so that they too can know what the hybrid is all 
>> about.
>>
>> Hard of hearing, the elderly, bicyclists, these emergency workers, 
>> etc., all are effected.
>>
>> The term silent killer is way overblown, and I do not accept this.  
>> It is sensational journalism, a tool which has been used to slant the 
>> news and evoke an emotional response as long as reporters have been 
>> writing stories.
>>
>>
>> The ACB and NFB have been working together to try and put forth 
>> legislation, as have several of our concerned congress and senate 
>> representatives to find a solution to this issue.  But, as a person 
>> first, and a person who happens not to see, who travels with a dog, 
>> I'll tell you that I'm growing tired of these articles written with 
>> the pity party in mind.  You may not like what I have to say, but I 
>> am an advocate for the blind, for access and safety, and I find this 
>> abhorrent and offensive that the tone continues to be, "look what 
>> they're doing to us."
>>
>> I appreciate everyone's effort to try and work through the issues 
>> that concern us regarding this, but news displays like this, in my 
>> very humble opinion, don't do anything but drive a wedge between the 
>> auto manufacturers, the public and we who need to be more proactive 
>> rather than reactive as this article appears to revealing.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 7:19 PM
>> To: 'quietcars at nfbnet.org'
>> Subject: [Quietcars] Hybrid vehicles' silence seen as posing peril, 
>> MSNBC.com, June 8, 2009
>>
>>
>> Link:
>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31112317/from/ET/
>>
>> Text:
>> Hybrid vehicles' silence seen as posing peril Emergency workers share 
>> concern of advocates for blind over quiet motors By Alex Johnson 
>> Monday, June 8, 2009
>>
>> As the car crept up to them, the students didn't react. It wasn't 
>> until it was about to run them over that they even knew it was there. 
>> And that was only because it hit their white canes.
>>
>> The hybrid car's electric motor had kicked in. And the students, all 
>> of whom are blind, couldn't hear it.
>>
>> "It came up, and it was right there. We had no idea it was even coming,"
>> said Chad Wilburn, one of students, who took part in a demonstration 
>> of the new hazard posed by the quiet hybrid vehicles earlier this 
>> year in Salt Lake City by the Utah Center for the Blind.
>>
>> Advocates for the sight-impaired say the vroom of a conventional 
>> engine is the only sure way a blind pedestrian can know that he or 
>> she may be walking into the path of an approaching car. They have 
>> been pushing for safety measures for several years, and Congress is 
>> considering a bill that would order the Transportation Department to 
>> make sure hybrids and the coming generation of all-electric vehicles 
>> make enough noise to be heard.
>>
>> But they're not the only ones worried about the silence. Emergency 
>> workers are raising the alarm, too, saying it can be hard to tell 
>> whether a hybrid's engine is still running at the scene of an 
>> accident.
>>
>> "If it's in gear, it can lurch forward and injure someone," said 
>> James Surrell, a physician at Marquette General Hospital in Michigan, 
>> who teaches hybrid safety classes for rescue workers and emergency 
>> medical technicians.
>>
>> Hybrids' electronic motors offer several other challenges for 
>> emergency workers at the scene of an accident. The biggest is that 
>> they are electronic motors.
>>
>> In addition to a standard 12-volt battery under the hood, a typical 
>> hybrid engine uses another battery under the back seat that packs as 
>> many as 600 volts - more than enough to cause instantaneous death.
>>
>> There have been no documented reports of any emergency worker's 
>> having been electrocuted by a hybrid battery in the United States. 
>> But in literature they publish for emergency responders, nearly all 
>> manufacturers include vivid warnings like this one in the 
>> first-response manual for the Nissan Altima Hybrid: "Failure to 
>> disable the high voltage electrical system before emergency response 
>> procedures are performed may result in serious injury or death from 
>> electrical shock."
>>
>> First puzzle: Is it a hybrid?
>>
>> On the road, government safety tests indicate that hybrid vehicles 
>> are just as safe as their gas-powered counterparts. Any concerns come 
>> from what to do once one of them has been in an accident.
>>
>> The high-voltage batteries are thoroughly sealed in protective metal, 
>> and there is little chance that they could leak or explode. In fact, 
>> hybrid engines are packed with automatic sensors designed to stop the 
>> flow of electricity on impact or whenever the side-impact air bags
deploy.
>>
>> But that assumes the sensors themselves haven't been damaged.
>>
>> In its guide for emergency responders, Toyota, whose Prius 
>> popularized hybrids in the United States, warns crews to "never 
>> assume the Prius is shut off simply because it is silent."
>>
>> Emergency agencies across the nation have added specialized training 
>> for workers responding to accident scenes involving hybrids, like a 
>> hybrid safety seminar last month at the Lamar Institute of Technology 
>> in Beaumont, Texas. That's because "we're worried about forced entry 
>> into a hybrid and using the jaws of life," said Brad Pennison, a 
>> captain with the Beaumont Fire Department.
>>
>> At these seminars, crews learn that the first difficulty is 
>> recognizing that a vehicle is, in fact, a hybrid, which calls for 
>> different procedures.
>>
>> Most contemporary hybrids are built to resemble their conventional 
>> counterparts - a design philosophy the industry calls "mainstreaming."
>> Many
>> can be identified only by a badge or a small logo; if that's damaged 
>> or hidden by debris or another vehicle, rescue crews may have no 
>> obvious clue that there's a high-voltage battery lurking in the 
>> wreckage.
>>
>> If the "hybrid" badge is missing from the door of its Silverado and 
>> Sierra trucks, Chevrolet details a four-step inspection process that 
>> crews should follow to determine whether they're dealing with a 
>> hybrid or a conventional engine. Steps 3 and 4 require opening the 
>> hood, assuming the emergency workers can get to it.
>>
>> Saturn, meanwhile, suggests finding the vehicle identification number 
>> on its Vue sport utility. "If the eighth digit is a five (5), this 
>> signifies the vehicle is a Hybrid," its responder guide says.
>>
>> Just how do you turn this thing off?
>>
>> Once crews know they're dealing with a hybrid, the next step is to 
>> make sure it's turned off. All manufacturers say simply switching off 
>> the ignition and removing the key is the best way to disable the 
>> system. But that's not foolproof.
>>
>> For example, even when the motors are disabled, "power remains in the 
>> high voltage electrical system for 5 minutes after the HV electrical 
>> system is shut off" in the Prius, Toyota says. On the Lexus GS450h, 
>> it can be as long as 10 minutes.
>>
>> And those instructions assume that the key or the ignition system is 
>> accessible. If it isn't, the next option is to disable the standard 
>> 12-volt battery, blocking power to the bigger, more dangerous 
>> battery.
>>
>> Different vehicles have different ways to do that, information that 
>> rescuers must either know when they arrive at the scene of an 
>> accident or be able to quickly retrieve.
>>
>> On Honda hybrids, crews are advised to remove the main fuse (they 
>> must have a Phillips-head screwdriver handy) and cut both cables on 
>> the 12-volt battery.
>>
>> On Lexus' GS450h, however, they have to remove a yellow fuse in the 
>> engine junction compartment block. On the Lexus RX400h, it's a red 
>> fuse. But on the Lexus LH600h L, they should remove the IG2 relay.
>>
>> Other hybrids call for non-intuitive steps that crews must take 
>> before they can even try to disconnect the 12-volt battery. In the 
>> Nissan Altima, for instance, they first have to move the power seats 
>> and operate the power trunk release.
>>
>> 'You need to know these little things'
>>
>> If, in the worst case, emergency workers have to go near the big 
>> battery cables, they're generally in luck. Nearly all hybrids 
>> color-code their battery lines in orange, an easy visual clue. But in 
>> some Saturns, some of the cables are blue.
>>
>> The color isn't set by any law, meaning not only that there isn't 100 
>> percent consistency, but there's no guarantee that manufacturers 
>> planning to enter the market will observe the unofficial orange 
>> standard.
>>
>> Complications like that mean emergency crews have to take extra time 
>> to assess an accident scene, even if injured victims need rescuing.
>>
>> "There's this tremendous amount of electrical energy," said Surrell, 
>> of Marquette General Hospital. "You need to know these little things 
>> about hybrids because of the potential electrical danger to the 
>> victim of the accident and the rescuer alike."
>>
>> Sidebar:
>> How quiet is a hybrid?
>> Researchers at the University of California-Riverside found last year 
>> that the margin of safety for blind pedestrians was 74 percent less 
>> when a hybrid was approaching silently, compared to a vehicle with a 
>> conventional engine.
>> Subjects could correctly judge the approach of a conventional car 
>> when it was about 28 feet away, but they couldn't detect a hybrid 
>> until it was 7 feet away - or about one second from running them over.
>>
>>
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