[Quietcars] Bob Wilson and others contributing.

[Deborah Kent Stein]

Thank you, Mary Ellen, for your thoughtful and articulate summation of the 
issues for cane and dog guide users.  As a former dog guide handler, I 
believe that the stress factor for dog guides will be very high in an 
environment where quiet cars are common.  We really don't know about the 
long-term effects of this kind of stress because hybrids and electric 
vehicles are still a relatively small percentage of the vehicles on the 
road.

Debbie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mary Ellen" <gabias at telus.net>
To: "'Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety'" 
<quietcars at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Bob Wilson and others contributing.


> You raise an interesting point. In my view, cane travel and guide dog use
> are not just different mobility tools; they're fundamentally different
> approaches to how blind people move through the world.
> Blind people using canes approach the world nonvisually. The cane acts as 
> an
> extension to the arm; we "feel" what's in front of us. We hear feedback 
> from
> the environment around us by listening to the sound the cane makes as we
> move it. If there's an obstacle in our path, contacting it with our cane
> alerts us to avoid touching it painfully with our bodies. All the mental
> work of orientation comes into play, but the cane is just a tool for
> extending our reach.
> A guide dog is a canine sighted guide. We have control over what it does 
> and
> how it works. This is different from working with a human guide; we 
> wouldn't
> want to order a human around the way we must do with a dog. The dog uses 
> its
> vision to guide us around obstacles. Orientation is still vital; after 
> all,
> we do the complex thinking. The dog just handles obstacle avoidance. I say
> "just" not to disparage such an important function. I use the word to 
> point
> out that the more complex questions of deciding where to go and how to
> interpret the environment are the responsibility of the blind handler. 
> (When
> traveling with a sighted human guide, these decisions are much more
> democratic.)
> Quiet cars pose a much different challenge for cane and dog users. We 
> don't
> want to get close enough to a moving car to use the extended touch 
> function
> of a cane. Yet the chief tool we use for understanding the environment out
> of arm's reach (or cane's reach) is our hearing. Because these cars are so
> quiet, hearing is not a viable method for discerning their presence. So 
> what
> other method can we use?
> With a guide dog, we have the animal's eyesight available to us. In many
> ways, that's an asset. In other ways, it's a serious problem.
> A dog's sight is an asset because the dog can avoid obstacles at a 
> distance.
> Dogs are taught to think of moving obstacles, such as cars, as things to 
> be
> avoided. They see quiet cars; they avoid quiet cars. The problem comes 
> when
> the blind handler orders the dog "forward" not knowing that a quiet car is
> whooshing past. Dogs are trained to intelligently disobey their handlers, 
> If
> the dog could put its thoughts into words, the question might sound
> something like this. "Do I obey my master who's getting royally ticked off
> at me for not doing what I'm told, or do I stay put until that Prius
> passes?"
> Intelligent disobedience is uncomfortable for the dog and confusing for 
> the
> handler. Sometimes we learn why the animal disobeyed. At other times we
> don't know whether the dog had a good reason or is just being a "bad dog."
> An occasional incident does no harm; in fact, it increases the trusting 
> bond
> between dog and handler. But if these incidents are common, and if the 
> blind
> person really can't determine whether the dog was disobeying intelligently
> or just disobeying, the team could break down. That's the serious problem
> guide dog trainers and handlers must solve. Cane users have no way of
> detecting quiet cars; they're effectively invisible to us. It's a stark, 
> but
> simple, problem. Guide dog users have the safety margin of using the dog's
> vision to detect silent vehicles. They have the more complex problem of
> insecurity resulting from repeated, and unexplainable, instances of dogs
> disobeying commands. The cane traveler's difficulty is physical; the guide
> dog team's difficulty could become relational.
> Parking lots and driveways pose additional problem for both groups, as 
> well
> as for the sighted public.
> At an intersection, it's relatively easy for a sighted individual to avoid 
> a
> pedestrian accident with a quiet car. The pedestrian is, or at least 
> should
> be, on the watch for automobiles in intersections. At intersections with
> large traffic volume, there's usually enough noise to know which direction
> has the right of way. Intersections without traffic lights and with a low
> volume of traffic are dangerous for pedestrians who cannot hear quiet cars
> coming.
> Parking lots and driveways are a danger for all. In a parking lot, cars 
> can
> move in a variety of directions. Sometimes they approach from the rear. 
> When
> they do, the noise they make is essential for everyone. Cars backing out 
> of
> driveways are hazardous because drivers have blind spots and don't
> necessarily see the pedestrian walking past on the sidewalk. If 
> pedestrians
> aren't alerted to the motion of the car by the sound of its engine, the
> results can be disastrous.
> I travel with a cane, and I've worked with a dog in the past. I see the
> problems of quiet cars as being most acute, in the physical sense, for 
> cane
> users. The problems for guide dog teams are more complex; there are
> implications for the team that go beyond avoiding a particular car at a
> particular intersection. For either group, hearing cars would solve the
> problem. For sighted pedestrians, car noise adds a margin of safety. Deaf
> individuals have developed techniques to alert themselves to cars 
> visually.
> I'm guessing, though I haven't ever discussed it with a deaf person, that
> they are constantly scanning their environment visually. This probably 
> means
> constant head turning in parking lots. (I haven't even begun thinking of 
> the
> issue for cyclists, though as a mother of boys who aren't always as
> observant as I'd like them to be it worries me.)
> I don't know if these thoughts have answered your question at all. Of 
> course
> I agree that we must all inform ourselves as much as possible about this 
> new
> technology. That education need not extend to learning technical
> specifications about each model. We need to know what cars sound like at
> different speeds and under what conditions they're inaudible to us.
> Over time, cars may become smart enough to avoid pedestrians through the
> kind of systems I've read about on this list. It's in everyone's best
> interest to make cars as crash proof as possible and blind people will
> benefit, along with everybody else, as this technology improves. In the
> meantime, I need to be able to use my own hearing and thinking to help me
> travel. That involves training and confidence. It also involves technology
> (such as a simple car noise) that helps me use what I know to keep me 
> safe.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of michael townsend
> Sent: September 23, 2009 9:27 AM
> To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Quietcars] Bob Wilson and others contributing.
> Sensitivity: Personal
>
>
> I read both articles submitted today with interest, and, in the second
> article, which featured commentary by selected designers of Nissan's war
> with noise both for and against, and by representatives of Japanese blind
> organizations, again, there was no mention of how blindness orgs who train
> guide dogs to work with hybrid cars.  It is not just the cane user who is 
> at
> risk here, but it would seem as if the cane traveler was the only concern 
> of
> the NFB and other blindness orgs.  Both ACB and the NFB have dog guide 
> users
> as members, and I am wondering how much input guide dog handlers have into
> this mix.
>
> Could it be that a guide dog is trained to work on motion and acts as eyes
> for the handlers and is trained to intelligently disobey commands to 
> proceed
> forward into the path of the car, thus keeping the handler safer than a 
> cane
> traveler might be?  Assuming that is true, then, why wouldn't a sighted
> pedestrian be as safe as a guide dog team?
>
> These are just questions I have for anyone who is part of a study who may
> have actual guide dog handling experience.  I don't want to hear any 
> purely
> negative responses from someone on list, as I have in the past, stating 
> that
> I'm putting myself above anyone else, as I'm not.  I travel as do you cane
> travelers on city streets, take buses and trains and frequent shops, 
> museums
> and businesses and will be put in as much potential harm as you with 
> regard
> to these noiseless carriages, but I work with the tools I'm given and am
> blessed to work with a dog and I don't use terms like Silent Killer to
> endeavor to promote safety.
>
> I look forward to the accident studies that the government is undertaking,
> and to further research by Nissan and other companies who are trying to 
> get
> a handle on this problem, but whenever the results are compiled, it may be 
> a
> couple years until such measures are implemented.  I say again that those
> blind organizations who are making the most noise should endeavor to get 
> the
> persons who may be effected to be more familiar with the hybrid until such
> safety measures are implemented. It seems that there is a very 
> narrow-minded
> focus going on here, and that there is a lot more open-mindedness that 
> need
> be pursued.
>
>
>
> "I am accustomed to hearing malicious falsehoods about myself...but I 
> think
> I have a right to resent, to object to, libelous statements about my dog."
> -Franklin D. Roosevelt Mike Townsend and Seeing Eye dog Brent Dunellen, 
> New
> Jersey  08812
> emails:  mrtownsend at optonline.net;
> michael.townsend54 at gmail.com
> Home Phone:  732  200-5643
> Cellular:  732  718-9480
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Quietcars mailing list
> Quietcars at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/quietcars_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Quietcars:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/quietcars_nfbnet.org/gabias%40telus.ne
> t
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Quietcars mailing list
> Quietcars at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/quietcars_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Quietcars:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/quietcars_nfbnet.org/dkent5817%40worldnet.att.net