[Quietcars] Bob Wilson and others contributing.

Thu Sep 24 20:09:13 UTC 2009

Deb and all:

As a dog handler for over 35 years I very well know how transportation needs
and modalities have been changing over time, and I certainly appreciated
Maryellen's most appropriate post to this list.  

I believe that in any situation, whether it a cane traveler or a dog guide
handler, we must all be proactive when it comes to change, and not overtax
our systems if at all possible.  

This is why the more well funded dog guide schools have probably purchased
or leased a hybrid so that their training can be more complete as it
includes the hybrid in its arsenal of training tools. And, this is why state
agencies who employ O&M persons must stress that when they instruct cane
travelers, they must allow them to become familiar with a hybrid vehicle, as
one never knows when one may come across such a vehicle in their travels.  

As our nation has grown in numbers, of persons, so have the number of cars
increased on our streets, necessitating different rules of travel,
enlargement of streets, and with that comes pollution of our atmosphere.
One way to have cut down on this pollution is a cleaner burning gasoline
engine, but the newest piece of this "green" puzzle is the hybrid.  

It is necessary that we come to terms with this vehicle, as it may not be
the ultimate step in our survival as motorist, but it may be a stepping
stone which might lead to all electric cars or the hydrogen celled vehicle,
both of which are totally silent, and this presents still another challenge
which our advocates and lobbyist must try and remedy.  

We do playa major role in the future success of legislation by being
proactive and responding in numbers to whatever pieces of legislation are
passed, and whether we go along with the ideology of an organization or go
it alone, we need to voice our opinion, but it must be an informed one.  

Having utilized both a cane and a dog, I understand both sides.  But, being
a car nut, I understand the piece that many of the people whom are effected
by these vehicles don't or won't understand.  

Thanks for your well thought out post, Mary3ellen and I hope that many more
like it are posted here.  

Mike T in NJ

-----Original Message-----
From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Deborah Kent Stein
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:25 PM
To: Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Bob Wilson and others contributing.

Thank you, Mary Ellen, for your thoughtful and articulate summation of the
issues for cane and dog guide users.  As a former dog guide handler, I
believe that the stress factor for dog guides will be very high in an
environment where quiet cars are common.  We really don't know about the
long-term effects of this kind of stress because hybrids and electric
vehicles are still a relatively small percentage of the vehicles on the
road.

Debbie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Ellen" <gabias at telus.net>
To: "'Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety'" 
<quietcars at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Bob Wilson and others contributing.

> You raise an interesting point. In my view, cane travel and guide dog use
> are not just different mobility tools; they're fundamentally different
> approaches to how blind people move through the world.
> Blind people using canes approach the world nonvisually. The cane acts as 
> an
> extension to the arm; we "feel" what's in front of us. We hear feedback 
> from
> the environment around us by listening to the sound the cane makes as we
> move it. If there's an obstacle in our path, contacting it with our cane
> alerts us to avoid touching it painfully with our bodies. All the mental
> work of orientation comes into play, but the cane is just a tool for
> extending our reach.
> A guide dog is a canine sighted guide. We have control over what it does 
> and
> how it works. This is different from working with a human guide; we 
> wouldn't
> want to order a human around the way we must do with a dog. The dog uses 
> its
> vision to guide us around obstacles. Orientation is still vital; after 
> all,
> we do the complex thinking. The dog just handles obstacle avoidance. I say
> "just" not to disparage such an important function. I use the word to 
> point
> out that the more complex questions of deciding where to go and how to
> interpret the environment are the responsibility of the blind handler. 
> (When
> traveling with a sighted human guide, these decisions are much more
> democratic.)
> Quiet cars pose a much different challenge for cane and dog users. We 
> don't
> want to get close enough to a moving car to use the extended touch 
> function
> of a cane. Yet the chief tool we use for understanding the environment out
> of arm's reach (or cane's reach) is our hearing. Because these cars are so
> quiet, hearing is not a viable method for discerning their presence. So 
> what
> other method can we use?
> With a guide dog, we have the animal's eyesight available to us. In many
> ways, that's an asset. In other ways, it's a serious problem.
> A dog's sight is an asset because the dog can avoid obstacles at a 
> distance.
> Dogs are taught to think of moving obstacles, such as cars, as things to 
> be
> avoided. They see quiet cars; they avoid quiet cars. The problem comes 
> when
> the blind handler orders the dog "forward" not knowing that a quiet car is
> whooshing past. Dogs are trained to intelligently disobey their handlers, 
> If
> the dog could put its thoughts into words, the question might sound
> something like this. "Do I obey my master who's getting royally ticked off
> at me for not doing what I'm told, or do I stay put until that Prius
> passes?"
> Intelligent disobedience is uncomfortable for the dog and confusing for 
> the
> handler. Sometimes we learn why the animal disobeyed. At other times we
> don't know whether the dog had a good reason or is just being a "bad dog."
> An occasional incident does no harm; in fact, it increases the trusting 
> bond
> between dog and handler. But if these incidents are common, and if the 
> blind
> person really can't determine whether the dog was disobeying intelligently
> or just disobeying, the team could break down. That's the serious problem
> guide dog trainers and handlers must solve. Cane users have no way of
> detecting quiet cars; they're effectively invisible to us. It's a stark, 
> but
> simple, problem. Guide dog users have the safety margin of using the dog's
> vision to detect silent vehicles. They have the more complex problem of
> insecurity resulting from repeated, and unexplainable, instances of dogs
> disobeying commands. The cane traveler's difficulty is physical; the guide
> dog team's difficulty could become relational.
> Parking lots and driveways pose additional problem for both groups, as 
> well
> as for the sighted public.
> At an intersection, it's relatively easy for a sighted individual to avoid

> a
> pedestrian accident with a quiet car. The pedestrian is, or at least 
> should
> be, on the watch for automobiles in intersections. At intersections with
> large traffic volume, there's usually enough noise to know which direction
> has the right of way. Intersections without traffic lights and with a low
> volume of traffic are dangerous for pedestrians who cannot hear quiet cars
> coming.
> Parking lots and driveways are a danger for all. In a parking lot, cars 
> can
> move in a variety of directions. Sometimes they approach from the rear. 
> When
> they do, the noise they make is essential for everyone. Cars backing out 
> of
> driveways are hazardous because drivers have blind spots and don't
> necessarily see the pedestrian walking past on the sidewalk. If 
> pedestrians
> aren't alerted to the motion of the car by the sound of its engine, the
> results can be disastrous.
> I travel with a cane, and I've worked with a dog in the past. I see the
> problems of quiet cars as being most acute, in the physical sense, for 
> cane
> users. The problems for guide dog teams are more complex; there are
> implications for the team that go beyond avoiding a particular car at a
> particular intersection. For either group, hearing cars would solve the
> problem. For sighted pedestrians, car noise adds a margin of safety. Deaf
> individuals have developed techniques to alert themselves to cars 
> visually.
> I'm guessing, though I haven't ever discussed it with a deaf person, that
> they are constantly scanning their environment visually. This probably 
> means
> constant head turning in parking lots. (I haven't even begun thinking of 
> the
> issue for cyclists, though as a mother of boys who aren't always as
> observant as I'd like them to be it worries me.)
> I don't know if these thoughts have answered your question at all. Of 
> course
> I agree that we must all inform ourselves as much as possible about this 
> new
> technology. That education need not extend to learning technical
> specifications about each model. We need to know what cars sound like at
> different speeds and under what conditions they're inaudible to us.
> Over time, cars may become smart enough to avoid pedestrians through the
> kind of systems I've read about on this list. It's in everyone's best
> interest to make cars as crash proof as possible and blind people will
> benefit, along with everybody else, as this technology improves. In the
> meantime, I need to be able to use my own hearing and thinking to help me
> travel. That involves training and confidence. It also involves technology
> (such as a simple car noise) that helps me use what I know to keep me 
> safe.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of michael townsend
> Sent: September 23, 2009 9:27 AM
> To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Quietcars] Bob Wilson and others contributing.
> Sensitivity: Personal
>
>
> I read both articles submitted today with interest, and, in the second
> article, which featured commentary by selected designers of Nissan's war
> with noise both for and against, and by representatives of Japanese blind
> organizations, again, there was no mention of how blindness orgs who train
> guide dogs to work with hybrid cars.  It is not just the cane user who is 
> at
> risk here, but it would seem as if the cane traveler was the only concern 
> of
> the NFB and other blindness orgs.  Both ACB and the NFB have dog guide 
> users
> as members, and I am wondering how much input guide dog handlers have into
> this mix.
>
> Could it be that a guide dog is trained to work on motion and acts as eyes
> for the handlers and is trained to intelligently disobey commands to 
> proceed
> forward into the path of the car, thus keeping the handler safer than a 
> cane
> traveler might be?  Assuming that is true, then, why wouldn't a sighted
> pedestrian be as safe as a guide dog team?
>
> These are just questions I have for anyone who is part of a study who may
> have actual guide dog handling experience.  I don't want to hear any 
> purely
> negative responses from someone on list, as I have in the past, stating 
> that
> I'm putting myself above anyone else, as I'm not.  I travel as do you cane
> travelers on city streets, take buses and trains and frequent shops, 
> museums
> and businesses and will be put in as much potential harm as you with 
> regard
> to these noiseless carriages, but I work with the tools I'm given and am
> blessed to work with a dog and I don't use terms like Silent Killer to
> endeavor to promote safety.
>
> I look forward to the accident studies that the government is undertaking,
> and to further research by Nissan and other companies who are trying to 
> get
> a handle on this problem, but whenever the results are compiled, it may be

> a
> couple years until such measures are implemented.  I say again that those
> blind organizations who are making the most noise should endeavor to get 
> the
> persons who may be effected to be more familiar with the hybrid until such
> safety measures are implemented. It seems that there is a very 
> narrow-minded
> focus going on here, and that there is a lot more open-mindedness that 
> need
> be pursued.
>
>
>
> "I am accustomed to hearing malicious falsehoods about myself...but I 
> think
> I have a right to resent, to object to, libelous statements about my dog."
> -Franklin D. Roosevelt Mike Townsend and Seeing Eye dog Brent Dunellen, 
> New
> Jersey  08812
> emails:  mrtownsend at optonline.net;
> michael.townsend54 at gmail.com
> Home Phone:  732  200-5643
> Cellular:  732  718-9480
>
>
>
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